Griffin and BNP strategy

[audiotech]

Spot on.

If the BNP are seen by some as an alternative to something shit then we need another alternative.

It's about the battle for ideas and not who looks like a twat in a suit, i,e substance over style shurely?

 

[The Black Hand]

Our lord and master with a short piece on local election happenings and events;

http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/iwca-lose-two-seats-in-oxford-to-labour/

 

[The Black Hand]

JIms analysis has been said for some time, it is obvious Liberal left anti fascism, and I include SWP in this, is not working. Combine this with ultra left failure (IWCA loss 2 seats) leaves a big crisis in anti fascism with the existing accepted players shot.

So that leaves the way open for MAYDAY magazine to lead the way issue 2 out soon with the best analysis of what is going on. It theorises combined and uneven development perspectives which are necessary for serious radical thought today and develops new ways of seeing beyond what passes as current anti fascism (usual suspect positions).

Brilliant!

I will be disappointed, though, if there are no articles dealing with foxes, parking meters, smuggled fags and the experience of the Anarchist International Brigade's armed solidarity with Hezbollah.

I cannot wait till issue 2 is out - signed copy anyone

 

[TremulousTetra]

very good post .. but you having a laugh in the last para right?? the swp actually get involved with local politics???

which is exactly who I described in my post above. sw directly involved in local politics on a much higher level than any of the fascist candidates, and yet nowhere near the same level of vote.

that's why I say this discrepancy is down to objective factors, rather than subjective factors.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Tried and failed.

Personally, I'm not interested in failures, noble or otherwise. I'm interested in actually stopping the rise of fascism, not making a balls of the job and then saying 'Oh well, at least we gave it a go.'

couldn't agree with you more, but that wasn't the point of my contribution was it? I merely outlined that lecturing at the SW about the twin track approach is lecturing to the converted. you and butch etc were just resurrecting straw man arguments, which are nearly 30-year-old. yawn. and even less worthwhile endeavour than trying and failing.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Is it relevant to attempt label the BNP fascist anyway? It clearly achieves absolutely nothing one way or the other.

Focus on repulsive elements of their policy (and their proposed stuff contains enough of it) rather than talking about your suspicions, because that only plays into their own game and gives them more propaganda about "being told what to think yada yada yada".

Whilst doing that do positive things to demonstrate the good aspects of life outside of a fascist society and in the process attempt to reduce the propaganda tools being gifted to them by incompetent government.

These arguments you are having are circular, irrelevant, and concerned with detail that no one really cares about. It's a waste of time and energy.

This may sound insane, but how about targeting the issues they're using to grow a power base in the very localities that they're successful? For example, if there is a housing or crime problem in the area where they're elected and they're using this for propaganda purposes (ie blaming it on immigration), how about the left try to steal their thunder by actually putting together something which combats these very problems (and/or demonstrate the problems aren't real), and taking away their raison d'etre in the view of most of their voters?

same question I put to butch above, do you actually speak to people who vote BNP? do you actually speak to people who vote for the BNP, i do. 80% of them fervently denied the BNP are a fascist, and had said to me if they believe they were they would not vote for them. many have said they know the BNP is fascist, but only vote for them because there is no chance of them getting power and it is a good way to spank the mainstream politicians.


why do the bnp lie about not being fascist, if it doesn't hurt them politically?

lastly, why has British fascism took so long to start to catch up with its European counterparts?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Not to play down the problems that exist around the world for a moment, but if the SWP CC devoted even half the energy to domestic problems and strategies that they devote to foreign ones then they might have a lot more support.

Somehow, I don't think twinning Nablus with Preston or wherever it was counts for too much on the doorstep when people have problems that need solving in their own community.

he says pointing to one of the more successful Respect groups.

 

[TremulousTetra]

This sums up my view on it as well.

Clearly some of you have much more direct experience of it than I do, but the leading problem with much anti-fascism is it starts to look a lot like what it's supposed to be opposing, or at least demonstrate the qualities that to the majority of people are repulsive.

My big concern would be using violence against fascists, because it moves the moral high ground in their favour. There is a very fine line between self defence and offense, and crossing it will tarnish the public perception, leading to marginalisation of the cause.

Certainly invest in a self defence capability, but if you're sole function is to be anti-fascist and defend yourself from physical attacks that may or may not ever come you've lost at the first move.

The other thing to be wary of is that bringing them up all the time actually raises their profile. I might go as far as to say that actually going to protest directly against them is counter productive, partly because of the greater attention, and also that if the crowd happens to be formed of a certain sort then it reinforces their agenda.

Ironically the anti-fascist movement needs to define itself in terms of something beyond it's opponent to stand a chance of long term success.

you can never achieve long-term success with fascism whilst you have capitalism. the role of the antifascist movement is not to overthrow capitalism. you're completely misunderstanding the nature of the beast, and the opposition strategy.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Spot on.

If the BNP are seen by some as an alternative to something shit then we need another alternative.

I am glad you have come to the same line of argument as SW.

 

[kidtripod]

you're completely misunderstanding the nature of the beast, and the opposition strategy.

I think that's actually true.

I came to the conclusion in discussing this yesterday that I really wasn't clear if the SWP etc. are actually anti-fascist or merely using it to further their own agenda. The first idea is very realistic, but the latter you would have to conclude is doomed to failure. Again.

So, are people serious about stopping any potential rise of fascism, or is this just a PR effort for our own pre-existing causes?

My hunch here is that the SWP will doom any effort merely by association. You need a much broader church of opinion united around the idea of anti-fascism, but this means being prepared to put down minor arguments and focus on the larger picture.

I understand the protest vote point, and agree, which is why I think the focus of any action needs to be restoring peoples faith in society. People voting BNP feel they're losing their place in society, and we need to demonstrate to everyone, including BNP voters, that they have a place in a fully inclusive society. (Too many uses of society in one paragraph here!)

The other aspect of this which puzzled me was even if you do assemble a broad anti-fascist coalition (under a different label, else we're symbiotically feeding them) what do you get them to do? Having mass rallies explicitly against the BNP just makes voting for them more appealing as a protest against being preached at by the political classes. It needs something far more profound and I really haven't got a clue!

 

[The Black Hand]

Blimey, I'm winning on this thread, 305 posts circa 20% of total.

 

[The Black Hand]

Babyshambles

Doherty said “there will be no passage of evil through these isles without a proper, good struggle.”

“This island has always been a melting pot and personally I am 100% mongrel in the great dog stew of history - Bona fide scouse, London Irish, jew Geordie BiloRussian.”

Doherty, who missed last week’s Love Music Hate Racism carnival because of his imprisonment, said that “closed borders are like closed minds”.

“Racism is upon us and let us not forget it is still within living memory that six million people died in gas chambers because of a hateful ideology,” he added.

This for those who do not know, such as those on the MATB website, what Doherty said is a fine historical British tradition; Byron, William Morris, William Blake, E.P. Thompson etc would all have identified with this call of and for defiance and rebellion against the BNP. Doherty clearly identifies himself with the great romantic poets and their rich and powerful descriptions of life.

Incidentally, Marxism and anarchism has always had utopian parts to them. It is only ultra left fools who deny that.

 

[JTG]

Are you Cheesypoof in disguise?

 

[butchersapron]

Attica you're on U75. Please talk about what's being posted here not on matb:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=5912662

 

[TremulousTetra]

I think that's actually true.

I came to the conclusion in discussing this yesterday that I really wasn't clear if the SWP etc. are actually anti-fascist or merely using it to further their own agenda. The first idea is very realistic, but the latter you would have to conclude is doomed to failure. Again.

So, are people serious about stopping any potential rise of fascism, or is this just a PR effort for our own pre-existing causes?

SWs opinion on the nature of the beast, fascism, is that you cannot get rid of it until you get rid of capitalism.[ can discuss this if you want, or point you to literature and MP3s on the topic.) However, the BNP [fascism] is distinct from the Tories, a distinctly worse option. SW learnt from the mistakes of the Communist Party in Germany who didn't draw a distinction between what they labelled "social fascists" (the Labour Party) and the Nazis. So SW is indeed absolutely antifascist, because we want absolutely to stop a creation of a worse state of affairs than we already live in. And if you really want to make a serious accusation of self interest, the one you could undoubtably make is that SW would probably be amongst the first people to be victimised in any kind of fascist worse state of affairs.

You need a much broader church of opinion united around the idea of anti-fascism, but this means being prepared to put down minor arguments and focus on the larger picture.

that is basically the Word for Word argument by SW about forming a antifascist united front. Just to highlight the point, SW already had a antifascist organisation the ANL, several other organisations set up the UAF, and SW set aside its minor arguments and joined with the broader church opinion organisation and focus on the larger picture.

I understand the protest vote point, and agree, which is why I think the focus of any action needs to be restoring peoples faith in society. People voting BNP feel they're losing their place in society, and we need to demonstrate to everyone, including BNP voters, that they have a place in a fully inclusive society. (Too many uses of society in one paragraph here!)

whilst I absolutely agree with you that in the long term that is what is necessary, in the anti-fascist United fronts broad church of opinion is so broad, there is no way you could get agreement about how to achieve those aims. Far better to concentrate on what we all agree on, we are opposed to fascism. For me anti-fascism is about stopping the current situation getting worse, it is not about changing the fundamental exploitative nature of capitalist society.

[ if you have a way of changing the exploitative nature of capitalist society which brings about such alienation as we are discussing, without overthrowing capitalism, I am quite prepared to listen to it.)

The other aspect of this which puzzled me was even if you do assemble a broad anti-fascist coalition (under a different label, else we're symbiotically feeding them) what do you get them to do? Having mass rallies explicitly against the BNP just makes voting for them more appealing as a protest against being preached at by the political classes. It needs something far more profound and I really haven't got a clue!

Hmmmmmmm, I have to admit that at the present I cannot see the antifascist movement being successful. As a starting point, and it is only the starting point, building a mass movement is essential to the way we have dealt with fascism in the past. In my reading of history in the 1970s this mass movement was built from the bottom up. The rallies were a product of the mass movement. At present the rallies seen to be a way of kickstarting the mass movement. They are a way by which a small number of activists can engage with a large audience. And there is nothing essential wrong with that, IF, and it is a big if, if these actions bring about a mass rank-and-file movement. In my opinion there is absolutely no point in a tiny minority attempting to defeat fascism for us, defeating fascism has to be a community action.

[ and in building such mass community action, you can in embryo start to build the kind of movement which can remove the fundamental causes of fascism, in my opinion.)

 

[durruti02]

SWs opinion on the nature of the beast, fascism, is that you cannot get rid of it until you get rid of capitalism.[ can discuss this if you want, or point you to literature and MP3s on the topic.) However, the BNP [fascism] is distinct from the Tories, a distinctly worse option. SW learnt from the mistakes of the Communist Party in Germany who didn't draw a distinction between what they labelled "social fascists" (the Labour Party) and the Nazis. So SW is indeed absolutely antifascist, because we want absolutely to stop a creation of a worse state of affairs than we already live in. And if you really want to make a serious accusation of self interest, the one you could undoubtably make is that SW would probably be amongst the first people to be victimised in any kind of fascist worse state of affairs. that is basically the Word for Word argument by SW about forming a antifascist united front. Just to highlight the point, SW already had a antifascist organisation the ANL, several other organisations set up the UAF, and SW set aside its minor arguments and joined with the broader church opinion organisation and focus on the larger picture. whilst I absolutely agree with you that in the long term that is what is necessary, in the anti-fascist United fronts broad church of opinion is so broad, there is no way you could get agreement about how to achieve those aims. Far better to concentrate on what we all agree on, we are opposed to fascism. For me anti-fascism is about stopping the current situation getting worse, it is not about changing the fundamental exploitative nature of capitalist society.

[ if you have a way of changing the exploitative nature of capitalist society which brings about such alienation as we are discussing, without overthrowing capitalism, I am quite prepared to listen to it.)Hmmmmmmm, I have to admit that at the present I cannot see the antifascist movement being successful. As a starting point, and it is only the starting point, building a mass movement is essential to the way we have dealt with fascism in the past. In my reading of history in the 1970s this mass movement was built from the bottom up. The rallies were a product of the mass movement. At present the rallies seen to be a way of kickstarting the mass movement. They are a way by which a small number of activists can engage with a large audience. And there is nothing essential wrong with that, IF, and it is a big if, if these actions bring about a mass rank-and-file movement. In my opinion there is absolutely no point in a tiny minority attempting to defeat fascism for us, defeating fascism has to be a community action.

[ and in building such mass community action, you can in embryo start to build the kind of movement which can remove the fundamental causes of fascism, in my opinion.)

"For me anti-fascism is about stopping the current situation getting worse, it is not about changing the fundamental exploitative nature of capitalist society."

i think this is fundamentally wrong .. fascism is a SYMPTOM of wider forces .. to concentrate on the bnp in the present moment is INSANE absolutely INSANE .. it is the forces that create the bnp that we must attack if we are to hope to undercut them and create a movement that will overtake them .. ONLY then can we in any way hope to roll back their advance

you are correct though in this .. fascism can not be destroyed before capital is destroyed .. but look at that again .. then we must concentrate on capital .. to do anything else is to let the allow the greater forces to carry on with their neo liberal project and fall for a massive red herring

 

[geoff64]

There's quite a lot of misunderstanding here.

Those of us who criticise the Left's response to the BNP (ie Lollipops and whistles and chants of Nazi's out outside the GLA) do not deny - necessarily - that the BNP are at core fascist, only that the strategy to defeat them cannot come ONLY from calling them Nazi's. As well as exposing the anti-workibg class logic of BNP policy - and yes, exposing their past espousal of openly racist and fascist positions - we should also offer a positive challenge to them by attempting to create a space for working-class resistance where people see some point in fighting for themselves instead of believing the "we can sort it out for you" crap spouted by the BNP (and by other parties, for that matter). People who vote BNP predominantly do so because they feel alienated from the political process, unrepresented and patronised by the middle-class establishment. Anti-fascists really should disassociate their own politics from those that alienate working-class people. We can offer a challenge to the status quo that is progressive and not racist.

Militant anti-fascism appears to be very narrowly understood in a manner foreign to working-class politics (look at anti-fascism in the 1930's which was far more than calling Mosely a Nazi). I hesitate to say it for fear of side-tracking the debate, but it is middle-class political correctness to see anti-fascism as a moral crusade against nasty people. It should be - and used to be - about offering the working class a political alternative, ie housing campaigns, unemployment campaigns etc as well as the odd battle of cable street. Of course, the Communist Party - which led most of the progressive campaigns - is thankfully dead as a dodo (as is Leninism and Trotskyism, thankfully). We have to reinvent a Left project (if you want to call it Left - and I wouldn't necessarily) that can advance the interests of the working class which - as a by-product - undermines fascism and the likes of the BNP.
THAT is what anti-fascism should be and needs to be - otherwise it's just so much hot air ... balloons and lollipops ...

 

[butchersapron]

Very good post, well made points.

Those you disagree with will say ''That's what we saying all along'

 

[JTG]

*applauds*

I'm not interested in "anti-fascism" which is allied to establishment parties and encourages people to vote for them

 

[audiotech]

Very good post, well made points.

Those you disagree with will say ''That's what we saying all along'

I don't think so.

The idea to have a left project that is not left and is absent of any ideology cannot sustain itself for very long.

The IWCA is a case in point.

 

[lights.out.london]

*applauds*

I'm not interested in "anti-fascism" which is allied to establishment parties and encourages people to vote for them

Like it.

 

[geoff64]

I don't think so.

The idea to have a left project that is not left and is absent of any ideology cannot sustain itself for very long.

The IWCA is a case in point.

apologies for posting this on this thread as well - but I'm finding that what i want to respond is being articulted (if that is the right word ) on both...


blimey, there are too many threads on the same subject for me to keep up (and i thought i was ok at multi-tasking).

just one thing, here, though, I think people have misrepresented the "iwca strategy". It ain't just about getting people elected - we will never be succesful at that all the time (or even most of the time). Of course, if you enter the elctoral arena, you do tend to judge your results by how many votes you get, but that ain't the be all and end all of the strategy, tbh. It's about offering a practical alternative to main-stream politics AND innoculating areas against far-right influence.

Again, people will no doubt point to the fact that where the "iwca strategy" has been consistently applied over the last 10 years or so, the far right has not been particularly active. Harold Hill offers an intersting case where "iwca strategy" has not been consistently applied - tried and collapsed unfortunately - and these things happen - and here we see the BNP are active.

For instance, despite "iwca electoral strategy" taking a knock in Oxford and failing to get elected in Islington or Hackney, does not mean that the BNP would have a free ride in those areas as they have in Barking & Dagenham. Difficult to prove, naturally, but I really do think that if "iwca strategy" had taken root in Barking - whether or not there were elected cllrs to show for it - then the BNP would not have been able to capitalise on conditions there as successfully as they have done.

 

[geoff64]

By the way MC5, I'm not really interested in whether it's called or perceived as a Left project at all. The old ideologies are fuckin dead (good riddance) and we are trying to invent/reinvent something different for new times. That don't mean that a new project has to be bereft of ideology - just not banging on and on with the old stuff that makes little sense to people anymore.

If it makes it easier for you, let's try some blended wine in some new (if albeit partially recycled) bottles ...

 

[durruti02]

There's quite a lot of misunderstanding here.

Those of us who criticise the Left's response to the BNP (ie Lollipops and whistles and chants of Nazi's out outside the GLA) do not deny - necessarily - that the BNP are at core fascist, only that the strategy to defeat them cannot come ONLY from calling them Nazi's. As well as exposing the anti-workibg class logic of BNP policy - and yes, exposing their past espousal of openly racist and fascist positions - we should also offer a positive challenge to them by attempting to create a space for working-class resistance where people see some point in fighting for themselves instead of believing the "we can sort it out for you" crap spouted by the BNP (and by other parties, for that matter). People who vote BNP predominantly do so because they feel alienated from the political process, unrepresented and patronised by the middle-class establishment. Anti-fascists really should disassociate their own politics from those that alienate working-class people. We can offer a challenge to the status quo that is progressive and not racist.

Militant anti-fascism appears to be very narrowly understood in a manner foreign to working-class politics (look at anti-fascism in the 1930's which was far more than calling Mosely a Nazi). I hesitate to say it for fear of side-tracking the debate, but it is middle-class political correctness to see anti-fascism as a moral crusade against nasty people. It should be - and used to be - about offering the working class a political alternative, ie housing campaigns, unemployment campaigns etc as well as the odd battle of cable street. Of course, the Communist Party - which led most of the progressive campaigns - is thankfully dead as a dodo (as is Leninism and Trotskyism, thankfully). We have to reinvent a Left project (if you want to call it Left - and I wouldn't necessarily) that can advance the interests of the working class which - as a by-product - undermines fascism and the likes of the BNP.
THAT is what anti-fascism should be and needs to be - otherwise it's just so much hot air ... balloons and lollipops ...

i agree with everything except you still use the words 'anti fascism' .. that just confuses it .. simple class politics is all what we need .. call it anti fascism and it is perceived as everything you criticise ..

 

[durruti02]

I don't think so.

The idea to have a left project that is not left and is absent of any ideology cannot sustain itself for very long.

The IWCA is a case in point.

the iwca is "absent of any ideology"???!! MC you surpass yourself .. no it is absent of the outdated arrogent patronising authoritarian managerial leninist politics that sums up the UK left .. is that what you meant??

 

[audiotech]

By the way MC5, I'm not really interested in whether it's called or perceived as a Left project at all. The old ideologies are fuckin dead (good riddance) and we are trying to invent/reinvent something different for new times. That don't mean that a new project has to be bereft of ideology - just not banging on and on with the old stuff that makes little sense to people anymore.

If it makes it easier for you, let's try some blended wine in some new (if albeit partially recycled) bottles ...

I like the cut of your gib sir. Mines a tot of rum.

 

[butchersapron]

Unbelievable

 

[audiotech]

the iwca is "absent of any ideology"???!! MC you surpass yourself .. no it is absent of the outdated arrogent patronising authoritarian managerial leninist politics that sums up the UK left .. is that what you meant??

You might want to learn how to communicate your politics by reading geoff64's posts and control that short temper of yours.

 

[audiotech]

Unbelievable

What? That I'm open to a rational debate and new ideas, rather than semantic nonsense or one word put downs.

 

[geoff64]

What? That I'm open to a rational debate and new ideas, rather than semantic nonsense or one word put downs.

to be honest you aren't exactly shy of the one-word "put-down" yourself are you ...?