Griffin and BNP strategy

[TremulousTetra]

No they're not - they have the exact opposite of the 30s style state worship and concentrate on de-centralisation, federalism and varieties of local democracy and so on, a modernised pan european neo-fascism with populist overtones but with very little of old style 'totalitarianism'.

it is not so long ago a Conservative pointed out to me a discussion paper on economics on the bnp website. he queried me because he believed, wrongly, I would have a lot in common with this article, because it was proposing the nationalisation of all industry/business with more than, I forget the precise figure, I think it was more than 80 workers. Was centralisation the only current in 1930's fascism? I seem to remember there were elements even in Nazi party who had a different attitude to Hitler (night of the long knives). and how much was Hitler himself a 'prisoner' of capitalism? So whilst I agree with you that many elements have evolved, hence the neofascism neo-Nazi label, there are continuities too. one of those elements is, that fascist philosophy is a complete basketcase, even within the same fascist party, you can have completely contradictory views, HENCE nationalisation and decentralisation.

But that's neither here nor there - we're talking about the efficacy as a tactic of calling them facists or nazis given that it doesn't work, and related tactics of 'exposing them' and so on.

but it is a strawman, I don't know anybody who believes on its own calling them facists or nazis is the final solution.

just out of interest, why has British fascism took so long to catch up with its European counterparts?

 

[The Black Hand]

how can I talk to people outside my own circles, I can only talk to people I come across and know. if you mean socialists etc, I meet and talk to them very rarely. it is mostly ordinary joe people I speak to. most of them accept, even some who vote for the BNP, that the BNP are fascist, so I cant understand why you politicals don't believe that the bnp is fascist.

I think a lot of them still are - those who have 'coverted' aren't genuine either.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Are you trying to miss the point on purpose? It doesn't matter if the term is correct or not if no one takes blind bit of notice of you calling them it. No ones saying that the term can't or shouldn't be used in an analytical sense (or at least an argument made for its use).

why do they lie about it, if it doesn't hurt them politically?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Are you trying to miss the point on purpose? It doesn't matter if the term is correct or not if no one takes blind bit of notice of you calling them it.

aren't they? do you actually speak to people who vote for the BNP, i do. 99% of them fervently denied the BNP are a fascist, and had said to me if they believe they were they would not vote for them. many have said they know the BNP is fascist, but only vote for them because there is no chance of them getting power and it is a good way to spank the mainstream politicians.

No ones saying that the term can't or shouldn't be used in an analytical sense (or at least an argument made for its use).

that is exactly how I read their comments. I'm glad you have enlightened me.

 

[audiotech]

Are you trying to miss the point on purpose? It doesn't matter if the term is correct or not if no one takes blind bit of notice of you calling them it. No ones saying that the term can't or shouldn't be used in an analytical sense (or at least an argument made for its use).

I heard a few people being interviewed about their voting intentions just before the recent elections. An eldely woman, thinking of voting BNP, stated that she was considering voting BNP because she thought that she was a minority in her own country. Now, it would be sensible to think this elderly woman was around when the war against fascism was at it's height no? Then why not make clear the BNP's links to fascism? She may think twice about voting for them afterall.

Another couple, despite constant publicity about the BNP, seemed to be totally unaware of who they were and what they were about. The job of any serious anti-fascists first and foremost surely is to make it very clear to these sort of voters who and what the BNP are really about.

 

[Joe Reilly]

The job of any serious anti-fascists first and foremost surely is to make it very clear to these sort of voters who and what the BNP are really about.

And after that what? Urge them to vote Labour, Lib Dem, Tory and UKIP - the 'non-nazi' right wing?

 

[Bakunin]

And after that what? Urge them to vote Labour, Lib Dem, Tory and UKIP - the 'non-nazi' right wing?

Which has of course been tried and has failed to stop their growth.

I don't doubt that there are many in the BNP with fascist sympathies, either overt or secret, but the fact remains that many people vote BNP as a protest vote to express their discontent and others may actually be buying into the BNP's pseudo-respectable image.

All it takes, under the present system, is enough protest votes and enough actual supporters voting for them to keep them making gains and building their share of the vote. If they can keep on doing that, and doing so successfully, then eventually they will have real power.

And I don't buy into this idea that we're supposed to be doing weel because their vote hasn't increased, either. All that means to me is that they seem, in a number of areas anyway, to be holding onto the vote they already have.

 

[audiotech]

And after that what? Urge them to vote Labour, Lib Dem, Tory and UKIP - the 'non-nazi' right wing?

Personally, I wouldn't urge them to vote for any other parties. My role is, as I said, to urge them not to vote BNP.

I took a tactical decision myself and voted to keep the tories out and to limit the impact of the BNP.

Sadly, no other choice was available.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Which has of course been tried and has failed to stop their growth.

I don't doubt that there are many in the BNP with fascist sympathies, either overt or secret, but the fact remains that many people vote BNP as a protest vote to express their discontent and others may actually be buying into the BNP's pseudo-respectable image.

All it takes, under the present system, is enough protest votes and enough actual supporters voting for them to keep them making gains and building their share of the vote. If they can keep on doing that, and doing so successfully, then eventually they will have real power.

And I don't buy into this idea that we're supposed to be doing weel because their vote hasn't increased, either. All that means to me is that they seem, in a number of areas anyway, to be holding onto the vote they already have.

but this debate was had in sw after anl, and it was acknowledged that the anl strategy was not enough. so you and Joe are providing no great revelation.

 

[Bakunin]

but this debate was had in sw after anl, and it was acknowledged that the anl strategy was not enough. so you and Joe are providing no great revelation.

But I don't see UAF as doing much different from ANL, if anything, that's part of the problem.

 

[TremulousTetra]

But I don't see UAF as doing much different from ANL, if anything, that's part of the problem.

well when the ANL existed, there was no respect, building an alternative may have failed but it has been tried.

 

[Bakunin]

well when the ANL existed, there was no respect, building an alternative may have failed but it has been tried.

Tried and failed.

Personally, I'm not interested in failures, noble or otherwise. I'm interested in actually stopping the rise of fascism, not making a balls of the job and then saying 'Oh well, at least we gave it a go.'

 

[kidtripod]

Is it relevant to attempt label the BNP fascist anyway? It clearly achieves absolutely nothing one way or the other.

Focus on repulsive elements of their policy (and their proposed stuff contains enough of it) rather than talking about your suspicions, because that only plays into their own game and gives them more propaganda about "being told what to think yada yada yada".

Whilst doing that do positive things to demonstrate the good aspects of life outside of a fascist society and in the process attempt to reduce the propaganda tools being gifted to them by incompetent government.

These arguments you are having are circular, irrelevant, and concerned with detail that no one really cares about. It's a waste of time and energy.

This may sound insane, but how about targeting the issues they're using to grow a power base in the very localities that they're successful? For example, if there is a housing or crime problem in the area where they're elected and they're using this for propaganda purposes (ie blaming it on immigration), how about the left try to steal their thunder by actually putting together something which combats these very problems (and/or demonstrate the problems aren't real), and taking away their raison d'etre in the view of most of their voters?

 

[durruti02]

I'm not being pedantic, I'm trying to honestly analyse the situation. You see what I seem to read in the words of yourself and people like Butch, is that the change in the fortunes of the BNP is down to the BNP. People go on about them doing the local work etc and this is the root of their success. In my area this patiently isn't true, and not only that the people on the left who have been doing such work have not been as successful as the fascist. So I'm arguing local work etc is not the cause of the BNP limited success. Have I misread you and butch, do you agree with that?

Euro fascism. Undoubtably this is a change in tactics that is slightly contributing to their limited success SO FAR. I am not being pedantic when I say their limited success is due to them moving down a level, not moving up. They've had to seriously distance themselves, publicly, from their own history, traditions, to make any headway. I can't remember where, but some time back Griffin argued fascism was unelectable in Britain. But far more important than their change in tactics in my opinion, is the change in the objective circumstances. The mainstream politicians, media, "the war on terror" is acting as a recruiting sergeant for the BNP, not the BNP. The BNP have just stop doing the things that used to expose them as fascists.

PS. yes thanks, I am well. hope you and yours are.

hi rmp .. cheers .. no i did not think you werre being pedantic .. but i think that what you have observed shows they have broken thru that first phase of making out they were and occasionally being local activists.

but yes absolutely the change in the political situation IS also key .. but it SHOULD herald a move to the left not the right!!! which is where thei r change in tactics comes in

which brings us back i think to a fundamental reappraisal of what we need .. anti fascism is NOT it

 

[durruti02]

Is it relevant to attempt label the BNP fascist anyway? It clearly achieves absolutely nothing one way or the other.

Focus on repulsive elements of their policy (and their proposed stuff contains enough of it) rather than talking about your suspicions, because that only plays into their own game and gives them more propaganda about "being told what to think yada yada yada".

Whilst doing that do positive things to demonstrate the good aspects of life outside of a fascist society and in the process attempt to reduce the propaganda tools being gifted to them by incompetent government.

These arguments you are having are circular, irrelevant, and concerned with detail that no one really cares about. It's a waste of time and energy.

This may sound insane, but how about targeting the issues they're using to grow a power base in the very localities that they're successful? For example, if there is a housing or crime problem in the area where they're elected and they're using this for propaganda purposes (ie blaming it on immigration), how about the left try to steal their thunder by actually putting together something which combats these very problems (and/or demonstrate the problems aren't real), and taking away their raison d'etre in the view of most of their voters?

very good post .. but you having a laugh in the last para right?? the swp actually get involved with local politics???

 

[Bakunin]

very good post .. but you having a laugh in the last para right?? the swp actually get involved with local politics???

Not to play down the problems that exist around the world for a moment, but if the SWP CC devoted even half the energy to domestic problems and strategies that they devote to foreign ones then they might have a lot more support.

Somehow, I don't think twinning Nablus with Preston or wherever it was counts for too much on the doorstep when people have problems that need solving in their own community.

 

[durruti02]

UAF - a bit l8;

"Racists Don’t Represent London -
Protest Against BNP Fascist on London Assembly

Protest Against BNP fascist Richard Barnbrook’s presence on the London Assembly.

6pm, Tuesday 6th May 2008
City Hall (the GLA building), Queens Walk, London SE1
(nr Tower Bridge - see http://www. london. gov. uk/gla/locationmap. jsp)
Called by Love Music Hate Racism. Bring banners, whistles, horns, music - make some noise against racism and fascism, no Nazis on the GLA"

seriously i want to have a go at the stupid fuckers .. this swp recruiting bullshit stunt will just make things worse .. if someone already thinks you are a stupid middle class wanker do you think all of a sudden they are going to start listenning to you when you act like an even more dopey middle class wanker??

 

[JTG]

very good post .. but you having a laugh in the last para right?? the swp actually get involved with local politics???

 

[kidtripod]

Somehow, I don't think twinning Nablus with Preston or wherever it was counts for too much on the doorstep when people have problems that need solving in their own community.

Precisely. In fact it probably contributes more to the idea that the SWP care more about what is elsewhere than local issues.

 

[urbanrevolt]

seriously i want to have a go at the stupid fuckers .. this swp recruiting bullshit stunt will just make things worse .. if someone already thinks you are a stupid middle class wanker do you think all of a sudden they are going to start listenning to you when you act like an even more dopey middle class wanker??

Yeah right get out of here it's middle class to want to smash the fascist off the street?

May be you've never been targeted by fascists but believe me if you actually knew any working class people who'd had bricks and petrol bombs thrown through their doors you wouldn't be saying it's middle class to argue for militant organised self-defence

 

[kidtripod]

At the risk of gross naivety, who are the fascists doing that to, and why? (I've genuinely no idea).

 

[durruti02]

Yeah right fuck off it's middle class to want to smash the fascaist off the street?

May be you've never been targeted by fascists but believe me if you actually knew any working class people who'd had bricks and petrol bombs thrown through their doors you wouldn't be saying it's middle class to argue for militant organised self-defence

ur my friend .. i have been involved with anti fascism since the mid late 7ts .. i was in anl and afa .. i have been on redwatch .. so please do not patronise me .. the issue is that anti fascism is in the interests of the middle classes .. it distracts from the causes of fascism .. working class rule is in the interests of the w/c

p.s. i am entirely in favour of militant organised self defence .. but why only against fascists???? if we had been doing militant organised self defence against loan sharks, lack of repairs, cuts to services, against police haraasment, in favour of youth clubs etc etc etc we would not be where we are .. anti fascism is a disaster for the w/c .. it is a middle class dead end

 

[urbanrevolt]

I knew about twenty people this happened to in Oldham in 2000-2001.

May be the BNP have changed? Only in their rhetoric. I certainly wouldn't want BNP round where I live threatening my partner and my friends and their kids because they;re the wrong colour.

 

[durruti02]

I knew about twenty people this happened to in Oldham in 2000-2001.

May be the BNP have changed? Only in their rhetoric. I certainly wouldn't want BNP round where I live threatening my partner and my friends and their kids because they;re the wrong colour.

so the bnp have created all the problems in lancs??? give over .. they are merely the parasites feasting on the shit capital has created .. DO NOT LET THE SCUM SIDETRACK US.. it is playing exactly into the hands of the state

 

[urbanrevolt]

btw durruti I shldn't have sworn at you- forgive that

i do respect your opinions and your history
working class rule is certainly in our interests and has to proceed from elementary self-defence.

including against the state and bosses of course and the rest you meantion but ALSO the fascists who are tools of the bosses and often their first line to attack us

Unions such as the CWU, Unison, RMT should issue statements supporting all members who refuse to serve or work in vicinity of fascists using health and safety arguments as first line

 

[urbanrevolt]

no they are TOOLs of capital

 

[kidtripod]

so the bnp have created all the problems in lancs??? give over .. they are merely the parasites feasting on the shit capital has created .. DO NOT LET THE SCUM SIDETRACK US.. it is playing exactly into the hands of the state

This sums up my view on it as well.

Clearly some of you have much more direct experience of it than I do, but the leading problem with much anti-fascism is it starts to look a lot like what it's supposed to be opposing, or at least demonstrate the qualities that to the majority of people are repulsive.

My big concern would be using violence against fascists, because it moves the moral high ground in their favour. There is a very fine line between self defence and offense, and crossing it will tarnish the public perception, leading to marginalisation of the cause.

Certainly invest in a self defence capability, but if you're sole function is to be anti-fascist and defend yourself from physical attacks that may or may not ever come you've lost at the first move.

The other thing to be wary of is that bringing them up all the time actually raises their profile. I might go as far as to say that actually going to protest directly against them is counter productive, partly because of the greater attention, and also that if the crowd happens to be formed of a certain sort then it reinforces their agenda.

Ironically the anti-fascist movement needs to define itself in terms of something beyond it's opponent to stand a chance of long term success.

 

[durruti02]

This sums up my view on it as well.

Clearly some of you have much more direct experience of it than I do, but the leading problem with much anti-fascism is it starts to look a lot like what it's supposed to be opposing, or at least demonstrate the qualities that to the majority of people are repulsive.

My big concern would be using violence against fascists, because it moves the moral high ground in their favour. There is a very fine line between self defence and offense, and crossing it will tarnish the public perception, leading to marginalisation of the cause.

Certainly invest in a self defence capability, but if you're sole function is to be anti-fascist and defend yourself from physical attacks that may or may not ever come you've lost at the first move.

The other thing to be wary of is that bringing them up all the time actually raises their profile. I might go as far as to say that actually going to protest directly against them is counter productive, partly because of the greater attention, and also that if the crowd happens to be formed of a certain sort then it reinforces their agenda.

Ironically the anti-fascist movement needs to define itself in terms of something beyond it's opponent to stand a chance of long term success.

good post

 

[durruti02]

btw durruti I shldn't have sworn at you- forgive that

i do respect your opinions and your history
working class rule is certainly in our interests and has to proceed from elementary self-defence.

including against the state and bosses of course and the rest you meantion but ALSO the fascists who are tools of the bosses and often their first line to attack us

Unions such as the CWU, Unison, RMT should issue statements supporting all members who refuse to serve or work in vicinity of fascists using health and safety arguments as first line

didn't even notice! was ranting too much! no apology neccessary .. i am very much in favour of beating the fascists off the streets .. but i just think their strategy change ( hence this thread) is about us responding differrently .. hey i asked if you were down at the lmhr fest from your red socked comrade .. but you were not so we are still to meet! take care! bed time!

 

[JTG]

Ironically the anti-fascist movement needs to define itself in terms of something beyond it's opponent to stand a chance of long term success.

Spot on.

If the BNP are seen by some as an alternative to something shit then we need another alternative.