Griffin and BNP strategy

[butchersapron]

One fault in your argument durruti02, Berlusconi is no 'neo-fascist'. 'Idiot' maybe?

Irelevant 'point' - he introduces race based legislation etc and has popular support. Griffin argues the same sort of race based-populism and picks up support. Fro example -this sink their boatrs stuff - he deliberately said that so that shocked liberals like you would pick up on it and spread it around. That shit doesn't do them any harm amongst potential supporters - those already opposed pick up on it though. You don;t know what's going on. Stick to just linking to luaf updates. None today btw?

 

[audiotech]

Irelevant 'point' - he introduces race based legislation etc and has popular support. Griffin argues the same sort of race based-populism and picks up support. Fro example -this sink their boatrs stuff - he deliberately said that so that shocked liberals like you would pick up on it and spread it around. That shit doesn't do them any harm amongst potential supporters - those already opposed pick up on it though. You don;t know what's going on. Stick to just linking to luaf updates. None today btw?

I know Berlusconi is not a neo-fascist and it is relevant to point this out when someone describes him as such.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Irelevant 'point' - he introduces race based legislation etc and has popular support. Griffin argues the same sort of race based-populism and picks up support. Fro example -this sink their boatrs stuff - he deliberately said that so that shocked liberals like you would pick up on it and spread it around. That shit doesn't do them any harm amongst potential supporters - those already opposed pick up on it though. You don;t know what's going on. Stick to just linking to luaf updates. None today btw?

I think THAT is the UAF tactic.

 

[butchersapron]

What is? Mobilise those that you don't need to mobilise? Get in amongst those who are on your side already? Yeah, i think you're right. It is.

 

[butchersapron]

I know Berlusconi is not a neo-fascist and it is relevant to point this out when someone describes him as such.

No it's not, not when the point is elsewhere. It's obfuscatory guff.

 

[Stoat Boy]

I was a bit puzzled about the 'sinking boats' interview in that I could not quite work out which audience he was aiming it at and I did wonder if this was some sort of attempt at garnering support amongst some of the other far-right parties in Europe now that the Lega Nord have thrown their hats in, so to speak, with UKIP.

Which Italian Party does Fiore represent ?

 

[butchersapron]

Why have you mentioned Fiore? The comment was designed for domestic consumption.

 

[frogwoman]

One fault in your argument durruti02, Berlusconi is no 'neo-fascist'. 'Idiot' maybe?

I wouldnt be too sure

 

[frogwoman]

I know Berlusconi is not a neo-fascist

i know others who think diffreently. why is it so hard to believe, why is "fasicsm" only deemend to apply to fascism in its classic garb? the shit he and his supporters are doing is what the bnp have been trying to GET AWAY from

 

[butchersapron]

He was probably arguing the same a few months back. Not the important point though.

 

[audiotech]

No it's not, not when the point is elsewhere. It's obfuscatory guff.

Just because you think it's a superlative to the discussion doesn't mean others on here will.

 

[frogwoman]

i know

Why is berlusconi who has actually introduced/proposed racially based laws deemed not to be a fash and yet the bnp who have not come close to suggesting some of the shit berluscioni and his cronies have actually DONE are suddenly worse than hitler or something?

im not saying the bnp aren't fash btw, neo or otherwise - but why this constant emphasis on them being worse than the rest of the European far right when those (like berlusconi) are the actual dangerous one,s the ones in positions of power and so on???

fucks sake. someone needs a reality check

 

[audiotech]

i know others who think diffreently. why is it so hard to believe, why is "fasicsm" only deemend to apply to fascism in its classic garb? the shit he and his supporters are doing is what the bnp have been trying to GET AWAY from

Elaborate?

Edit: I see you have, specifically then?

 

[frogwoman]

ID cards for gypsies (and later for everyone)

Segregated trains/buses - according to one source i read there is actually a bus line in the south of italy that does this

Actual walled "ghettos" for immigrants and deportation of asylum seekers before their claims are processed ie to Libya recently


That fucking creepy "National Guard" uniform/symbol and the fact that these patrols of what are basically armed thugs have now been given official status and have some police powers - including powers to be police informers etc thus making a whole network of police informers ready to follow people, and also to intimidate/make some "arrests"

The fact that Berlusconi owns most, ig not all, of the media and there is somewhat of a "cult of personality" around him

The fact that known fascistrs are in positions of power (ie Rome mayor etc) and openly giving fascist salutes etc

There is probably a lot more and more important examples going on but those are off the top of my head, the BNP have been very careful to get away from this type of stuff and play the "we are not fascists" card

 

[audiotech]

ID cards for gypsies (and later for everyone)

Segregated trains/buses - according to one source i read there is actually a bus line in the south of italy that does this

Actual walled "ghettos" for immigrants and deportation of asylum seekers before their claims are processed ie to Libya recently


That fucking creepy "National Guard" uniform/symbol and the fact that these patrols of what are basically armed thugs have now been given official status and have some police powers - including powers to be police informers etc thus making a whole network of police informers ready to follow people, and also to intimidate/make some "arrests"

The fact that Berlusconi owns most, ig not all, of the media and there is somewhat of a "cult of personality" around him

The fact that known fascistrs are in positions of power (ie Rome mayor etc) and openly giving fascist salutes etc

There is probably a lot more and more important examples going on but those are off the top of my head, the BNP have been very careful to get away from this type of stuff and play the "we are not fascists" card

I would agree that there are growing similarities between the far-right in Italy and Berlusconi's People of Freedom party, as he alway's hunting for the fascist vote.

 

[Pickman's model]

I would agree that there are growing similarities between the far-right in Italy and Berlusconi's People of Freedom party, as he alway's hunting for the fascist vote.

from his repeated election, he doesn't seem to have to hunt too hard

 

[durruti02]

so my point stands .. while liberals and elements of the left will throw their hands up in horror .. actually this calculated comment is said in the full understanding that many will agree with it .. how many of us are involved, speaking to , working with the people who this comment was aimed at ..

 

[Silver_Fox]

http://www.javno.com/en-world/separate-bus-for-migrants-prompts-outrage-in-italy_248378

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/08/italy-segregated-public-transport-proposal

I don't think what Griffin said will come as much of a surprise. They are a party that openly say they want to chuck all non-whites out of the country.

Just keep calling them racist and fascist isn't going to change anything. A pro-working class alternative is needed. Sadly every attempt so far seems set in sectarianism and a bubble world.

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.javno.com/en-world/separate-bus-for-migrants-prompts-outrage-in-italy_248378

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/08/italy-segregated-public-transport-proposal

I don't think what Griffin said will come as much of a surprise. They are a party that openly say they want to chuck all non-whites out of the country.

Just keep calling them racist and fascist isn't going to change anything. A pro-working class alternative is needed. Sadly every attempt so far seems set in sectarianism and a bubble world.

yep.bears shit in woods shocker

 

[Stoat Boy]

Why have you mentioned Fiore? The comment was designed for domestic consumption.

Just wondered. I dont see why it would be for domestic consumption. The whole issue of people trying to get into Europe via the boats in question is something that primarily affects Italy and Spain.

We aint got people turning up on English beaches.

I was just puzzled as to why he made such obviously crass comments. They seem to be at odds with the whole attempt to make the BNP 'civilised' because they are so blatent.

I mentioned Fiore because I know him and Griffin have been close in the past and wondered what sort of influence Fiore might have on the Lega Nord, whom Griffin, as I understand things, has been trying to cosy up with.

 

[frogwoman]

I would agree that there are growing similarities between the far-right in Italy and Berlusconi's People of Freedom party, as he alway's hunting for the fascist vote.

Why the problem with labelling him fash then?

and at the same time making nick griffin (who has not suggested most of the things B. has ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED) out to be Hitler mark II?

this hysterical "anti-fascism" has been tried and failed

 

[audiotech]

Why the problem with labelling him fash then?

and at the same time making nick griffin (who has not suggested most of the things B. has ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED) out to be Hitler mark II?

this hysterical "anti-fascism" has been tried and failed

The BNP and the NF before it, don't like the nazi, or fascist tag. It's one tactic that has had a beneficial effect before, but this time appears not to be as successful, partly because of the success of the BNP spending time and resources trying to deny it.

Nevertheless, the time and resources spent denying it by the BNP still has an effect on their other activities, so important not to ditch this aspect of anti-fascism entirely and it does still effect there more softer supporters.

Burlusconi is an opportunist and it's clear will form coalitions with the most nasty of the right to stay in power, but he's no fascist?

 

[frogwoman]

"fascist" is such a misunderstood word that any small political party without a measure of consolidated support would want to discredit that label

even stuff like the greensand "environmental fascism"

there's pletny of stuff about them "not being racist" on the bnp website followed by actual racism but i don't see the same effort being put into denying accusations of fascism that there was in the past

because there is a decreasing (albeit still signioficant) need for them to do so any more

many of berlusconi's supporters and people in the governing party do not even deny the fact they are fascists at all and even state so explicityl

 

[Rod Sleeves]

many of berlusconi's supporters and people in the governing party do not even deny the fact they are fascists at all and even state so explicityl

Do they?

Not that I disagree with you entirely, I think the Italian government is as close to fascist as you can get in the EU at the moment, and that it's existence serves to normalise fascism through out Europe. It's far worse than what the BNP can possibly hope to accomplish any time soon.

 

[tbaldwin]

The BNP and the NF before it, don't like the nazi, or fascist tag. It's one tactic that has had a beneficial effect before, but this time appears not to be as successful, partly because of the success of the BNP spending time and resources trying to deny it.

Nevertheless, the time and resources spent denying it by the BNP still has an effect on their other activities, so important not to ditch this aspect of anti-fascism entirely and it does still effect there more softer supporters.

Burlusconi is an opportunist and it's clear will form coalitions with the most nasty of the right to stay in power, but he's no fascist?

I agree with you mostly about this MC.....I think that its important to tell people the things the BNP leadership would rather they did not know.
One of the main things is their nazi links.
I think its really important because the BNPs views on immigration and crime are held by millions of people in this country who are fed up with Liberal policies that clearly dont work.
The only thing stopping the BNP is there racist and nazi views being exposed.

 

[frogwoman]

Do they?

Not that I disagree with you entirely, I think the Italian government is as close to fascist as you can get in the EU at the moment, and that it's existence serves to normalise fascism through out Europe. It's far worse than what the BNP can possibly hope to accomplish any time soon.

Yeah - I'll try and dig up a few links in a bit x

 

[Stoat Boy]

Do they?

Not that I disagree with you entirely, I think the Italian government is as close to fascist as you can get in the EU at the moment, and that it's existence serves to normalise fascism through out Europe. It's far worse than what the BNP can possibly hope to accomplish any time soon.

Which is why I dont understand the 'sink the boats' comment being for the domestic market here in the UK. Makes no sense because the only boats we have bringing in illegal immigrants are the Cross Channel Ferrys and even the most bug-eyed BNP loon would baulk at sinking one of those because it might have a few daft Albanians clinging to the underside of a Lorry.

But if Griffin is trying to cosy up with the Italian right, well its the sort of thing they want to hear.

Did his comments make any other nations news reports ?

 

[butchersapron]

You're mising the point - it's not a stategy document, it's something designed to be reported as a shocking statement - but one that some people agree with, it's there to reinforce and extend the BNP's reach to these people. The right and wrong of it is neither here not there.

 

[audiotech]

You're mising the point - it's not a stategy document, it's something designed to be reported as a shocking statement - but one that some people agree with, it's there to reinforce and extend the BNP's reach to these people. The right and wrong of it is neither here not there.

Won't it put more people off, incuding the softer elements already in the orbit of BNP land?

 

[frogwoman]

Do they?

Not that I disagree with you entirely, I think the Italian government is as close to fascist as you can get in the EU at the moment, and that it's existence serves to normalise fascism through out Europe. It's far worse than what the BNP can possibly hope to accomplish any time soon.

Yeah - I'll try and dig up a few links in a bit x


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0912-05.htm

"funny" at the time but in the lights of recent events ends up looking downright sinister

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/30/italy

Berlusconi suggested "we are the new phalange"(!!!)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1915484/Romes-new-mayor-promises-purge-of-migrants.html

http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=172&a=8215

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2008/08/04/is_italy_going_fascist

http://www.reuters.com/article/inDepthNews/idUSL0485372220080408


And so on ...