How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[Wilf]

do you mean will any of them become tory treasurer?

That job's more suited to the dead.

 

[Pickman's model]

That job's more suited to the dead.

the best government is a government of the dead.

 

[teqniq]

Pretty much the whole story of 'elite level' nonces from Smith onwards could probably be told in the brefings between the security services, Chief Secretaries and the PM (along with the Whip's Office and their role in controlling/blackmailing MPs). There's a long list of people who would have 'known', including MPs, but each PM and/or Home Secretary would have had something like chapter and verse on the parliamentary nonces on their watch.

First thing this morning on Radio 6 I heard the Cabinet secretary during Thatchers administration basically saying the whole thing was a load of bollox. With all the stuff that's floating around including stuff on here I find it vanishingly unlikely that (a) it was untrue and (b) that he did not know. What amazes me is that he could come out with such a flat rebuttal. It does not bode well for any enquiry unless it actually has teeth.

 

[Kalfindin]

Or disinformation.

Or the name leaked out of MI5 in some other context.

Or... what's the source for it being his codename anyway?

Or...

Why would Chris Fay(the guy in the video) want to put out disinformation ?

How would this benefit him ?

The name is from Republican sources.

 

[elbows]

Or disinformation.

Or the name leaked out of MI5 in some other context.

Or... what's the source for it being his codename anyway?

Or...

Half the reason I am cautious about many details of many alleged cases is the possibility that for all we know much of the attention is falling on stuff that may have been created for a range of purposes other than the truth, back in the day. Some politicians who were abusers have probably never featured in any of the historical rumours, or the modern whispers, and I'd like to see some of those prosecuted if at all possible.

 

[laptop]

Why would Chris Fay(the guy in the video) want to put out disinformation ?

elbows says he did not put it out and doesn't believe it.

I reposed that just up there ^ for those who don't, can't or won't search.

You know better?

 

[elbows]

Why would Chris Fay(the guy in the video) want to put out disinformation ?

How would this benefit him ?

It's not that simple. Even if we assume he and NAYPIC were beyond repute, he was given information by others, and would have been unable to get cast-iron confirmation of some crucial details. His own contemporary description of what the list was, and was not, does not cover all these possibilities, but it is suitably cautious and he is well aware that the stuff they gathered is a good basis for further investigation of what went on, and by whom, not a smoking gun on its own.

 

[elbows]

elbows says he did not put it out and doesn't believe it.

I'm not sure I would quite put it like that at all. That makes it sound like he had nothing to do with that list at any point, which is not the case at all. What he is not responsible for, and was trying to point out, was the modern day turning of this list into some kind of cast-iron list of abusers by sloppy commentators.

 

[butchersapron]

Can we all take a step back and do critical interrogation again? Can we stop piling link on link and claim on claim and try and tie some things together, or ask some questions about one directed target?

 

[laptop]

I'm not sure I would quite put it like that at all. That makes it sound like he had nothing to do with that list at any point, which is not the case at all. What he is not responsible for, and was trying to point out, was the modern day turning of this list into some kind of cast-iron list of abusers by sloppy commentators.

Ah, thanks for the edit. I didn't mean to imply he had no connection to it - just that, er, there's no evidence he "leaked" it and, in your words, he does not think it's "some cast iron smoking gun thing".

Just to reinforce the butchersapron point.

 

[Kaka Tim]

It is interesting that none of the names on that list have tried to get it suppressed. Especially after the macalpine farrago .

 

[Libertad]

is it?
Well i don't read it, it just came up in google. Honestly.
The pictures are interesting but I will take down the link as I wouldn't want to increase their traffic and I'm sure they can be found elsewhere.
It's also hard to make much out in the pictures

Your link is still there Shifty. It's behind the first asterisk.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

[QUOTE="scalyboy, post: 13256035, member: 13London.ere's been mention of mass street protests in Belgium after the Dutroux scandal broke. Does anyone know of any proposals for a similar demo/march here (perhaps in London and ending up by/near Parliament), about this current stuff? I'd be up for it (as long as it wasn't organised by the EDL or David Icke etc etc)[/QUOTE]

This really should happen, may be not just london. The risk is that truthy types might predominate but who's going to do the legwork? Anyone know the basis of organisation in Belgium? I think there were rallies against the RC church in Ireland too?

 

[Wilf]

Vaz makes a good point about the Butler-Schloss appointment:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ss-inquiry-child-abuse-allegations-parliament

Essentially, her own brother was attorney general and then lord chancellor in the governments at the heart of this. Hardly makes any difference to the bigger picture, but fuckin' hell, at least try and keep it clean.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Late last year. Apols it's the Express, though they've done some running on this stuff and these are strange times etc.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/43...-paedophiles-says-ex-child-protection-officer

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

 

[Batboy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28203914
I am less interested in the probity of public bodies, or even kids being taken from their families, I am interested in prominent perpetrators, if there are any, being punished.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28203914
So the first and second reviews both focus mainly on institutions, rather than perpetrators. I suppose police investigations are ongoing, but they don't seem to be ongoing very quickly, these allegations are many years old.

Oh boy...
Butler Sloss 80 years old, the bible bashing (oversaw appointment of Archbishop of Canterbury) judge well connected to her chums the political elite, sister of former chancellor Lord Michael Havers (deceased), 80 years old is to chair inquiry (not public of course, but behind closed doors something she is very used to).... perfect appointment to make sure nothing goes wrong, the judge a Dame whose husband a Peer (also a judge) was embroiled in his own 1980s tabloid sex sleaze scandal in finding 'working' Kenyan girls in and outside night clubs in Nairobi for sexual services.

Oh like Leon Brittan, she was greatly admired by Thatcher and more interestingly obviously related to Lord Michael Havers who was involved via Dickens of losing the dossier on child abuse in Westminster... well that's all sorted then..,,


don't you just fucking love it!

 

[elbows]

It is interesting that none of the names on that list have tried to get it suppressed. Especially after the macalpine farrago .

The McAlpine thing, despite broader threats, mostly focussed on the media, and a handful of high-profile tweeters.

They don't actually have an effective way to utterly eradicate such lists from the internet completely, or cease the broader chatter around the subject completely. And some form of actions can become a story in themselves and actually draw attention to stuff.

What has happened so far is that at least one person in the last week or so has warned 'substantial' people/media not to say/write anything that names them and associates them with events surrounding the list. And its very far from clear that any media are going to flout this, even without such threats being in place, at least right now without anything else to collaborate list details.

 

[brogdale]

Oh boy...
Butler Sloss 80 years old, the bible bashing (oversaw appointment of Archbishop of Canterbury) judge well connected to her chums the political elite, sister of former chancellor Lord Michael Havers (deceased), 80 years old is to chair inquiry (not public of course, but behind closed doors something she is very used to).... perfect appointment to make sure nothing goes wrong, the judge a Dame whose husband a Peer (also a judge) was embroiled in his own 1980s tabloid sex sleaze scandal in finding 'working' Kenyan girls in and outside night clubs in Nairobi for sexual services.

Oh like Leon Brittan, she was greatly admired by Thatcher and more interestingly obviously related to Lord Michael Havers who was involved via Dickens of losing the dossier on child abuse in Westminster... well that's all sorted then..,,


don't you just fucking love it!

Yep. I'd imagine she'll be able to produce a report that identifies historic, systemic complicity to conceal child abuse across a number of public bodies and institutions; and we will be invited to learn from the mistakes made by (now) deceased "worthies". All without one single clue that senior tories like her brother and his boss were complicit in concealing paedophiles within the party.
L BS's main task will be to prevent the revelation the Thatcher protected Morrison and allowed him to continue sexual abuse of under-age boys.

 

[quiquaquo]

John Mann MP was on BBC 5Live 5 minutes ago saying there were and almost certainly still are multiple copies of the Dickens missing dossier. Copies made inside Whitehall and read by people sworn to confidentiality under the Official Secrets Act. Copies present in various departments that is.

Fucking stitch up all the way.

 

[DotCommunist]

the way this is being framed already stinks- why include the NHS and the BBC? those should be matters for separate inquiries. If the three inquiries throw to light cross-collusion etc then that should be dealt with in due course.

Lumping them all together is trying to distract and throw sand.

As for appointing someone so establishment they fart the opening bars to god save the queen...well..

 

[elbows]

Lumping them all together is trying to distract and throw sand.

The be fair, thats what the campaign for an inquiry has been calling for, an overarching inquiry.

Personally I would prefer there to be some prosecutions of MPs take place before such an overall inquiry.

 

[Wilf]

The McAlpine thing, despite broader threats, mostly focussed on the media, and a handful of high-profile tweeters.

They don't actually have an effective way to utterly eradicate such lists from the internet completely, or cease the broader chatter around the subject completely. And some form of actions can become a story in themselves and actually draw attention to stuff.

What has happened so far is that at least one person in the last week or so has warned 'substantial' people/media not to say/write anything that names them and associates them with events surrounding the list. And its very far from clear that any media are going to flout this, even without such threats being in place, at least right now without anything else to collaborate list details.

I suppose here are 2 extreme, opposing assumptions about the internet - that it is an uncontrollable venue for freedom where the old controls just don't work Vs the idea that the old structures of commerce and power simply play out in cyberspace. The list seems to sit somewhere between the 2. It can easily be found, there are pieces in the feckin' Daily Mail that broadly give its contents (minus the living names). However, as you say, 'they' are still able to stop the living names crossing the boundary into the mainstream media. I'm sure you are right also about the lack of corroboration being a factor in all this - and the Newsnight/McAlpine fuck up still casts a shadow.

Having said all that, it's not uniquely an internet phenomena. The press have sat on all kinds of stories out of fear, Savile, Smith, Harris...

 

[Wilf]

Danczuk and others already calling for Butler Schloss to resign (because of her brother)
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...abuse-inquiry-says-danczuk-politics-live-blog
She claims she didn't know about the link. Well, I suppose when you are in a family like hers you just get used to being to connected to just about every decision maker and person of note.

Can't say I'm that worried because I don't expect the various inquiries to really dig in anyway, but from Cameron's own perspective it was a fucking silly decision. She might well have been the judge with the most appropriate CV, but when you want to investigate something specifically about the political establishment...
Of course, needless to say, from the point of view of the establishment she's also an excellent appointment.

 

[Wilf]

No idea whether this is true about the 20 minute row (and also ignoring the stuff on her age) but here's a guardian comment that gets to the point:

It's alleged they had a 20 minute shouting match when Havers tried to warn Dickens off naming Sir Peter Hayman in Parliament.
At the moment we have an inquiry where people are not compelled to give evidence, and what evidence is given is not under oath, chaired by the 80(81 next month) year old sister, of an individual thar Dickens accused of "the cover-up of the century."
At best it is the most appalling PR for the start of the inquiry; at worst its an attempt to again brush this under the carpet.

 

[butchersapron]

Appalling short term political management - maybe makes more sense in the long run in that she'll likely report under a labour administration and a few bodies will go under the wheels on their watch and they'll have to deal with the inevitable a few mistakes were made but no conspiracy existed or exists conclusions. That said, i'm not sure the tories in charge of the party strategy are capable of that sort of longer term planning.

 

[Wilf]

'Clerk, where are we up to, which bit of the story is the Independent Panel looking at today?'

'Errrm, the bit where your brother tried to stop Geoffrey Dickens naming names m'lady'.

'My brother y'say? He's was an excellent chap, this should be over by 12, I will make lunch at the Atheneum'.

 

[happie chappie]

What has happened so far is that at least one person in the last week or so has warned 'substantial' people/media not to say/write anything that names them and associates them with events surrounding the list. And its very far from clear that any media are going to flout this, even without such threats being in place, at least right now without anything else to collaborate list details.

I agree - as you point out the media may not at the stage of “naming names”.

But what the press are good at, particularly the tabloids, is dropping hints (for example, “former cabinet minister”, “senior figure in the Conservative party”, “currently sitting in Parliament” and so on) to the point that, while not actually naming any particular individual, several candidates are effectively ruled out by a process of elimination, thus leaving a significant narrowing of the field of likely suspects.

And there is also the possibility of people being named under Parliamentary Privilege - indeed Danczuk said he came close to naming two individuals earlier this week.

At a guess one of most interesting developments will be on late Saturday night/early Sunday when the first editions of the Sunday papers come out as this is when, traditionally, many of the headline-grabbing investigative stories are published.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I learnt on here that "chicken" is slang for young girls, but it's a grotesque turn of phrase that trivialises the nature of the crimes in question.

It's the language used when I was told. Of course it's a grotesque turn of phrase! that's the bloody point!
I apologise if my attempt to report verbatim offends your sensibilities.

 

[ViolentPanda]

ELizabeth Butler-Sloss to chair enquiry. About as establishment as you can get - ex judge, daughter of judge, sister to the lord havers the lord chancellor.

Although, to give her her due, she does have a good record on childrens' issues.