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Here's how to do it: 'Democratic Germany leads free-market England in football's recovery'

Top 5? I

So who are you leaving out?

Im seeing the majority of the PL and many fans outside the PL too. Like I said look at the reaction to many takeovers, or rumours of such.

I cant recall many fans dancing in the street at the thought of lower ticket prices, not when they can dream of the title or the CL.

A lot of that is to do with the completely uncritical (or worse, downright misleading) reporting of takeovers, combined with the fact that most clubs are already some individuals plaything anyway. Aside from some fan groups (Wrexham especially, though they have had the most practice), sites like twohundredpercent, and an embarassingly small number of hacks (David Conn being the only one who springs immediately to mind), almost none of media actually investigate the people making the usual claims of "investment"; which of course usually then leads to the club going tits up sooner or later.

As a result, its quite easy to see why fans might go on to believe the hype and start going on about success.
 
That ticket prices are not the priority for most & that fans like success?
Fans like success they can be part of. It may have escaped your attention, but the demographic of supporters has changed somewhat at the higher end, with many lifelong, working class supporters priced out of the game. Instead they give money to Sky so they can at least watch their team on the TV.

I guess that doesn't bother you much, eh?
 
Fans like success they can be part of. It may have escaped your attention, but the demographic of supporters has changed somewhat at the higher end, with many lifelong, working class supporters priced out of the game. Instead they give money to Sky so they can at least watch their team on the TV.

I guess that doesn't bother you much, eh?

Come on cheap shot there!

I play devils advocate and you respond how?

Calm down a bit & rewind. I responded by saying that on the other side of the coin Abramovic (& I can assure you thats not me so no need to try & play it like it is) would respond by saying that measured by sucess the English system is better to which several of you replied with the "who cares about sucess" line, which we now see is a large part of the football fanbase.

Should I now end with "but I guess you dont care about the fans"?

I dont like the direction football has moved in but Im not going to ignore any side of the debate.

Btw. It should also be added that a lot of German fans hate the limits on their clubs & long for the freedoms our clubs have (or rather the fact that they think it gives us an advantage) so the argument is a lot less rosey & clear cut than some might like to think.
 
Calm down a bit & rewind. I responded by saying that on the other side of the coin Abramovic (& I can assure you thats not me so no need to try & play it like it is) would respond by saying that measured by sucess the English system is better to which several of you replied with the "who cares about sucess" line, which we now see is a large part of the football fanbase.

That point has been responded to. You think lower leaue clubs only care that their team wins the CL someday? Sorry, you think Abramovic would respond by saying lower league clubs only care that their team wins the CL someday?
 
Good post from a Fulham supporter on another thread the other day-

We'll never need more than that. I honestly think fulham have reached their peak. 7th and 8th place finishes in the last 3/4 years plus a European cup final. Can't really see it getting any better than that other than an FA cup final win.

30,000 is more than enough and will realistically only be full 5 time a season. Chelsea, arsenal, man u, spurs, qpr and liverpool

When I started following fulham as a 14 year old (24 years ago) we used to thing 5 or 6k was a good gate! It's amazing how it's all changed but the crowd potential was always there as we were getting 25k up unil the late 70s
 
That point has been responded to. You think lower leaue clubs only care that their team wins the CL someday?

From a lot of the shite I've heard from Lincoln fans over the years I'm afraid the attitude is pretty similar among a lot of lower league fans. Not that they expect to win the CL but that they want someone to come up with 'investment' - ie chucking loads of money at the club in order to move forward. The half a million quid our chairman actually has put in recently doesn't count of course, that's only keeping the club afloat not paying for transfer fees.
 
You have fairly recently been relegated to non-league though, tbf.

True but the only difference is that the usual suspects are even louder. They've been moaning on about investment for years, even when we were doing relatively well. I think the expectation among some fans at all levels is that clubs should be chucking loads of money around tbh.
 
From a lot of the shite I've heard from Lincoln fans over the years I'm afraid the attitude is pretty similar among a lot of lower league fans. Not that they expect to win the CL but that they want someone to come up with 'investment' - ie chucking loads of money at the club in order to move forward. The half a million quid our chairman actually has put in recently doesn't count of course, that's only keeping the club afloat not paying for transfer fees.

Exactly. & thats the case at many other smaller clubs too.

Years ago (cant remember the exact years off the top of my head), after the end of our european exile, English clubs were not doing to well in Europe & after the last club got knocked out (Forest losing 4 - 1 to German opposition ironicaly iirc) there was a big enquiry into why English football was so shit (not winning everything like they had before the European exile).

What this article deliberatly avoids mentioning is that a similar post mortem was carried out in Germany a few years back based on the perception, by many, that German football was not living up to its potential.

One of the reasons given, during that debate, was the extra constraints & rules placed on German clubs, which many felt handicapped German clubs.

Amongst a lot of German clubs this issue is a big deal with many lobbying their politicians to remove these constraints & many others lobbying UEfA for greater constraints on clubs in other countries to "balance the plating field".

Anyone bothering to check the facts knows that the facts largely makes a lie of the OP article.

Now before anyone sulks to much & starts building the usual Urban75 strawmen to attack me over these facts I should point out they are facts & not my opinion & that my reportage of facts & the views of others doesnt actually mean Im endorsing those views.

My football aprenticeship came in the pre-PL era so I remember football before the global era, when prices were lower, clubs more community orientated & men were real men & not over paid prancing prima donnas more interested in football than selling hair products.

I fondly remember a lot from that era, the thousands of locals, together as a community, supporting their local club, rather than a priveleged few flying 250 miles by helicopter to support a team of winners in a city they neither know, or like.

But to claim the German model is the answer is a lie that fails to address the needs & desires of the fans & I was playing devils advocate to point that out.

Tbh if you wanted community owned clubs the Spanish examples would have been a better example, were it not for the fact that fiscally they can be even worse than some of our examples.

I actually like the idea of community clubs but in the very real context of today I do have a deal of scepticism on how they can truly work & deliver what the fans want, which in a lot of cases is success.

I do think the issue is a lot more complicated than many would care to admit (as can be seen in this thread).
 
You think lower leaue clubs only care that their team wins the CL someday? Sorry, you think Abramovic would respond by saying lower league clubs only care that their team wins the CL someday?

As pointed out before & by millions of fans around the footballing universe that is exactly how many feel.

Lets put it another do you really think many fans at lower clubs DONT dream about some exotic investor giving their club billions of pounds & instant success?

Im sorry but youre on to a losing argument if you dont think that is the view of hundreds of thousands of fans at the clubs outside of the top four.

& obviously when you do finally accept the facts then you have to accept that success is an important aspect for supporters which does kind of validate the hypothesized counter argument brought against the rather poor & misleading article in the openning post.
 
As pointed out before & by millions of fans around the footballing universe that is exactly how many feel.

Lets put it another do you really think many fans at lower clubs DONT dream about some exotic investor giving their club billions of pounds & instant success?

Im sorry but youre on to a losing argument if you dont think that is the view of hundreds of thousands of fans at the clubs outside of the top four.

& obviously when you do finally accept the facts then you have to accept that success is an important aspect for supporters which does kind of validate the hypothesized counter argument brought against the rather poor & misleading article in the openning post.

:D

Not my experience, but you've said it's 'facts' so you've got me there!

In my experience some young supporters do 'dream' of massive investment in their club. I've even stood on terracing and heard younger supporters complain about the view! But these views are in no way indicitive of the majority of supporters at the club I support and the other lower division club I used to go and see regulalrly when I lived up north.

But you say they are, so I'll concede and go with your 'facts'. ;)
 
In my experience some young supporters do 'dream' of massive investment in their club. I've even stood on terracing and heard younger supporters complain about the view!

There you go! I was surprised when you tried to write it off as fans of the top 4 only & always suspected deep down you knew it was a fact that there were people out there who thought that way.

Add all the armchair fans, the fair weather fans, glory hunters & all the rest & it becomes odd to think my original post was ever argued against.

I know its an inconvenient fact for some, but fact it is.

As I said above Im actually quite fond of the idea of community clubs & Im not a glory hunter myself, but I was never going to kid myself as Ive never been the type who will bury a truth just because its inconvenient to my personal philosophies (I always feel thats a desperate approach that invariably leads to flawed compromises that usually turn out for the worse).
 
I imagine Abramovic would counter by pointing out that 3 English sides have won the CL since the last German team did.

I guess the argument depends on what you want out of the game.
Well, that, I honestly couldn't give a flying fuck about.
 
my club has well and truly left me now. I was a season ticket holder, regular at away games, as recently as 10 years ago. Can't be arsed now, don't have the money and even if I did, it's such a fucking rip-off I wouldn't go, it's a miserable experience. The sad thing is that I can't think of anything I got more enjoyment out way back when, and now it's just dead to me.

Anyway, I can't imagine this league structure will survive another decade. I mean, £30 to watch Ipswich Town v Charlton? How is that sustainable? Virtually nobody makes any profit in football. And it's going to collapse like a big stack of wet, mouldy cards.
 
There you go! I was surprised when you tried to write it off as fans of the top 4 only & always suspected deep down you knew it was a fact that there were people out there who thought that way.

Add all the armchair fans, the fair weather fans, glory hunters & all the rest & it becomes odd to think my original post was ever argued against.

I know its an inconvenient fact for some, but fact it is.

I don't think I said there are no supporters of clubs outside the top 5, with these views, did I?
 
I mean, £30 to watch Ipswich Town v Charlton? How is that sustainable?

Ipswich was another one, big money take over by that ticket tout/arms dealer & the fans cheered at the new owner and his money & how hed bring glory to the club & then they started to complain he wasnt spending enough.

It hasnt turned out to well for them (for every Man City there are half a dozen Ipswich, Portsmouth & Notts Countys) but its what many of their fans wished for.
 
Ipswich was another one, big money take over by that ticket tout/arms dealer & the fans cheered at the new owner and his money & how hed bring glory to the club & then they started to complain he wasnt spending enough.

It hasnt turned out to well for them (for every Man City there are half a dozen Ipswich, Portsmouth & Notts Countys) but its what many of their fans wished for.
The people who wished for it were fucking mugs, and deserve their shitty football club. Fuck them.
 
I still can't quite believe how so many Cardiff City fans fell for all the stinking bullshit that's been slopped our way.
 
I don't think I said there are no supporters of clubs outside the top 5, with these views, did I?

No, but your statement

I would like to think there are less supporters of the top five that there are of all the other football clubs in all divisions in the country

Certainly implied it.

If that wasnt your argument then I apologize for misunderstanding your post. Mind you if that wasnt your argument Im not sure why you were arguing against what I said, as what I was saying was it wasnt limited to the top 4 or 5...
 
No, but your statement



Certainly implied it.

If that wasnt your argument then I apologize for misunderstanding your post. Mind you if that wasnt your argument Im not sure why you were arguing against what I said, as what I was saying was it wasnt limited to the top 4 or 5...

Apology accepted. :)
 
Youre welcome & Ill try to remember for next time that what you say isnt actually what you mean (or it maybe wont be later) and that way it should avoid similar confusion in the future.

I said what I meant. You read what I said and thought I meant something else.

But don't worry about it.
 
Trust me Im not worried about it, more amused by your impression of a spinning top.

You're clearly quite confused by this, getting yourself into a right old pickle. First you apologise, then you infer I've changed my mind.

Probably best to leave it now.
 
Oh look Pete Burns is back...

You're clearly quite confused by this

Wrong again I see...

, getting yourself into a right old pickle. First you apologise, then you infer I've changed my mind.

Are you really this stupid

Probably best to leave it now.

I think you missed that moment several posts ago lol

Awaits the next mind numbingly stupid comeback from someone with less ability than a three year old to admit when hes made a mug of himself...
 
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