Griffin and BNP strategy

[durruti02]

You keep sending out this strawman, durutti. It's boring.

strawman?? no

.. this is the most common accusation that people come up with about housing .. this is the sort of thing the BNP are feeding off .. it is VERY important we are clear

so, nino as an ex housing officer, i thought you would be able to answer it ... why do you not?


"strawman - a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted
or ... a specious argument - an argument that appears good at first view but is really fallacious" from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/strawman

so if it is easily refuted .. refute it .. if it is fallacious .. show it to be so ..

3908

 

[audiotech]

You really are an example to us all. No wonder nobody wants to go to your union meetings.

Not comedy night again.

 

[durruti02]

'flotsam and jetsam'? We are talking about people here.

You can play the numbers game if you want, but I'm more a humanitarian.

As for care homes? Can you quote the relevant point because I had a quick look at the link you posted and it appeared to be about asylum and immigration and not care homes.

Anyway, nationally the vast majority of older people in said care homes are white, which would be the case seeing as the vast majority of the population are, err just that.

people?? damn right .. and you seem to think it is OK that people are forced to migrate ..

you ask for references .. i give .. you ignore .. whatever ..

care homes?? .. its only just down the thread ..

p.s. your last para makes no sense ..

 

[audiotech]

people?? damn right .. and you seem to think it is OK that people are forced to migrate ..

you ask for references .. i give .. you ignore .. whatever ..

care homes?? .. its only just down the thread ..

p.s. your last para makes no sense ..

Sure, the mate who is now in Australia married to his girlfriend was forced to do it, as were the 800,000 brits now living in Spain were.

Try reading the para again, you never know it may click into place.

 

[durruti02]

Sure, the mate who is now in Australia married to his girlfriend was forced to do it, as were the 800,000 brits now living in Spain were.

Try reading the para again, you never know it may click into place.

and of course those migrants are not pushed!! .. and if you notice i argue most people currently are NOT forced put pulled .. i think you missed the point that i was responding to you about that historically much migration was push .. famine war etc

i am not sure what the argument was about care homes .. all i said was where i live many residents are afrocarib as and it reflects the area ..

tbh this is all not really relevent to the thread ..

( edited as missed out 'course' in 'of course')

 

[nino_savatte]

strawman?? no

.. this is the most common accusation that people come up with about housing .. this is the sort of thing the BNP are feeding off .. it is VERY important we are clear

so, nino as an ex housing officer, i thought you would be able to answer it ... why do you not?


"strawman - a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted
or ... a specious argument - an argument that appears good at first view but is really fallacious" from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/strawman

so if it is easily refuted .. refute it .. if it is fallacious .. show it to be so ..

3908

You're trading in myths again. So, rather than challenge the myths and lies of the BNP, you are quite happy to accept these myths because they have been disseminated by the BNP and members of your 'community' believe them.

Here you say that you accept what I say in one breath and then in the next, you try to make me out to be a liar.

if you mean you repeated again that no priority is given to immigrants than i accept that .. what you did not answer is my specific instance .. could you do that now as it is the most common bnp type accusation and we need to be clear on it?

You want me to comment on an isolated case that you have mentioned? Wtf? Next, you'll be asking me to do fortune telling....is my name Petulengro?

You're very slippery and it's no wonder most people give up on you.

 

[durruti02]

You're trading in myths again. So, rather than challenge the myths and lies of the BNP, you are quite happy to accept these myths because they have been disseminated by the BNP and members of your 'community' believe them.

Here you say that you accept what I say in one breath and then in the next, you try to make me out to be a liar.

You want me to comment on an isolated case that you have mentioned? Wtf? Next, you'll be asking me to do fortune telling....is my name Petulengro?

You're very slippery and it's no wonder most people give up on you.

so go on .. answer the question then .. its not really fortune telling is it!! and as you said you were a housing officer so i thought you might be able to answer it!!

imagine i am a victim of the bnps propaganda .. refute their evil lies .. be an anti facist superhero!!

so again the scenario is this ..

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "

true or false true or false true or false??

(p.s. the question is NOT will that immigrant family get housed for being immigrants .. we all know this is NOT The case)

p.s. isolated case!!!??? you bonkers!!!

 

[audiotech]

Over 300 local people demonstrated in Corsham, Wiltshire, against a BNP member claiming a seat on the town council. BNP councillor Michael Simpkins took the ward of Rudloe uncontested in the May council elections.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=12085

 

[audiotech]

so again the scenario is this ..

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "

true or false true or false true or false??

What if the property on offer is a one bedroomed flat, or house?

 

[JimPage]

BNP Polled 25% yesterday in Manchester Charleston, 29.3% in Rochford Hockley and 18.7% in Havering St Andrews

The fight against fascism continues.....

 

[durruti02]

What if the property on offer is a one bedroomed flat, or house?

good question! (which i was replying too as the boards went down yesterday!)

i think it helps in looking at the scenario i put ( to nino ..hes the housing officer! and still waiting for his response ) ..

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "

it would be unlikely that a homeless family would get housed in a one bedroom .. i suspect that one bedrooms have been used a lot for refugees by NASS ..

it is more likely that an immigrant family in need will get a family house .. and that the 'issue' with this would then be that a local family who have outgrown their home can not get upgraded ..

so 2 scenarios for advice on!

 

[durruti02]

BNP Polled 25% yesterday in Manchester Charleston, 29.3% in Rochford Hockley and 18.7% in Havering St Andrews

The fight against fascism continues.....

... clearly not very well!


or are these results lower than before?? seem pretty high to me

 

[JimPage]

... clearly not very well!


or are these results lower than before?? seem pretty high to me

all first time votes in the wards concerned- and best fascist result,ever, in Manchester. The havering result would put BNP on course for a GLA seat , if they can get their act together in the parts of london they are not organised in.

Third way also polled 6% in Havering - so a 25% fash vote in total

 

[nino_savatte]

so go on .. answer the question then .. its not really fortune telling is it!! and as you said you were a housing officer so i thought you might be able to answer it!!

imagine i am a victim of the bnps propaganda .. refute their evil lies .. be an anti facist superhero!!

so again the scenario is this ..

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "

true or false true or false true or false??

(p.s. the question is NOT will that immigrant family get housed for being immigrants .. we all know this is NOT The case)

p.s. isolated case!!!??? you bonkers!!!

I have told you that immigrants are not given priority over others with regards to social housing. You keep suggesting, in a roundabout sort of way, that this is not the case and offer up red herrings, in the hope that you might trip me up. But there is little point in that strategy: I have presented the facts, it's up to you to accept myths over them, as you have here:

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children ..

It's up to the individuals to apply for social housing. If folk sit around and moan about immigrants and housing but do not put themselves on the list, they only have themselves to blame.

Oh and refugees (I refuse to use the media-created term "asylum seeker") are not entitled to benefits.

imagine i am a victim of the bnps propaganda .. refute their evil lies .. be an anti facist superhero!!

Stop talking rot.

 

[treelover]

What part of manchester, usually such groups do well on the fringes of a city, working class area, tory club, orange club, etc,

and the result in Havering is astonishing, even 6% for an obscure right wing ideology

The no borders lot and the lollipop wavers will have to come up with something much more sophisticated now: 69% of the uk, which clealry must include many BEM's (in a recent poll) now see mass immigration as problematic,

 

[tbaldwin]

What part of manchester, usually such groups do well on the fringes of a city, working class area, tory club, orange club, etc,

and the result in Havering is astonishing, even 6% for an obscure right wing ideology

The no borders lot and the lollipop wavers will have to come up with something much more sophisticated now: 69% of the uk, which clealry must include many BEM's (in a recent poll) now see mass immigration as problematic,

The thing that makes me laugh is when people like nino come out with great lines like "do you know any black people" do they seriously imagine that most Black people in this country agree with their narrow minded views on the issue of immigration?

 

[TremulousTetra]

What part of manchester, usually such groups do well on the fringes of a city, working class area, tory club, orange club, etc,

and the result in Havering is astonishing, even 6% for an obscure right wing ideology

The no borders lot and the lollipop wavers will have to come up with something much more sophisticated now: 69% of the uk, which clealry must include many BEM's (in a recent poll) now see mass immigration as problematic,

in some respects I think you're right. There is a massive problem dealing with the hostility there is to immigration. And I honestly cannot see any way to deal with it. Trying to stop immigration is be king kanute. You would have more chance of stopping the tide, then stopping immigration. Migration is the modern phenomena. The world has become a global village. Travel is so cheap, even the poor can afford it. And it is happening in every direction. Recently went to Cyprus, the Greek part, with a population of around 750,000. 62,000 of them are English. Mostly wealthy English, what we would call lower-middle-class, who are pricing locals out of homes. Horses for courses. Every form of migration presents problems and opportunities, in my humble opinion.

 

[The Black Hand]

Over 300 local people demonstrated in Corsham, Wiltshire, against a BNP member claiming a seat on the town council. BNP councillor Michael Simpkins took the ward of Rudloe uncontested in the May council elections.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=12085

That's good news - he won't keep his seat next time and has blown it in the long term in that area...

 

[The Black Hand]

good question! (which i was replying too as the boards went down yesterday!)

i think it helps in looking at the scenario i put ( to nino ..hes the housing officer! and still waiting for his response ) ..

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "

it would be unlikely that a homeless family would get housed in a one bedroom .. i suspect that one bedrooms have been used a lot for refugees by NASS ..

it is more likely that an immigrant family in need will get a family house .. and that the 'issue' with this would then be that a local family who have outgrown their home can not get upgraded ..

so 2 scenarios for advice on!

The migrants would get priority because they are in greater need with children - this is not an issue, this is what exists and has existed like this for some considerable time. Apologies, but I must say it looks like a racist position not to support this equal opportunity of access according to need principle regardless of the politics you have (or have had). I appreciate this is a managerialist Labour position, but this is the working reality of government.

I think I am getting more radical in my old age - I think it (unequal opportunity/'pro' migrant scare stories) is being spread within working class communities by those who are at best niave regarding the propaganda information and the presentation of this sort of reactionary politics. For that it what it is. Arguing over access to housing and better managerial access for 'locals' (a category that I have many problems with) gets out of the political into arguements based on false constructions, such as 'migrants', 'immigrants', 'race' (all ideas with no basis). I prefer to argue over housing policy/building/ etc as that is the only realistic long term solution.

In Hackney Migrants and locals already are in council housing which is vastly over subscribed in terms of population, with no hope of relocation within Hackney eg. 2 parents 4 kids in 2 bed council flat, (4 kids in 1 bedroom).

 

[The Black Hand]

in some respects I think you're right. There is a massive problem dealing with the hostility there is to immigration. And I honestly cannot see any way to deal with it. Trying to stop immigration is be king kanute. You would have more chance of stopping the tide, then stopping immigration. Migration is the modern phenomena. The world has become a global village. Travel is so cheap, even the poor can afford it. And it is happening in every direction. Recently went to Cyprus, the Greek part, with a population of around 750,000. 62,000 of them are English. Mostly wealthy English, what we would call lower-middle-class, who are pricing locals out of homes. Horses for courses. Every form of migration presents problems and opportunities, in my humble opinion.

True - Brits in Spain have been forcing house prices up for some time - the housing prices in Spain are due a crash too - so if you want to make some money that might be an area to look

To add; that here's another theory for you which I have not tested anywhere, which could be worth researching, and that is what would be the petit bourgeois class composition of a UK fascist cadre have already left Britain. They are now living abroad, throughout Europe, but mostly in Spain. These are the petit bourgeois who have some money and decided to look after themselves. Here, the historical lack of politicisation within the general public in Britain has worked in 'our' favour, by removing the social class who could be a danger and dispersing them throughout Europe so what power they could have had, has dissapated.

 

[nino_savatte]

The thing that makes me laugh is when people like nino come out with great lines like "do you know any black people" do they seriously imagine that most Black people in this country agree with their narrow minded views on the issue of immigration?

Oh please, give it a rest. This poll that treelover alludes too, is all too typical of polls conducted on this or on any other subject. There is hostility to immigrants; newcomers, if you prefer; there always has been. There's nothing new about that. There is nothing new about the widespread myths that are associated with the fear of newcomers either. The poll tells me nothing new and neither do you.

You're pissing in the wind...again.

 

[treelover]

Attica, I think you may be onto something there, a bit like the Pied Noirs in Algeria, but in reverse, but we are still an incredibly conservative country , with a small C though.

 

[durruti02]

I have told you that immigrants are not given priority over others with regards to social housing. You keep suggesting, in a roundabout sort of way, that this is not the case and offer up red herrings, in the hope that you might trip me up.

nino .. you are being very very very slippery

.. NO ONE is suggesting AT ALL that migrants get housing on the basis of being migrants AS YOU CONTINUAL SUGGEST

what is being asked of you is about this scenario

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "

simply try to answer this ..

MC, indirectly, has introduced another scenario .. who gets housed on a family house .. a homeless family or a local family who needs more rooms?

 

[durruti02]

What part of manchester, usually such groups do well on the fringes of a city, working class area, tory club, orange club, etc,

and the result in Havering is astonishing, even 6% for an obscure right wing ideology

The no borders lot and the lollipop wavers will have to come up with something much more sophisticated now: 69% of the uk, which clealry must include many BEM's (in a recent poll) now see mass immigration as problematic,

harringtons mob have been active in havering since the 8ts .. so not so suprising

 

[durruti02]

in some respects I think you're right. There is a massive problem dealing with the hostility there is to immigration. And I honestly cannot see any way to deal with it. Trying to stop immigration is be king kanute. You would have more chance of stopping the tide, then stopping immigration. Migration is the modern phenomena. The world has become a global village. Travel is so cheap, even the poor can afford it. And it is happening in every direction. Recently went to Cyprus, the Greek part, with a population of around 750,000. 62,000 of them are English. Mostly wealthy English, what we would call lower-middle-class, who are pricing locals out of homes. Horses for courses. Every form of migration presents problems and opportunities, in my humble opinion.

so lets look for a class based solution!!

 

[durruti02]

1)The migrants would get priority because they are in greater need with children - this is not an issue, this is what exists and has existed like this for some considerable time. Apologies, but I must say it looks like a racist position not to support this equal opportunity of access according to need principle regardless of the politics you have (or have had). I appreciate this is a managerialist Labour position, but this is the working reality of government.

2)I think I am getting more radical in my old age - I think it (unequal opportunity/'pro' migrant scare stories) is being spread within working class communities by those who are at best niave regarding the propaganda information and the presentation of this sort of reactionary politics. For that it what it is. Arguing over access to housing and better managerial access for 'locals' (a category that I have many problems with) gets out of the political into arguements based on false constructions, such as 'migrants', 'immigrants', 'race' (all ideas with no basis).

3)I prefer to argue over housing policy/building/ etc as that is the only realistic long term solution.

4)In Hackney Migrants and locals already are in council housing which is vastly over subscribed in terms of population, with no hope of relocation within Hackney eg. 2 parents 4 kids in 2 bed council flat, (4 kids in 1 bedroom).

1) well at least you have the bottle to say this unlike some on here .. but yes you are falling into a managerial position instead of one that is aimed at increasing community power/belief/sustainability .. you need to look at this migration with the background of mass unemployment and neo liberalism ..

2) i absolutely think you have the cart before the horse here .. it is BECAUSE of what you describe that we need to be 100% clear about what is going on .. that we need to be honest and up front .. you do not deal with myth by attacking those who fall for them as nazis and racists .. you do not deal with myth by pretending there is no material issue at all

3) this misses out the base and any attempt at community building and also ignores what IS happenning with housing .. there is NO overall housing shortage .. the issue os an overheating south , cowboy builders and an economic pull into areas with shortage ..

4) absolutely .. and these 2nd 3rd generation communities are being fked over ..

 

[TremulousTetra]

so lets look for a class based solution!!

precisely, unite with the immigrants, not the bosses and the fascists!

 

[nino_savatte]

harringtons mob have been active in havering since the 8ts .. so not so suprising

And Harrington is a something of a national syndicalist iirc.

 

[nino_savatte]

nino .. you are being very very very slippery

.. NO ONE is suggesting AT ALL that migrants get housing on the basis of being migrants AS YOU CONTINUAL SUGGEST

what is being asked of you is about this scenario

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "

simply try to answer this ..

MC, indirectly, has introduced another scenario .. who gets housed on a family house .. a homeless family or a local family who needs more rooms?

I'm not being "slippery", durutti; and I have already told you how the housing allocation system works. Your scenario is a red herring.

 

[JimPage]

What part of manchester, usually such groups do well on the fringes of a city, working class area, tory club, orange club, etc,

Charlestown Ward- result below

Liberal Democrat 239
British National Party 628
Tory 188
Labour Party1373
Green Party 81

No idea what area like, other than as can be seen solid labour