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Griffin and BNP strategy

ResistanceMP3 said:
1)sorry, controlling immigration by only allowing local people to have local jobs, yes? which will reduce the level of immigration yes? I don't agree that is a solution. that isn't what I meant to say.

2) My friends and family, working class people, have reactionary ideas, ALONG WITH AND I HASTEN TO ADD SOME VERY PROGRESSIVE IDEAS. I don't appeal to them by agreeing with what I personally veiw as a reactionary opinions, immigrants are part of the problem, I appeal to them on the basis of their Progressive views, let's unite black and white and save the a local hospital. And as an antifascist, anti-sexist, and to lots of things, I do challenge the ideas in my friends and families head that I disagree with.

3)You and butch seem to be saying we shouldn't, BUT IF the fascists are a working class concern why do you refuse to address that concern?
like the antifascistts,

4) Fair enough.did you also say,you don't have two vote for any of them,just refuse to vote, it's only encourages all of the bastard politician's? its allright to protest in over hunger, but not by voting for plague.anyway, don't give up on him comerade, try and win him to your methods.

5) go back and read, I did actually distinguish between you and the toy town revolutionaries.

6) well unfortunately comerade, that is ONE of the qualities in MY definition of a "toy town revolutionaries". Writing off a COMRADE you have been unable to win to your analysis, as "an enemy". Normally it would more applied to people like J*E, maybe b******s, more intent on one line putdowns of their "enemies", than a reasonable debate.
Click to expand...

1) yet again a leftist saying he is against helping kids/local people get local jobs .. sorry this is SO unbelievable for a socialist to say this and a policy that has been disasterous to the left ..

2) yet again i NEVER EVER say immigrants are part of the problem and nor does butchers or TB or anyone i can think of on urban .. honestly mate the inability of the left to confuse a criticque of the neo liberal use of migrants and the right wing position of being against immigrants is fundamental in illustrating the lefts and all of our problems

3) i do not say we should not deal with the fascists .. what i DO say is to do that under the banner of anti fascism is counter productive .. the bnp should be addressed by local grassroots campaigns, like anything else that attempts to disempower ordianry people

4) yes of course i did .. he voted boris second .. he has got more stick for that than voting bnp :D .. there is no question that he would vote for a iwca or similar moe than bnp as would most people i know who have given up on all the major parties .. he and they would not vote leftlist or respect as the associate them with being muslim parties

5) yes apologies you did .. i did not notice :)

6) i do not write off the maj of the left or even trots .. and tbh i do not write of all i call an 'enemy' .. you are correct that it would be wrong to do so BUT surely people who disempower others are wrong? maybe enemy is to casual a word so maybe you are correct to criticise my use of that word BUT this is an issue the left ignore .. disempowerment is one of THE major issues with w/c people at the moment .. one of peoples major complaints about e.g. immigration is that they have NO choice in this .. and yet again the left have blanked them for saying this

take care mate :)
 
Less about politics, more about people – for it is by serving the people that we will secure enough extra votes to keep our bandwagon rolling towards the power we need to have a serious impact on politics and the future.
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Did Hitler ever come up with that one?
Bet he would kick himself if he missed it.

BMP politics are simple.
1) Make people think they are the only party interested in your local problems.
2) Push as many anti anyone you don't like stories as you can (Truth not important)
3) Fuck up the country.

Nut cases like Griffin never learn that their hate only ends up destroying what they claim to love.


Edited to say that I'm not suggesting that durruti02 in any way supports the far right bastards.
 
2 by elections with BNP canddiates coming up in Carlisle and Allerdale. Possibly significant council by election coming soon in a Hornchurch ward, which I expect BNP to stand in, as it was their 3rd most promising Havering ward in 2004 ( do not have ward figures for the 2008 election yet)
 
derf said:
Did Hitler ever come up with that one?
Bet he would kick himself if he missed it.

BMP politics are simple.
1) Make people think they are the only party interested in your local problems.
2) Push as many anti anyone you don't like stories as you can (Truth not important)
3) Fuck up the country.

Nut cases like Griffin never learn that their hate only ends up destroying what they claim to love.
Click to expand...

can you edit that qoute above that appears to be from me but some people might not realise is not?? :)
 
On a diffeerent website which shall remain namless Butchers says there are lots of articles around about anti fascism - Do you have any links Butch? Or is that more fantasy from you?
 
Just a point - people gabble on about 'a vote that the left would die for' but that is a misreading of political history. It is even post-modernist analysis!!

The misreading is due to a failure to understand the history of the left in the period since the foundation of the LRC. It is not so long ago that the LRC/Labour party at the start of WW1 had only 36 seats. It only had 5 seats in 1905 and one of them left to go to the liberals. This period is characterised by left pluralism, there are many views and parties of the working class.

Progressing to WW2 and after, the Labour party only arrived really with the defeat of Churchill in 1945. Combine this with the emergence of Fordism and full employment/Modernism, the left was faced with new challenges.

This is the period of inclusion of the Trade union and Labour party hierarchy within the status quo. So, the 1950's saw the rethinking of Left politics by some, the first period to see the emergence of Left independence against the current. Leftism was to become the mole burrowing within the Labour movement and Trade unions, votes for anybody else than Labour were seen as Ultra Left positions, as was a position outside Trade unions. This period has still not ended, although it is blurring with the new conditions.

In the current period to say that 'the BNP get a vote the Left would die for' is a utopian arguement divorced from the history of the Left.
 
Year on year decline

The following analysis disagrees with the BNP are doing well approach, and is evidence of combined and uneven development of class consciousness. Orthodox politico's can only bluster in the face of real world evidence which disagrees with their pov.

In most areas the BNP share of the vote was well down on last year, which in itself was down on the previous election, particularly in its traditional heartlands.

Local
authority Sandwell Dudley Kirklees Burnley Thurrock
2006 33.0% 26.5% 18.4% 30.0% 26.7%
2007 24.6% 18.7% 16.5% 25.1% 24.5%
2008 17.4% 14.7% 14.4% 22.8% 21.4%

Broxbourne
2006 N/A
2007 20.0%
2008 15.4%

Epping
2006 N/A
2007 18.5%
2008 15.0%
 
Durrito, I wrote this a couple of days ago in response to one of your posts, but can't find it now. I think you ask me a question like, "what are you going to do, ask the most progressive people opposed to new Labour to vote new Labour"?

Sure why not? I don't understand your logic. It is perfectly possible for the progressive members of the working class to be against new Labour, whilst being against fascism as even worse. The majority accept, that even where you have a openly new Labour candidate, it is more progressive to vote for the new Labour candidate, than to vote for a fascist who will only make things even worse, don't they? isn't it a bit elitist to say working-class people don't understand it is more progressive to vote new labour than vote fascist?

However, in my area 1300 voted for Labour, and 800 voted for the fascist. The Labour candidate was old the Labour through and through, lives in the area, and is not a bad counciler and I wouldn't say he was a careerist. The fascist doesn't live in the area, they have never done anything in the area. Everything you say about building a relationship with the working class, you know like doing grassroots work etc is, it's the opposite way round. The Labour councillor does stuff, within the confines of the capitalist system, and the fascist does fuck all. How can you say the fascist vote, is a vote against new Labour neoliberalism and councillors doing nothing in an old Labour fashion, when my local experience doesn't back up your argument? (I'm going to do some research, on the vote for the Conservatives etc historically. And try and analyse where the boat is coming from.)

Also, are you really trying to tell me the 800 are more progressive ("the most progressive hate new Labour") than the 1300.

btw, there are hardly any immigrants in my ward.

Oh yes, another example which rebuts your analysis. two wards away from me my friend who used to be an SW member was a candidate for Respect renewal. Her, and several other SW members have virtually all left SW. They are involved with many other politicals. They have also introduced many members of the community to political struggle. They have been highly active on the streets virtually every week for the last, well since before the Iraq war. This is a multi ethnic area, with a high Moslem percentage. You have met me, and you know when I say if you met these 4 ex-SW members you would be very impressed with their working class and activist credentials, you can guess what they are like. The Labour councillor she ran against is white, male, new Labour, deputy leader of City Council. Basically they're doing everything you say they should, Respect in a Muslim area, and they still got less votes than the Tory party. LP 1735 CON 673, RR 502. in my area Bnp 800 v 1300.




Now the thing is working class people in my area are concerned about the rise of the fascist vote, but are not agreed about the kind of manifesto you would apply. Now what you and butchers aka napoleon seem to be saying, is that Socialist should ignore this wish to oppose fascism, whilst not sharing a political perspective. What I need to know is, why do we HAVE TO address concerns about the number of immigrants, and have NOT TO address concerns about fascism on a united front basisi?
 
Attica said:
The following analysis disagrees with the BNP are doing well approach, and is evidence of combined and uneven development of class consciousness. Orthodox politico's can only bluster in the face of real world evidence which disagrees with their pov.

In most areas the BNP share of the vote was well down on last year, which in itself was down on the previous election, particularly in its traditional heartlands.

Local
authority Sandwell Dudley Kirklees Burnley Thurrock
2006 33.0% 26.5% 18.4% 30.0% 26.7%
2007 24.6% 18.7% 16.5% 25.1% 24.5%
2008 17.4% 14.7% 14.4% 22.8% 21.4%

Broxbourne
2006 N/A
2007 20.0%
2008 15.4%

Epping
2006 N/A
2007 18.5%
2008 15.0%
Click to expand...

Ho ho ho - no reply to this cogent analysis:D
 
Louis MacNeice said:
Cherry picking doesn't equal analysis (cogent or otherwise).
Click to expand...

These fruit are more frequent than you may imagine, this isn't counting areas such as SUnderland where their vote is going down year on year too.

But that's your problem as I said, you can explains the ups but not the consistent downs in BNP votes, and so your theory is half baked:D:p Yours is not so much Marxism, more like empirical utopianism.:eek::D
 
Attica said:
The following analysis disagrees with the BNP are doing well approach, and is evidence of combined and uneven development of class consciousness. Orthodox politico's can only bluster in the face of real world evidence which disagrees with their pov.

In most areas the BNP share of the vote was well down on last year, which in itself was down on the previous election, particularly in its traditional heartlands.

Local
authority Sandwell Dudley Kirklees Burnley Thurrock
2006 33.0% 26.5% 18.4% 30.0% 26.7%
2007 24.6% 18.7% 16.5% 25.1% 24.5%
2008 17.4% 14.7% 14.4% 22.8% 21.4%

Broxbourne
2006 N/A
2007 20.0%
2008 15.4%

Epping
2006 N/A
2007 18.5%
2008 15.0%
Click to expand...


in the west midlands there have been splits, as there was nationally, as you rememeber, ( did you not say that was the end of them at one point?) which have also affected Kirklees ( where there is opposition to Griffin) In Burnley i suspect predictably in-effective councillors will push down their vote. In the south east they were totally squeezed by the Tories. They remain a protest party and where they have poreviously done well it is quite likely their voite WILL drop. What is of MORE interest is where they do convert this to councillors and they continue to so so.

The fact remains their overall vote continues to increae rapidly to levels never before seen in this country and only a fool ( or one uninvolved ) dismisses the affect this has on working class reorganisation
 
durruti02 said:
A) The fact remains their overall vote continues to increae rapidly to levels never before seen in this country

B)and only a fool ( or one uninvolved ) dismisses the affect this has on working class reorganisation
Click to expand...

A) How so? Considering their 808K vote in 2004? You haven't demonstrated this at all. They stand in new areas, and get a variety of votes from piss poor to good, and their overall national vote falls as a result of standing outside their bases. Talking of the NE, they stand tester candidates from their base, and they only hoover up votes that were already there. I do not see why this worries you as much. How is this increasing overall in a context where they got 808K in 2004 - they haven't surpassed this.

B) W/c reorganisation of the socks and underpants drawer? How is this directly affecting working class abilities now and today? Tbh the problem is the lack of struggles and the circulation of class struggles, in other words it is a problem of unity rather than division.
 
Attica said:
A) How so? Considering their 808K vote in 2004? You haven't demonstrated this at all. They stand in new areas, and get a variety of votes from piss poor to good, and their overall national vote falls as a result of standing outside their bases. Talking of the NE, they stand tester candidates from their base, and they only hoover up votes that were already there. I do not see why this worries you as much. How is this increasing overall in a context where they got 808K in 2004 - they haven't surpassed this.

B) W/c reorganisation of the socks and underpants drawer? How is this directly affecting working class abilities now and today? Tbh the problem is the lack of struggles and the circulation of class struggles, in other words it is a problem of unity rather than division.
Click to expand...

a) shakes head .. that 800k was their euro vote .. in local elections in 2004 they got just 200k votes .. how mnay did they get this time?

b) meaningless
 
durruti02 said:
a) shakes head .. that 800k was their euro vote .. in local elections in 2004 they got just 200k votes .. how mnay did they get this time?

b) meaningless
Click to expand...

A) DOh!! My point is that they already got shed loads of votes, you are now saying their 2008 council vote is up on the 2004 council vote - absolutely in numbers or by what %?

SO they stood more candidates and got more votes? So what? The votes were ALREADY THERE as proved by the Euro vote. It is you freaks who need to wake up and smell the coffee a bit more.

B) Only if you consider class struggle to be meaningless.
 
BNP doing well here? Erm. NO!

"Is Barrow in Furness the most left wing town in Britain? Is this town hall the new Smolny? The answer is YES! While the left suffered defeats the SOCIALIST PEOPLES PARTY OF BARROW gained seats as did a local ANTI-ACADEMY SCHOOLS GROUP while the BNP belly flopped. Check out our man on the spot’s analysis at www.nation-of-duncan.blogspot.com
And they’ve got their own nuclear strike force! Be afraid Mr. Brown...."
 
Attica said:
BNP doing well here? Erm. NO!

"Is Barrow in Furness the most left wing town in Britain? Is this town hall the new Smolny? The answer is YES! While the left suffered defeats the SOCIALIST PEOPLES PARTY OF BARROW gained seats as did a local ANTI-ACADEMY SCHOOLS GROUP while the BNP belly flopped. Check out our man on the spot’s analysis at www.nation-of-duncan.blogspot.com
And they’ve got their own nuclear strike force! Be afraid Mr. Brown...."
Click to expand...

And in the rest of the blog, Duncan appears to reach conclusions that are the exact opposite of yours.

http://nation-of-duncan.blogspot.com/2008/05/labours-collapse-and-lefts-failure.html
 
Attica said:
These fruit are more frequent than you may imagine, this isn't counting areas such as SUnderland where their vote is going down year on year too.

But that's your problem as I said, you can explains the ups but not the consistent downs in BNP votes, and so your theory is half baked:D:p Yours is not so much Marxism, more like empirical utopianism.:eek::D
Click to expand...

Still no analysis, just more of the usual self serving verbiage.
 
You are a crack pot and a pain, I have already told you about my experience of my nephews mates in the NE and their overt support for the BNP. One thing never considered on here is that maybe many of the people who would vote BNP just don't vote, I suspect support for the BNP, etc, is much higher than local voting tallies would indicate.


Imo, bar the party splitting/imploding, it is inevitable that the BNP will at some point control/hold the balance of power in some smaller councils. Perhaps looking at the example of France, where the FN took control of some major Southern Depts, things got nasty, eg. cuts in arts projects, etc, but the world didn't fall in. Its NL and the New Tories who have/ are going to cause the most damage to the UK. When one of the only things that binds us in the Uk, the welfare state, and the NHS unravels and maybe disappears, then imo, that is when the shit hits the fan.

meanwhile, we can look forward to another period of 70's style, 'nazis out', while the left ignores the issues which is creating the ferment.
 
treelover said:
You are a crack pot and a pain, I have already told you about my experience of my nephews mates in the NE and their overt support for the BNP. One thing never considered on here is that maybe many of the people who would vote BNP just don't vote, I suspect support for the BNP, etc, is much higher than local voting tallies would indicate.


Imo, bar the party splitting/imploding, it is inevitable that the BNP will at some point control/hold the balance of power in some smaller councils. Perhaps looking at the example of France, where the FN took control of some major Southern Depts, things got nasty, eg. cuts in arts projects, etc, but the world didn't fall in. Its NL and the New Tories who have/ are going to cause the most damage to the UK. When one of the only things that binds us in the Uk, the welfare state, and the NHS unravels and maybe disappears, then imo, that is when the shit hits the fan.

meanwhile, we can look forward to another period of 70's style, 'nazis out', while the left ignores the issues which is creating the ferment.
Click to expand...

Louis' not that bad.
 
Paul Marsh said:
And in the rest of the blog, Duncan appears to reach conclusions that are the exact opposite of yours.

http://nation-of-duncan.blogspot.com/2008/05/labours-collapse-and-lefts-failure.html
Click to expand...

I have said that 'the BNP are doing ok for a petite bourgois party', (what has Duncan said which is the opposite of this?) that is a middle of the road assesment.

Do you think about what I write at all? You as usual, prefer to take an idealised position and project it as my real position. You, and t'others, look at things simplistically because you like nice neat and tidy positions, so you only have a simple binary 'bad v. good', 'doing well V. doing poorly'. This is not real world at all.

On the web here my posts are often opposite to the 'BNP are doing well Brigade' because, and this is an autonomist political reading of fascism - if you look at the totality they are not doing as well as 'you' would lead us to believe.
 
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