Griffin and BNP strategy

[audiotech]

to be honest you aren't exactly shy of the one-word "put-down" yourself are you ...?

I give as good as I get fella.

 

[geoff64]

i agree with everything except you still use the words 'anti fascism' .. that just confuses it .. simple class politics is all what we need .. call it anti fascism and it is perceived as everything you criticise ..

Can't agree with you. You appear to be arguing that we dump "Anti-fascism" for purely semantic reasons. talk about chucking the proverbial baby out of the window!

RECLAIM ANTI-FASCISM FOR THE PURIST VANGUARDS OF THE WORKING CLASS NOW!

 

[durruti02]

Can't agree with you. You appear to be arguing that we dump "Anti-fascism" for purely semantic reasons. talk about chucking the proverbial baby out of the window!

RECLAIM ANTI-FASCISM FOR THE PURIST VANGUARDS OF THE WORKING CLASS NOW!

no not semantic .. it is important .. to go down the route of anti fascism is disasterous .. we need miltant anti capitalism .. fascism,bnp is a distraction that we fall for at our peril

 

[geoff64]

no not semantic .. it is important .. to go down the route of anti fascism is disasterous .. we need miltant anti capitalism .. fascism,bnp is a distraction that we fall for at our peril

I do know what you mean, but fascism exists and i think that countering fascism - in the context of "militant anti-capitalism" - is an important element.

I do think that anti-fascists have a very narrow conception of anti-fascism but I wouldn't want to alienate those who are motivated by anti-racism -which let's face it is the ostensible face of anti-fascism as superficially understood by most anti-fascists in the wider movement - by just banging on about "capitalism".

But, I do know that what you mean by "anti-capitalism" isn't the globalise resistance - ignore the local - variety.

"Anti-fascism's" still OK afaic, despite the Lefty emphasis on a liberal-moralist version that appeals to the middle-classes (although not exclusively, natch) ...

 

[The Black Hand]

no not semantic .. it is important .. to go down the route of anti fascism is disasterous .. we need miltant anti capitalism .. fascism,bnp is a distraction that we fall for at our peril

That is ultra leftism, to dismiss something in advance of any practice. Now I am not suggesting that we go for traditional united fronts, but I don't think we should abandon the politial fight for creating progressive versions of it in the 21st century. If you do not participate, you are leaving the door open for the mass & reactionary variety of United front you say you are against.

 

[TremulousTetra]

"For me anti-fascism is about stopping the current situation getting worse, it is not about changing the fundamental exploitative nature of capitalist society."

i think this is fundamentally wrong .. fascism is a SYMPTOM of wider forces .. to concentrate on the bnp in the present moment is INSANE absolutely INSANE .. it is the forces that create the bnp that we must attack if we are to hope to undercut them and create a movement that will overtake them .. ONLY then can we in any way hope to roll back their advance

you are correct though in this .. fascism can not be destroyed before capital is destroyed .. but look at that again .. then we must concentrate on capital .. to do anything else is to let the allow the greater forces to carry on with their neo liberal project and fall for a massive red herring

ok so you have people who fundamentally opposed to the things you would suggest,but they one hundred percent agree with you about opposing fascism.you are basically saying to them "fuckoff, you cannot be a part of the antifascist movement unless you share a Socialist perspective"? not really the way to build a MASS MOVEMENT is it?

then read my comments above, in embryo building this mass movement you are potentially building the kind of movement from below which then could go on to take on the kind of issues you are talking about. do you see what I mean? It's about having faith in your politics. it's about understanding that struggle, the activity of opposing fascism, the activity of striking etc, is far better at transforming people's ideas than propaganda. you don't win people to your tactics through words, you win people through examples of material gains won by using the correct tactics

 

[TremulousTetra]

What? That I'm open to a rational debate and new ideas, rather than semantic nonsense or one word put downs.

everybody knows that is the only thing you will get from butchers.

he is obviously clever, I could obviously learn quite a lot from him, but he point-blank refuses to help people. I am genuinely interested in his attack upon the theory of contradictory levels of consciousness, for example, but despite asking many times he will not go beyond inane onegline putdowns. So elitist.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I do know what you mean, but fascism exists and i think that countering fascism - in the context of "militant anti-capitalism" - is an important element.

I do think that anti-fascists have a very narrow conception of anti-fascism but I wouldn't want to alienate those who are motivated by anti-racism -which let's face it is the ostensible face of anti-fascism as superficially understood by most anti-fascists in the wider movement - by just banging on about "capitalism".

But, I do know that what you mean by "anti-capitalism" isn't the globalise resistance - ignore the local - variety.

"Anti-fascism's" still OK afaic, despite the Lefty emphasis on a liberal-moralist version that appeals to the middle-classes (although not exclusively, natch) ...

applause. it is good to see you coming back on the ultra left. but Look at de kind of response your original comments engender.

*applauds*

I'm not interested in "anti-fascism" which is allied to establishment parties and encourages people to vote for them

So in the real world JTG is not interested in being involved with any mass a/f campaign, because let's be honest, in the UK 2008 can you really perceive a mass anti-fascist campaign upon which the Labour Party would not "jump up on the bandwagon"? and why shouldn't they?anybody who believes that the Labour Party membershipare not genuinely against Fascism, I'm sorry they are just conspiracy theory loons. people like butchers are just toytown revolutionaries more interested in flashing their revolutionary credentials by attacking the left, than fighting the right.


-----------
PS. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE UAF IS BEYOND CRITICISM. look at my comments above, the antifascist movement is at the moment failing to build the mass movement required. my simple point is, whilst a/f is failing, the elitism of JTG butch etc, is no solution.

 

[durruti02]

I do know what you mean, but fascism exists and i think that countering fascism - in the context of "militant anti-capitalism" - is an important element.

I do think that anti-fascists have a very narrow conception of anti-fascism but I wouldn't want to alienate those who are motivated by anti-racism -which let's face it is the ostensible face of anti-fascism as superficially understood by most anti-fascists in the wider movement - by just banging on about "capitalism".

But, I do know that what you mean by "anti-capitalism" isn't the globalise resistance - ignore the local - variety.

"Anti-fascism's" still OK afaic, despite the Lefty emphasis on a liberal-moralist version that appeals to the middle-classes (although not exclusively, natch) ...

hey i agree 100% with first sentance .. but then you change back again in the last sentance!

 

[TremulousTetra]

I do know what you mean, but fascism exists and i think that countering fascism - in the context of "militant anti-capitalism" - is an important element.

I do think that anti-fascists have a very narrow conception of anti-fascism but I wouldn't want to alienate those who are motivated by anti-racism -which let's face it is the ostensible face of anti-fascism as superficially understood by most anti-fascists in the wider movement - by just banging on about "capitalism".

But, I do know that what you mean by "anti-capitalism" isn't the globalise resistance - ignore the local - variety.

"Anti-fascism's" still OK afaic, despite the Lefty emphasis on a liberal-moralist version that appeals to the middle-classes (although not exclusively, natch) ...

applause. it is good to see you coming back on the ultra left. but Look at de kind of response your original comments engender.

*applauds*

I'm not interested in "anti-fascism" which is allied to establishment parties and encourages people to vote for them

So in the real world JTG is not interested in being involved with any mass a/f campaign, because let's be honest, in the UK 2008 can you really perceive a mass anti-fascist campaign upon which the Labour Party would not "jump up on the bandwagon"? and why shouldn't they?anybody who believes that the Labour Party membershipare not genuinely against Fascism, I'm sorry they are just conspiracy theory loons. people like butchers are just toytown revolutionaries more interested in flashing their revolutionary credentials by attacking the left, than fighting the right.


-----------
PS. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE US IS BEYOND CRITICISM. look at my comments above, the antifascist movement is at the moment failing to build the mass movement required. my simple point is, while still a failing, the elitism of JTG butch etc, is no solution.

 

[durruti02]

ok so you have people who fundamentally opposed to the things you would suggest,but they one hundred percent agree with you about opposing fascism.you are basically saying to them "fuckoff, you cannot be a part of the antifascist movement unless you share a Socialist perspective"? not really the way to build a MASS MOVEMENT is it?

then read my comments above, in embryo building this mass movement you are potentially building the kind of movement from below which then could go on to take on the kind of issues you are talking about. do you see what I mean? It's about having faith in your politics. it's about understanding that struggle, the activity of opposing fascism, the activity of striking etc, is far better at transforming people's ideas than propaganda. you don't win people to your tactics through words, you win people through examples of material gains won by using the correct tactics

RM .. it is amazing you have the front to accuse me in this way when the accusation falls far better on the swp

let me ask you .. how many people are there in your 'left'? i'll answer for you .. very few! IF, IF your movement was big yourt criticisms might make more sense .. but it is not .. it is tiny ..

there are millions of disillusioned w/c people out there who want change .. it is not ME being exclusive or ultra left or but the swp left with their insistance that last year muslims were teh issue and now this year the bnp is the issue ..

iwca hi are REAL OUTWARD looking wanting to work with ordinary people .. with far far far fewwer resources than the swp left they have gained albeit in small areas an interest from w/c people that is way beyond what you have done since the early 7ts and that at a time of high struggle ..

i am not saying in the slightest i will not work with anyone .. except those who are instituting attacks on the w/c ( labour councils etc) ..

 

[durruti02]

applause. it is good to see you coming back on the ultra left. but Look at de kind of response your original comments engender.So in the real world JTG is not interested in being involved with any mass a/f campaign, because let's be honest, in the UK 2008 can you really perceive a mass anti-fascist campaign upon which the Labour Party would not "jump up on the bandwagon"? and why shouldn't they?anybody who believes that the Labour Party membershipare not genuinely against Fascism, I'm sorry they are just conspiracy theory loons. people like butchers are just toytown revolutionaries more interested in flashing their revolutionary credentials by attacking the left, than fighting the right.


-----------
PS. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE US IS BEYOND CRITICISM. look at my comments above, the antifascist movement is at the moment failing to build the mass movement required. my simple point is, while still a failing, the elitism of JTG butch etc, is no solution.

what creates fascism rm?

so what we need is opposition to that surely?

how is that ultra leftism!!

 

[The Black Hand]

applause. it is good to see you coming back on the ultra left. but Look at de kind of response your original comments engender.So in the real world JTG is not interested in being involved with any mass a/f campaign, because let's be honest, in the UK 2008 can you really perceive a mass anti-fascist campaign upon which the Labour Party would not "jump up on the bandwagon"? and why shouldn't they?anybody who believes that the Labour Party membershipare not genuinely against Fascism, I'm sorry they are just conspiracy theory loons. people like butchers are just toytown revolutionaries more interested in flashing their revolutionary credentials by attacking the left, than fighting the right.


-----------
PS. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE US IS BEYOND CRITICISM. look at my comments above, the antifascist movement is at the moment failing to build the mass movement required. my simple point is, while still a failing, the elitism of JTG butch etc, is no solution.

I have a lot on sympathy for this pov, at the minute butch/iwca etc are the ultra left.

Ideas change in and thru' struggle, in a situation where working class politics has been in and around the labour party and trade unions (like it or not) it is ultra left crap to write all these millions of people off in advance. How can you dismiss the class conscious working class like this? And this in a situation where evidence overwhelmingly shows a widespread apolitical culture, you would write off those who are showing signs of class consciousness.

It can't do, it won't do.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Personally, I wouldn't urge them to vote for any other parties. My role is, as I said, to urge them not to vote BNP.

I took a tactical decision myself and voted to keep the tories out and to limit the impact of the BNP.

Sadly, no other choice was available.

Here in a nutshell is the failure at the heart of conservative anti-fascism. It knows what its against but refuses or is unable to say what it is for. Putting it is pleading with working class people, in the main, not to vote 'extremist' when it is the extremists who appear to be the only people addressing the issues that concern them. This echoes the Blair plea that 'there is plenty of choice within the mainstream'. But there isn't. All subscribe to one degree or another the same right-wing anti-working class neo-liberal formula.

By lining up behind or with them the increasingly common perception is that it is only the BNP who are for the working class and representative of them. Predictably the BNP is now seen as the 'radical alternative' while conservative 'anti-fascism' is regarded as a tool of the status quo. In the short term Hope not Hate and so on may retard the growth of the BNP but at a cost of further radicalising the hundreds of thousands who already back them and potentially the millions ignored and betrayed by all the neo-liberal parties.

 

[The Black Hand]

Here in a nutshell is the failure at the heart of conservative anti-fascism. It knows what its against but refuses or is unable to say what it is for. Putting it is pleading with working class people, in the main, not to vote 'extremist' when it is the extremists who appear to be the only people addressing the issues that concern them. This echoes the Blair plea that 'there is plenty of choice within the mainstream'. But there isn't. All subscribe to one degree or another the same right-wing anti-working class neo-liberal formula.

By lining up behind or with them the increasingly common perception is that it is only the BNP who are for the working class and representative of them. Predictably the BNP is now seen as the 'radical alternative' while conservative 'anti-fascism' is regarded as a tool of the status quo. In the short term Hope not Hate and so on may retard the growth of the BNP but at a cost of further radicalising the hundreds of thousands who already back them and potentially the millions ignored and betrayed by all the neo-liberal parties.

Any evidence for this JOe? "while conservative 'anti-fascism' is regarded as a tool of the status quo"

 

[audiotech]

Here in a nutshell is the failure at the heart of conservative anti-fascism. It knows what its against but refuses or is unable to say what it is for. Putting it is pleading with working class people, in the main, not to vote 'extremist' when it is the extremists who appear to be the only people addressing the issues that concern them. This echoes the Blair plea that 'there is plenty of choice within the mainstream'. But there isn't. All subscribe to one degree or another the same right-wing anti-working class neo-liberal formula.

By lining up behind or with them the increasingly common perception is that it is only the BNP who are for the working class and representative of them. Predictably the BNP is now seen as the 'radical alternative' while conservative 'anti-fascism' is regarded as a tool of the status quo. In the short term Hope not Hate and so on may retard the growth of the BNP but at a cost of further radicalising the hundreds of thousands who already back them and potentially the millions ignored and betrayed by all the neo-liberal parties.

I've always been in favour of workers power (not the sect), pretty radical stuff really, but that's old hat to the likes of you.

 

[Joe Reilly]

I don't think so.

The idea to have a left project that is not left and is absent of any ideology cannot sustain itself for very long.

The IWCA is a case in point.

The IWCA is pro-working class pure and simple. Only a left that is divorced from the working class regards that as suspicious and controversial. As for ideology whatever happened the ideologically pure SA and SLP?

Or Respect for that matter? A project steeped in cynicism, short-termism and opportunism if there ever was one.
Tell me did idelogy lead the SWP into that predicatable cul-de-sac? Or was it a deviation from ideology?

On a wider level was it ideology or its absence that caused the SWP to lend tacit support to the campiagn for inter-generational sex in 1980, refuse to support the miners in 1984, the anti-poll tax campaign in 1990, Republican hunger strikers, and in 1997 hailed the Blair victory in 1997 as ' a class vote!'

Odd isn't it that without being armed with 'ideology' ie (liberalism laced with Stalinsim) the IWCA has so avoided similar pratfalls?

 

[audiotech]

The IWCA is pro-working class pure and simple. Only a left that is divorced from the working class regards that as suspicious and controversial. As for ideology whatever happened the ideologically pure SA and SLP?

Or Respect for that matter? A project steeped in cynicism, short-termism and opportunism if there ever was one.
Tell me did idelogy lead the SWP into that predicatable cul-de-sac? Or was it a deviation from ideology?

On a wider level was it ideology or its absence that caused the SWP to lend tacit support to the campiagn for inter-generational sex in 1980, refuse to support the miners in 1984, the anti-poll tax campaign in 1990, Republican hunger strikers, and in 1997 hailed the Blair victory in 1997 as ' a class vote!'

Odd isn't it that without being armed with 'ideology' ie (liberalism laced with Stalinsim) the IWCA has so avoided similar pratfalls?

The SA wanted to be too pure, the SLP was top down control freakery.

Respect was a serious, but a failed attempt to to garner some of the millions who marched against the war and to forge an electoral challenge to New Labour.

As for intergenerational sex? Wasn't that something to do with defending homosexuals campaigning for lowering the age of consent who were being vilified in the right wing press? Peter Thatchell was involved I believe?

Miners strike? Arthur Scargill actually wrote to the SWP asking for support and the SWP gave it.

Initially the support from the SWP was political.

I addressed shop stewards committees myself and visited loads of workplaces arguing for support. It was difficult, some trade unionists were so scared of being sacked for showing said support to the miners that we had to meet them secretly in car parks.

The SWP also argued that rather than picketing pits where the strike was solid, pickets should be sent to Nottinghamshire where the support wasn't as strong. Power stations too.

Then things shifted and a decision was made to set-up support groups to collect money and food for mining communities.

I was involved with FLAG (Frickley Ladies Action Group). This was a very militant pit and they welcomed us into their communit, where we stayed on a few occasions. At the end of the strike we were given a miners lamp in appreciation.

What next? Ahh yes, the poll tax. I was involved in my local community leafleting, raising money, going to meetings, pickets at the town hall, demos and keeping the bailiffs at bay.

Irish Republicans? Oh yes, lots of support given on this. I'm from an Irish background see. A friend of mine went to the north at the time and brought me back a plastic bullet. He was presented with a shield from Republicans made in the Maze.

Last one. "The SWP hailed the Blair Victory as a 'class vote'". No they didn't. What they actually said was vote with your class, whilst pointing out that Blair had wrapped himself in the union jack and would deliver nothing to the working class.

Your attempts at smear are pitiful. With leadership like yours who would really want to join a bunch of rank amateurs like the IWCA?

 

[Joe Reilly]

The SA wanted to be too pure, the SLP was top down control freakery.

The SA was 'pure' to what exactly? The SLP needed to create the circumstances of the '70's to have any resonance - blaming Scargill is a basic unwillingness to look at the core reasons for the wider failure of socialism itself.
Respect was a serious, but a failed attempt to to garner some of the millions who marched against the war and to forge an electoral challenge to New Labour. Forge and electoral challenge to New Labour while at the same calling for a vote for Labour where the Respect was not standing? How radical is that?

As for intergenerational sex? Wasn't that something to do with defending homosexuals campaigning for lowering the age of consent who were being vilified in the right wing press? Peter Thatchell was involved I believe?
Something to do with PIE actually. The last sexual outlaws and all that.

Miners strike? Arthur Scargill actually wrote to the SWP asking for support and the SWP gave it.

Initially the support from the SWP was political.

Which is to say the SWP refused practical support on the grounds it was 'charity'. Line changed dramatically when popular support meant it could not be ignored.

I addressed shop stewards committees myself and visited loads of workplaces arguing for support. It was difficult, some trade unionists were so scared of being sacked for showing said support to the miners that we had to meet them secretly in car parks.

The SWP also argued that rather than picketing pits where the strike was solid, pickets should be sent to Nottinghamshire where the support wasn't as strong. Power stations too.

Then things shifted and a decision was made to set-up support groups to collect money and food for mining communities.

I was involved with FLAG (Frickley Ladies Action Group). This was a very militant pit and they welcomed us into their communit, where we stayed on a few occasions. At the end of the strike we were given a miners lamp in appreciation.

What next? Ahh yes, the poll tax.

The SWP initially refused to get involved arguing that people pn estates who di not work could not be organised. Only when it took off did they swamp the local commitees succesfully appropriating the ground work done by Militant among others. Tail-ending again. I was involved in my local community leafleting, raising money, going to meetings, pickets at the town hall, demos and

Irish Republicans? Oh yes, lots of support given on this.

The death of Bobby Sands was announced on the back page of Socialist Worker? Staunch.
I'm from an Irish background see. A friend of mine went to the north at the time and brought me back a plastic bullet. He was presented with a shield from Republicans made in the Maze.

Last one. "The SWP hailed the Blair Victory as a 'class vote'". No they didn't. What they actually said was vote with your class, whilst pointing out that Blair had wrapped himself in the union jack and would deliver nothing to the working class.
So while call for a vote for New Labour at all then?

Your attempts at smear are pitiful. With leadership like yours who would really want to join a bunch of rank amateurs like the IWCA?

Other 'amateurs'.

 

[audiotech]

Other 'amateurs'.

If you say so Joe.

The failed socialism of the sects is what I meant by 'pure'. There might be some agreement there. Remind me why RA walked?

No, you're wrong on the Labour vote. Vote left, vote tactical is how I saw the position.

"The last sexual outlaws"? First time I've heard that phrase? Don't have much more to add to that.

The miners strike could only be won politically and that is what was pushed for at the start. Oh and the word "charity" never came into it. Those of us there at the time were never gonna accept any old tat to pass onto the miners.

The unemployed couldn't be organised? Who said that and when? As someone who was unemployed at the time, being threatened with bailiffs, who sometime long before, had helped organise 'right to work' marches and lives on an estate, I would find that sort of comment distasteful and would have nothing to with an organisation that said it. Mind you, I had left the SWP by that time, so give me a link - if you can?

"Staunch?" Never uttered the word. The local branch of the SWP was heavily involved in campaigns around the hunger strike, working with representatives of the Irish community. Many a song was sung over a pint. Remembering Frank Stagg outside Wakefield Prison, when the NF and police with dogs turned up, was a different kettle of fish to be sure.

The SWP did not call for a vote for New labour did they, or is that party spin on your part?

 

[TremulousTetra]

RM .. it is amazing you have the front to accuse me in this way when the accusation falls far better on the swp

let me ask you .. how many people are there in your 'left'? i'll answer for you .. very few! IF, IF your movement was big yourt criticisms might make more sense .. but it is not .. it is tiny ..

there are millions of disillusioned w/c people out there who want change .. it is not ME being exclusive or ultra left or but the swp left with their insistance that last year muslims were teh issue and now this year the bnp is the issue ..

iwca hi are REAL OUTWARD looking wanting to work with ordinary people .. with far far far fewwer resources than the swp left they have gained albeit in small areas an interest from w/c people that is way beyond what you have done since the early 7ts and that at a time of high struggle ..

i am not saying in the slightest i will not work with anyone .. except those who are instituting attacks on the w/c ( labour councils etc) ..

my question was nothing to do with the size of left, or SW, it was about you putting barriers in the way of people who declared themselves to be antifascist, organising to oppose fascism. it's about you saying about the trade union movement and others who have created UAF, they are part of the problem. it's about you accusing me of being part of a middle-class conspiracy, than acknowledging i have genuine fundamental disagreements with anarchism, and many of the things you say. its about the hypocrisy of those who oppose those in the TRADITION of the Nazis, being labelled Nazis on here, whilst not opposing the use of social Fascist on here.

If a million workers said "the only reason I want to oppose the BNP is because they are racist scum", what would you say? I mean it's a very gross simplification, but that is the position of the trade union movement. what are you going to say to them, you are not anti-fascists, you are part of a middle-class conspiracy?

my secondly reason for opposition to it I just think your methodology of confronting the antifascist movement, is counterproductive. a more productive line I think would be, critical support, rather than declaring them the enemy "UAF SWP LMHR trade unions, Labour Party fuck off".

as far as removing the fundamental causes of the minority voting fascism, without removing capitalism, I don't believe you can. I don't believe you can. remove capitalism by the methods you suggest.

 

[durruti02]

Here in a nutshell is the failure at the heart of conservative anti-fascism. It knows what its against but refuses or is unable to say what it is for. Putting it is pleading with working class people, in the main, not to vote 'extremist' when it is the extremists who appear to be the only people addressing the issues that concern them. This echoes the Blair plea that 'there is plenty of choice within the mainstream'. But there isn't. All subscribe to one degree or another the same right-wing anti-working class neo-liberal formula.

By lining up behind or with them the increasingly common perception is that it is only the BNP who are for the working class and representative of them. Predictably the BNP is now seen as the 'radical alternative' while conservative 'anti-fascism' is regarded as a tool of the status quo. In the short term Hope not Hate and so on may retard the growth of the BNP but at a cost of further radicalising the hundreds of thousands who already back them and potentially the millions ignored and betrayed by all the neo-liberal parties.

spot on ..

 

[durruti02]

my question was nothing to do with the size of left, or SW, it was about you putting barriers in the way of people who declared themselves to be antifascist, organising to oppose fascism.

1) it's about you saying about the trade union movement and others who have created UAF, they are part of the problem.

2)it's about you accusing me of being part of a middle-class conspiracy, than acknowledging i have genuine fundamental disagreements with anarchism, and many of the things you say.

3) its about the hypocrisy of those who oppose those in the TRADITION of the Nazis, being labelled Nazis on here, whilst not opposing the use of social Fascist on here.

4)If a million workers said "the only reason I want to oppose the BNP is because they are racist scum", what would you say? I mean it's a very gross simplification, but that is the position of the trade union movement. what are you going to say to them, you are not anti-fascists, you are part of a middle-class conspiracy?

5)my secondly reason for opposition to it I just think your methodology of confronting the antifascist movement, is counterproductive. a more productive line I think would be, critical support, rather than declaring them the enemy "UAF SWP LMHR trade unions, Labour Party fuck off".

6)as far as removing the fundamental causes of the minority voting fascism, without removing capitalism, I don't believe you can. I don't believe you can. remove capitalism by the methods you suggest.

added numbers into your text hope that ok

1) it IS part of the problem that the likes of prentice who have screwed and disiluusioned millions of workers prioritise anti bnp this instead of support for their memebrs generally against cuts etc .. it is deeply insideous and noted by all my colleagues ' they do fuck all for us but tell us not to vote bnp' ( btw one of my colleagues a lovely soft apolitical lad did vote bnp 'they stand up for us' he said)


2)conspiracy? not i just said it is a middle class ideology .. it is .. it states fascism is an aberation from capital ..

3) sorry don't get that bit ( i get called a strasserite ( nazi) for saying i only believe the bnp can be destroyed by creating a real class based alternative .. how thick is that??? .. and you wonder why i get pissed off / angry somemtimes????? )

4) fair play but millions of workers have been saying 'pay us decent wages .. employ kids instead of immigrants .. give us social housing ..do not shut hopsitals .. give the kids something to do' etc etc deal with the real issues properly and the bnp will disappear or become more clearly w/c and anti w/c .. no it is seen as JR says as THE w/c alternative

5) fair play i appreciate this .. i have already kind of apologised in a post to CR .. the title was written after seeing there was to be a picket of fucking city hall .. i know what real politics is .. you do .. sorry RMP mate these swpers now would not know decent class politics if it smashed them in the face .. and then they wouldl shout fascist at it

6) it is working toward, the progress, the doing not the end result that is important .. you think i think we can get rid of capital next year?? no but it is working to that that undercuts the scum ,, bnp tory and new labour

cheers for now

 

[The Black Hand]

spot on ..

But Joe didn't come up with the evidence he was asked for. Evidence should never be too much to ask for a marxist.

 

[JimPage]

Back on to fortcoming by elections, BNP not fighting the Crewew Parliamenetary by election, which is slightly surprising

2 council by elections I know of
5th June Allerdale Cockermouth All Saints Ward
13 June Carlisle Upperby Ward

 

[butchersapron]

Rochester South and Horsted ward - Medway, yesterday:


Conservative 1,847
The Green Party 104
Liberal Democrat 767
Labour 819
British National Party
257

The turnout was 41 per cent.

 

[TremulousTetra]

added numbers into your text hope that ok

1) it IS part of the problem that the likes of prentice who have screwed and disiluusioned millions of workers prioritise anti bnp this instead of support for their memebrs generally against cuts etc .. it is deeply insideous and noted by all my colleagues ' they do fuck all for us but tell us not to vote bnp' ( btw one of my colleagues a lovely soft apolitical lad did vote bnp 'they stand up for us' he said)
5) fair play i appreciate this .. i have already kind of apologised in a post to CR .. the title was written after seeing there was to be a picket of fucking city hall .. i know what real politics is .. you do .. sorry RMP mate these swpers now would not know decent class politics if it smashed them in the face .. and then they wouldl shout fascist at it

but my point is you are falling into the language of the toytown revolutionaries. the left are the enemy. I do not consider anybody on the left, any group any individual the enemy, or on the side of the enemy. you have to have a more sophisticated engagemeing with them, if you seriously want to build the kind of mass movement that can seriously address those issues.. critical support. Broadley we support them, and we express our support when they do things which are correct, and then you have the right to criticise when they are wrong. We may not like those trade union leaders, but they have been collected by millions of workers.

the rise or fall of fascism is far too complicated to be pinned down to one factor, the response of the antifascist movement. I'm sorry, I'm just not going to accept this stupidity from the toytown revolutionaries. And I think you're being far too soft on workers like your colleague who voted BNP. Whilst they have every right to be aggrieved at the situation, they do not have the right to make the situation worse without being opposed.

2)conspiracy? not i just said it is a middle class ideology .. it is .. it states fascism is an aberation from capital ..

sorry, I didn't understand this.

3) sorry don't get that bit ( i get called a strasserite ( nazi) for saying i only believe the bnp can be destroyed by creating a real class based alternative .. how thick is that??? .. and you wonder why i get pissed off / angry somemtimes????? )

look, SW educated me that labelling people like Margaret Thatcher Nazi, Tony Blair, even George Bush, is completely wrong POLITICALLY.so the last thing I'm going to do to socialist like you is label you Nazi.in my opinion, from what I have read from you, you seem to have a very think local act local socialist vision of the world. that is all I said. on the other hand, it is quite common for the toytown revolutionaries on here to describe left organisations as social fascist etc, without challenge. I suppose the question is, why are some people so keen to attack the use of poetic licence when describing fascists as Nazis, but are not prepared to attack the far more damaging serious labelling of Democrats as fascist?

There is definitely a distinction between fascism and democrats. The toytown revolutionaries and yourself are refusing to accept this distinction, and you are not the first. There is a bunch of revisionist historians along with Norman Tebbit who argue there is no distinction between Stalin and Hitler. And whilst there is a unsophisticated truth to this, well to the victims there was no difference, it is a politically motivated lie.

4) fair play but millions of workers have been saying 'pay us decent wages .. employ kids instead of immigrants .. give us social housing ..do not shut hopsitals .. give the kids something to do' etc etc deal with the real issues properly and the bnp will disappear or become more clearly w/c and anti w/c .. no it is seen as JR says as THE w/c alternative

6) it is working toward, the progress, the doing not the end result that is important .. you think i think we can get rid of capital next year?? no but it is working to that that undercuts the scum ,, bnp tory and new labour

cheers for now

for 100 years without a significant section of the working class voting for the Tory party, the Tory party would have never been in government. why do Socialists and revolutionaries have to accept Conservative and reactionary ideas just because minority, or even a majority, of the working class and accept them? I am not going to accept "wheelchair users ares parasites", "should shoot drug dealers", "should bring back hanging", "should give all the black people jobs, building ships. put them in the ships, and then sink the fuckers in the Channel", just because working-class members of my family have said those things. majority of my socialist life I've had to argue with working-class people about the IRA. more importantly, I've never written them off either. so why are you writing off me, trade unionists, members of the Labour Party etc?

more importantly, i believe you've got the whole process of trying address those issues on the minimum wage half right and half wrong. you are absolutely right that we do have to address those issues in the here and now. it is addressing issues in the here and now we can build the kind of mass movement that can win gains in the here and now. but I don't believe you can produce a "revolution of hope" by addressing the reactionary ideas, and the most reactionary members of the working class.a working class person who has voted Tory all that life is not going to be won to revolution, by calling for immigration controls. it is just going to convince him that even the left think immigrants are the problem, not capitalism.

 

[audiotech]

Strange goings on in Wales as three BNP town councillors resign?

Colwyn Bay town councillors Paul Harley, Sue Harley and John Oddy formally resigned as BNP councillors yesterday at their very first council meeting, where all three were represented by Oddy who stated in a post on the icWales forum;

'I attended the meeting to inform the Council that yesterday afternoon all three Councillors had resigned from the BNP and that we were prepared to remain on the Council as Independents, if the Council required it all three of us were prepared to also resign from the Council and allow our seats to be put forward to a by-election that we would not contest.'

When asked why they'd left the BNP, he responded thus;

'My reason for leaving the BNP was my own personal choice, the other two Councillors choose to leave with me. I have always been regarded as a moderate within the party and, as I’ve always maintained, I have never been a racist...'
http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/2008/05/three-bnp-councillors-resign-after-less.html

Oddy no racist?

According to Pat Pattison, who resigned from the party after discovering its 'intolerable' racism, Oddy verbally attacked him for having the temerity to help an Asian family as part of his own duties as a town councillor, stating that the party wasn't happy with him because he'd been 'helping fucking Pakis' and that 'they're Muslim scum anyway'.

 

[durruti02]

but my point is you are falling into the language of the toytown revolutionaries. the left are the enemy. I do not consider anybody on the left, any group any individual the enemy, or on the side of the enemy. you have to have a more sophisticated engagemeing with them, if you seriously want to build the kind of mass movement that can seriously address those issues.. critical support. Broadley we support them, and we express our support when they do things which are correct, and then you have the right to criticise when they are wrong. We may not like those trade union leaders, but they have been collected by millions of workers.

the rise or fall of fascism is far too complicated to be pinned down to one factor, the response of the antifascist movement. I'm sorry, I'm just not going to accept this stupidity from the toytown revolutionaries. And I think you're being far too soft on workers like your colleague who voted BNP. Whilst they have every right to be aggrieved at the situation, they do not have the right to make the situation worse without being opposed.

sorry, I didn't understand this.
look, SW educated me that labelling people like Margaret Thatcher Nazi, Tony Blair, even George Bush, is completely wrong POLITICALLY.so the last thing I'm going to do to socialist like you is label you Nazi.in my opinion, from what I have read from you, you seem to have a very think local act local socialist vision of the world. that is all I said. on the other hand, it is quite common for the toytown revolutionaries on here to describe left organisations as social fascist etc, without challenge. I suppose the question is, why are some people so keen to attack the use of poetic licence when describing fascists as Nazis, but are not prepared to attack the far more damaging serious labelling of Democrats as fascist?

There is definitely a distinction between fascism and democrats. The toytown revolutionaries and yourself are refusing to accept this distinction, and you are not the first. There is a bunch of revisionist historians along with Norman Tebbit who argue there is no distinction between Stalin and Hitler. And whilst there is a unsophisticated truth to this, well to the victims there was no difference, it is a politically motivated lie.
for 100 years without a significant section of the working class voting for the Tory party, the Tory party would have never been in government. why do Socialists and revolutionaries have to accept Conservative and reactionary ideas just because minority, or even a majority, of the working class and accept them? I am not going to accept "wheelchair users ares parasites", "should shoot drug dealers", "should bring back hanging", "should give all the black people jobs, building ships. put them in the ships, and then sink the fuckers in the Channel", just because working-class members of my family have said those things. majority of my socialist life I've had to argue with working-class people about the IRA. more importantly, I've never written them off either. so why are you writing off me, trade unionists, members of the Labour Party etc?

more importantly, i believe you've got the whole process of trying address those issues on the minimum wage half right and half wrong. you are absolutely right that we do have to address those issues in the here and now. it is addressing issues in the here and now we can build the kind of mass movement that can win gains in the here and now. but I don't believe you can produce a "revolution of hope" by addressing the reactionary ideas, and the most reactionary members of the working class.a working class person who has voted Tory all that life is not going to be won to revolution, by calling for immigration controls. it is just going to convince him that even the left think immigrants are the problem, not capitalism.

mate i do not call for immigration controls FFS how many times do i have to say this??? and what on earth are you on about about accepting reactionary ideas??? i call for simple grass roots community politics not shooting all drug dealers!! it is no wonder that people reject the so called left when you distort simple grass roots socialism like i support so much ..

re my colleague? what should i tell him .. he should have voted ken??? LOL me and another ex nf colleague told him simply that they lie when the say they support british people that all politicians lie .. but you probably disagree with that .. this is a kid who all his mates were black but now he can see no other way to go ..

toy town revolutionaries??? me?? LOL so working locally working with with TAs being a shop steward trying to build fronm the base concretely is a toy town revolution???? .. while running around with yellow lollipops shouting bnp out put out is not??? you ARE joking me right????

p.s. re enemies .. i have heard enough of the left describing each other as enemies over the years .. for me an enemy is someone who holds back people having control over their lives .. politicians bureucrats managers and often the trot left who disempower not empower

 

[TremulousTetra]

mate i do not call for immigration controls FFS how many times do i have to say this???

sorry, controlling immigration by only allowing local people to have local jobs, yes? which will reduce the level of immigration yes? I don't agree that is a solution.

and what on earth are you on about about accepting reactionary ideas??? i call for simple grass roots community politics not shooting all drug dealers!! it is no wonder that people reject the so called left when you distort simple grass roots socialism like i support so much ..

that isn't what I meant to say. My friends and family, working class people, have reactionary ideas, ALONG WITH AND I HASTEN TO ADD SOME VERY PROGRESSIVE IDEAS. I don't appeal to them by agreeing with what I personally veiw as a reactionary opinions, immigrants are part of the problem, I appeal to them on the basis of their Progressive views, let's unite black and white and save the a local hospital. And as an antifascist, anti-sexist, and to lots of things, I do challenge the ideas in my friends and families head that I disagree with.

You and butch seem to be saying we shouldn't, BUT IF the fascists are a working class concern why do you refuse to address that concern?

re my colleague? what should i tell him .. he should have voted ken??? LOL me and another ex nf colleague told him simply that they lie when the say they support british people that all politicians lie .. but you probably disagree with that .. this is a kid who all his mates were black but now he can see no other way to go ..

like the antifascistts,Fair enough. did you also say,you don't have two vote for any of them,just refuse to vote, it's only encourages all of the bastard politician's? its allright to protest in over hunger, but not by voting for plague.

anyway, don't give up on him comerade, try and win him to your methods.

toy town revolutionaries??? me?? LOL so working locally working with with TAs being a shop steward trying to build fronm the base concretely is a toy town revolution???? .. while running around with yellow lollipops shouting bnp out put out is not??? you ARE joking me right????

go back and read, I did actually distinguish between you and the toy town revolutionaries.

p.s. re enemies .. i have heard enough of the left describing each other as enemies over the years .. for me an enemy is someone who holds back people having control over their lives .. politicians bureucrats managers and often the trot left who disempower not empower

well unfortunately comerade, that is ONE of the qualities in MY definition of a "toy town revolutionaries". Writing off a COMRADE you have been unable to win to your analysis, as "an enemy". Normally it would more applied to people like J*E, maybe b******s, more intent on one line putdowns of their "enemies", than a reasonable debate.