Have you spent time in Russia or Ukraine?

[love detective]

Not been to Russia but spent a lot of time in Ukraine. Mainly in the West (Lviv, Ivano Frankivsk, Chernivtsi, Kamyanets Podilsky) but also been to Odessa, Crimea, Dnipro and Kiev

Been back and forward over the now infamous border crossing with Poland at Przemysl a fair few times

Even back in the early 2000’s the developing marriage of convenience between a westwards looking liberal elite and a predominantly unreconstructed, no nonsense, increasingly militarised and unrepentant far right was clear. Then from 2014 that ‘uneasy’ coalition was cheered on by pro-EU liberals in the UK and elsewhere in Europe, ironically giving unconditional backing to actual fascists (wittingly or unwittingly) while calling every little thing around them that they didn’t like fascist. And during this time, the darling of the west Tymoshenko, beloved by UK/EU pro-EU liberals, was entering into electoral pacts with the then dominant far right party Svoboda.

It never felt like a unified country to me, and I guess it never really has been, and now it never will be. Two parts (or more correctly 3 if you include Crimea) each with a very different development, history and culture artificially jammed together, divided by an almost common language. Always remember hearing groups of Ukrainian nationalists singing pro-Ukranian songs in Russian.

Still, an absolute tragedy and an utter mess, and unfortunately it’s been in the post for some time now.

 

[dessiato]

We've just had contact from a friend who is Belarusian and has family in Ukraine. She was there, was able to escape at the start. Unfortunately, five members of her family have been killed in a bombing raid.

 

[contadino]

I had a stopover in Moscow many years ago, which I'm not sure whether it counts. Maybe 18 hours, not really long enough to form an opinion.

In approx 2000, I visited Kiev several times. Certainly the people I met were really nice - gregarious in general. I had a great time.

 

[dessiato]

We've just had contact from a friend who is Belarusian and has family in Ukraine. She was there, was able to escape at the start. Unfortunately, five members of her family have been killed in a bombing raid.

Update. One 18 months, one younger, a niece of our friend, the niece's daughter, and a 15 year old.

We'd been invited to visit, but covid stopped it happening.

 

[TomUS]

Been to Russia twice, first time under Yeltsin, second time under Putin. Things appeared much better for the average Russian under Putin. I could see why most of the public liked the bastard. The economy was much improved. Under Yeltsin, people were literally going hungry.

 

[RD2003]

I surprised myself by holding a brief conversation in Russian with a Bugarian delivery driver today. I used to be reasonably good, but haven't even tried for about 16 years.

 

[RD2003]

Almost unmentioned in the media passed the 31st anniversary of the attempted coup in the former SU the other day. I was in Moscow at the time. Woke up to find Swan Lake instead of the early news magazine programme on the telly. It was all rather exciting for a foreigner still in his 20s, and I felt in no danger at all, especially as it became clear, as events unfolded, that it was to be an half-hearted affair on the part of the coup plotters. How did a no-mark cunt like me end up witnessing an historic event like this? It all had a slightly unreal quality about it, and the vast majority seemed relatively unmoved by events. Not so by the young Russians I had come to know, however, who were, in the main, all for the changes Perestroika and Glasnost had brought about, even if they didn't enjoy the hardships involved, and were astutely sceptical about those driving things along.

At the time I was (sceptically, knowing that what they'd get would be far from what they thought they wanted) on their side, but now I think it might have been better if the coup had succeeded. It would have only bought time for the old guard, and the coup organisers' attitude to the changes were actually far from clear. The emphasis was (wisely?) on halting the growing chaos, which was very real. The changes underway were unstoppable anyway, but it's possible that a more controlled process might have avoided the worst excesses of the mafia capitalism that was already being ushered in, along with the rise of the oligarchs, the wholesale theft of the economy, and the crash in living standards that eventually culminated in the Putin regime. If it had been successful, I doubt we'd be witnessing the slaughter in Ukraine today. I remember watching Gennady Yanayev's hands shaking when he read out the coup plotters' declaration on TV, and being confident that his heart wasn't really in it. A while later, back home, I was reading the Russian press, and noticed an interview with some notable (I forget who), claiming that next time the reaction will be led by men whose hands do not shake... For some time, Russia has been led by those whose hands do not shake when they are faced with whatever they think needs doing. All of this could have been avoided, and August '91 was pivotal.

 

[furluxor]

I visited Russia twice. Once was just a quick nip across the border for cheap vodka and caviar (for the adults). When we tried to get a Mars bar at a gas station we were shocked to find out they only had tinned fish.
The second time was a full-on tourist trip to Moscow, a ballet at the Bolshoi Theatre, etc. This time I was a teenager. My recollection is that the city looked like something once magnificent that was now in ruins. My mother says I cried and said: 'they'll never let us leave'. I don't remember this but there were a lot of people with big guns around.

 

[RD2003]

I visited Russia twice. Once was just a quick nip across the border for cheap vodka and caviar (for the adults). When we tried to get a Mars bar at a gas station we were shocked to find out they only had tinned fish.
The second time was a full-on tourist trip to Moscow, a ballet at the Bolshoi Theatre, etc. This time I was a teenager. My recollection is that the city looked like something once magnificent that was now in ruins. My mother says I cried and said: 'they'll never let us leave'. I don't remember this but there were a lot of people with big guns around.

What period was this? Moscow wasn't even in ruins after Yeltsin shelled parts of it in '93, let alone before.

Who had the 'big guns?' Because the only guns you'd normally see as a tourist were the pistols worn discreetly by cops, just as cops wear them in other countries where they bear arms.

 

[seventh bullet]

The militia I came across carried Kalashnikov rifles with the butts removed when I first went to Moscow in 2003.

 

[RD2003]

The militia I came across carried Kalashnikov rifles with the butts removed when I first went to Moscow in 2003.

That's why I asked about the period the poster is referring to. I don't remember seeing guns at all, except for the pistols the police carried, during the late '80s and very early '90s.

I did once read that it was estimated that there were over 100,000 armed men in Moscow alone in the Yeltsin years, belonging to the private armies of gangsters and oligarchs. Whether tourists would have been aware of this is another matter. But, as you'll know, there were regular street/ restaurant shootings and car bombings before Putin. I remember a later visit, in 1997, and arriving in Petersburg on the morning that the mayor or city governer (can't remember if that was the term or who exactly it was) had just been assassinated. Bullet fired from an attic through the roof of his car on Nevsky prospect.

 

[krink]

Me and a work mate were planning to go see Chernobyl as the depressing ghost town photos have always fascinated me. I used the lockdown to be really careful and save up for it and everything. Bloody wars ruining my cheap holiday in other people's misery.

 

[WouldBe]

Not been to either. Furthest east I've been is Austria.

 

[furluxor]

What period was this? Moscow wasn't even in ruins after Yeltsin shelled parts of it in '93, let alone before.

Who had the 'big guns?' Because the only guns you'd normally see as a tourist were the pistols worn discreetly by cops, just as cops wear them in other countries where they bear arms.

I can't say exactly when but I was born just before the collapse of the USSR and I was a teenager during the second trip. The city wasn't in ruins but it looked dilapitated, something grand that's now in ruins was my personal impression of it. I do remember guns because I was scared of them, although this may have been more at the border than in the city, I can't tell you now - I was rather young then and my memories are hazy at best.

 

[RD2003]

I can't say exactly when but I was born just before the collapse of the USSR and I was a teenager during the second trip. The city wasn't in ruins but it looked dilapitated, something grand that's now in ruins was my personal impression of it. I do remember guns because I was scared of them, although this may have been more at the border than in the city, I can't tell you now - I was rather young then and my memories are hazy at best.

In later visits, from about 1997, I was surprised at how dilapidated the area where I mostly used to stay was looking compared to 6-7 years earlier. It was one of Moscow's less attractive districts, with block after block of 'Khruschovka' flats, but in the late '80s and early '90s it was tidy and safe. In just six years it had degenerated into something that made me think of the footage I'd seen of poorer parts of New York in the 1970s. Paint was peeling from the exterior of the blocks, rubbish was overflowing from the communal bins, the bars and grocery stores mostly looked like places about to close down, and passers by looked angry and/or depressed. I used to walk about at all times of day and night there, but didn't make me want to hang about after dark.

I'd decribe much of central Moscow as having had a faded grandeur in late Soviet times, with Tsarist Moscow dwarfed by the often ugly grandiosity of Soviet building styles. The difference between residential areas could be striking with some that looked quite affluent, and I did visit some flats that would be the envy of many in this country. By 1997 the centre had changed considerably, with vast building projects underway (many as ugly as the Soviet style), and a different style of housing being built, especially on the outskirts. It was much more 'glitzy', grotesquely so, you could say. I do remember, now I think about it, that paramilitary police were much more in evidence, many carrying machine guns and guarding banks (which were like fortresses), international hotels and public buildings-the inevitable reponse to the ongoing mafia wars. Perhaps this is what you're thinking of?

 

[furluxor]

In later visits, from about 1997, I was surprised at how dilapidated the area where I mostly used to stay was looking compared to 6-7 years earlier. It was one of Moscow's less attractive districts, with block after block of 'Khruschovka' flats, but in the late '80s and early '90s it was tidy and safe. In just six years it had degenerated into something that made me think of the footage I'd seen of poorer parts of New York in the 1970s. Paint was peeling from the exterior of the blocks, rubbish was overflowing from the communal bins, the bars and grocery stores mostly looked like places about to close down, and passers by looked angry and/or depressed. I used to walk about at all times of day and night there, but didn't make me want to hang about after dark.

I'd decribe much of central Moscow as having had a faded grandeur in late Soviet times, with Tsarist Moscow dwarfed by the often ugly grandiosity of Soviet building styles. The difference between residential areas could be striking with some that looked quite affluent, and I did visit some flats that would be the envy of many in this country. By 1997 the centre had changed considerably, with vast building projects underway (many as ugly as the Soviet style), and a different style of housing being built, especially on the outskirts. It was much more 'glitzy', grotesquely so, you could say. I do remember, now I think about it, that paramilitary police were much more in evidence, many carrying machine guns and guarding banks (which were like fortresses), international hotels and public buildings-the inevitable reponse to the ongoing mafia wars. Perhaps this is what you're thinking of?

Could be! It's so far in the past now so I can't recall for sure but it seems likely. Your description gives a context to my few and disparate memories from that time. Despite having grown up amongst those same 'Khruschyovka' blocks my actual knowledge of what was going on is pitiful.