Griffin and BNP strategy
- Thread starter durruti02
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TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
by comparison 2006 resultsJimPage said:
Everything seems to be down, the turnout, and the number of votes for the three main parties. But the vote nearly matches votes lost by the UK Independence party and the Conservative party.
The Black Hand
Unclean
durruti02 said:
1) Was more a description of 'what happens' rather than my preferred scenario. I agree with Nino, the scenario you wanted answering does not exist, it is a completely hypothetical proposition.
2) I agree there is a material issue, but this cannot be divorced from wider economics. To do so is to capitulate to ignorance masquarading as 'common sense' (which in this case is reactionary sense).
3) I said what I preferred to argue over, asking me what I suggest regarding community building is a completely different question.
Up here, in the under populated north housing does not appear to be much of an issue, endless poverty is the issue here. Class is still the dominant way people understand the world - in my town there are perhaps 3 migrant families and no visible anxiety. Though contrary to my previous posting there now appears to be some local BNP in my town, I still haven't seen any of them, and their 'local' condidate was not from this town and lives 7/8 miles away. Though they have no political life which is noticeable and did poorly in the election (7th out of 7 standing).
Regarding 'what is happening with housing', policy cannot be separated from what goes on 'on the ground' - there are some links, and i agree that we should be able to talk about peoples experience. If people experience what has happenend to them in a racist manner, due to some variant of working class British imperialist culture, then engaging with a particular part of this phenomena is not going to have any effect on transmission for the next generation(s). Working class culture is not essentially racist, it is constantly projected and rebuilt. It is possible to engage on acutall allocation and policy from a working class perspective which talks about the problems and says migrants are being doubly victimised, cos that is migrant reality now.
Here's another migrant scare for you - I know there are lots (thousands) of workers who go down South every week and have temporary digs. This takes more housing off the market, and highers prices for the locals, takes their jobs, etc squeezing supply. SO perhaps you should spread 'White Northerner scare stories' to divide the racist vote
The Black Hand
Unclean
treelover said:
CHeers, yes I do think it would be worth some academics getting a large grant and doing some interesting research for a change
SOme twat from the Economic Research COuncil (Professor Smith, Derby Uni I believe) has just said the dole up North should be cut because it means us unemployed northerners are having a whale of a time on the money they are paying us. I would have no grief if his car was smashed up by some irate Derby locals working in solidarity for their northern bretheren...
Edit to add; "Just read that he was visiting Derby - dunno where he is based".I repeat - what a twat.
Here's a link to his photo - http://www.derby.ac.uk/press-office/news-archive/are-you-valued-where-you-live
http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/...objectid=19313798&siteid=50081-name_page.html
'Cut North benefits'Jun 18 2007
By Chloe Griffiths, The Journal
A controversial report has declared people in the North should be paid lower benefits in a bid to end the region's "dole culture".
The study argues that people in the region should be paid less in unemployment benefits and receive a less generous minimum wage than their counterparts in the South.
The Economic Research Council's report even suggests the minimum wage for workers in the North-East should be slashed by 57p an hour to just £4.78.
The Think Tank - Britain's oldest examining economic issues - also claims substantial cuts should be made to the minimum wage in Yorkshire, Northern Ireland and Wales, while the rate in London should be increased.
It claims "unfair and intrusive" tax and benefits are fuelling a "dole culture" in the region.
But yesterday MPs and business leaders in the region poured scorn on the suggestion - insisting it would further penalise the North-East. Director of manufacturing organisation EEF Northern Alan Hall said: "I can see no reason why they should differentiate between the North and the South.
"A national minimum wage should not be used to create further divides. I think the region has come a long way in the last 15 to 20 years and it doesn't have the same level of unemployment it once did. Generally people are between jobs and to give less benefits would only penalise them when they need help."
The sentiments were echoed by Newcastle East and Wallsend MP Nick Brown.
He said: "It would only exacerbate any differences in working pay between the North and the South. The challenge is to get the economy of the North more like the economy of the UK in general."
He added: "Making people who are poor poorer is not the answer. The minimum wage is not there to set different standards, it is supposed to be a safety net."
Using a raft of official labour market and price data, the study says maintaining a standard level of unemployment benefits is encouraging people in the region not to work, while penalising more productive southerners, who have to suffer higher living costs and house prices.
Prof David Smith from the University of Derby, who produced the report, argues it removes the incentive to work in parts of the country where wages are lower.
Prof Smith said: "If you are in London benefits are a very poor substitute for work.
"If you are in the North-East, benefits are a very good substitute for work - so you tend to get far more people on benefits up there."
He went on to brand the system "unfair". He added: "Britain's tax and benefits system has got more unfair over the past 10 years. The minimum wage for Londoners is effectively a joke - laughably low."
ResistanceMP3 said:precisely, unite with the immigrants, not the bosses and the fascists!
i do when and where i can .. i suspect more than most on here
.. how many posters of those who attack me for being a xenophobe and closet racist etc etc 
are actively and successfully recruiting eastern european workers to their union????? most of these 'socialists' are not even shop stewards!!!but your post is really almost, almost, empty and meaningless .. a a cliche .. what doe sit mean in practice??? how at Gate Gormet or Irish Ferries does what you say work??
when we have millions on the dole , when as you agree the bossess are actively recruiting cheap labour abroad, your slogan is almost meaningless ... it is not that it is wrong .. it is that is is in the wrong time or place
the key issue for socialists, workers and unions here should be demanding that bosses recruit locally at a living wage .. that bosses do e.g. NOT poach nurses or import labour .. No???
nino_savatte said:
being slippery again??
.. it is on myth and red herrings that facism thrives .. it would be better for all if you answered the scenarios ..
p.s. it is instructive that you do not ... you have NOT explained how housing allocation works .. you have just parroted endlessly that migrants, as migrants, do NOT get preferential treatment .. to which NO one disagrees!
Attica said:1) Was more a description of 'what happens' rather than my preferred scenario. I agree with Nino, the scenario you wanted answering does not exist, it is a completely hypothetical proposition.
2) I agree there is a material issue, but this cannot be divorced from wider economics. To do so is to capitulate to ignorance masquarading as 'common sense' (which in this case is reactionary sense).
3) I said what I preferred to argue over, asking me what I suggest regarding community building is a completely different question.
Up here, in the under populated north housing does not appear to be much of an issue, endless poverty is the issue here. Class is still the dominant way people understand the world - in my town there are perhaps 3 migrant families and no visible anxiety. Though contrary to my previous posting there now appears to be some local BNP in my town, I still haven't seen any of them, and their 'local' condidate was not from this town and lives 7/8 miles away. Though they have no political life which is noticeable and did poorly in the election (7th out of 7 standing).
Regarding 'what is happening with housing', policy cannot be separated from what goes on 'on the ground' - there are some links, and i agree that we should be able to talk about peoples experience. If people experience what has happenend to them in a racist manner, due to some variant of working class British imperialist culture, then engaging with a particular part of this phenomena is not going to have any effect on transmission for the next generation(s). Working class culture is not essentially racist, it is constantly projected and rebuilt. It is possible to engage on acutall allocation and policy from a working class perspective which talks about the problems and says migrants are being doubly victimised, cos that is migrant reality now.
Here's another migrant scare for you - I know there are lots (thousands) of workers who go down South every week and have temporary digs. This takes more housing off the market, and highers prices for the locals, takes their jobs, etc squeezing supply. SO perhaps you should spread 'White Northerner scare stories' to divide the racist vote
1) yes of course it is hypothetical!!!!!!!! every housing situation is unique .. but the two scenarios i put are in general circulation and to simply refuse to answer as nino does is nonsense ... and these are what the bnp etc come out with .. to ignore them is not nor does work ..
2) i agree .. but you can not as experiance shows shout about the general if yoiu are not open and honest about the specific .. it just does not wash
3)i think my point was it is the immediate that is important to have an answer for ..
yes of course where you and i are are differrent housing worlds currently .. i am not generalising to where you live .. but i daisgree that poeple are experianceing this in a raciall manner .. they see it as a rights and wrongs as a lack of fairness .. i do NOT see any rise in racism ..
the point about northern workers is interesting .. yes they did used to come to the south as skilled and unskilled labour .. and my point would stand exactly as before .. i would say the same thing .. that workers should be recruited locally .. it is no differrent .. and interestingly in fact many thousends have LOST work they used to do since EU enlargement ..
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:being slippery again??
.. it is on myth and red herrings that facism thrives .. it would be better for all if you answered the scenarios ..
p.s. it is instructive that you do not ... you have NOT explained how housing allocation works .. you have just parroted endlessly that migrants, as migrants, do NOT get preferential treatment .. to which NO one disagrees!
I have already told you how the system works. All you have done is suggest that I'm "lying" and that immigrants jump the housing queues. I'm not going back to find the post but I know that I already told you how it works. if you want it, you go and find it.
Just to repeat: Your scenarios are red herrings.
BTW you keep contradicting yourself and you appear to want it both ways.
It would be better if you could try to be honest for a change.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
tbaldwin said:
Tell you what, you don't believe me, so why don't you pop off down to your local town hall and get the figures for your borough yourself. There's nothing stopping you.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
dash_two said:
You can't win the argument so you resort to smear tactics. Cute.
Would this be with the Patels, those 'militant' former Ugandan East Asians who own the global food empire, or the Moons who tried to ban unions, many many migrants want to leave the working class, etc, behind as soon as possible, just look at the US. Simpistic argments which show why the 19 C left is flailing and failing.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
The same is true of a great many w/c. People forget about social mobility and others would rather use it as a stick to beat certain folk with.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
tbaldwin said:
You demand stats and proof but fail to deliver on those things yourself.
Go whistle.
nino_savatte said:
no nino you have NOT answered ANYTHING
.. you keep repeating a straw man of immigrants getting preferenial treatment or as you say above 'jumping the housing queue' .. no one is saying this
you are simply being asked your opinion on two scenarios. one is this
" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "
the other is this
" a couple in a small flat where the chidren are sharing and they need more room will not get rehoused and will see immigrants (from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. more children "
both of these scenarios are key to the BNP propaganda .. please as an ex? housing officer give us all a clear rundown on these scenarios ..
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
You refuse to listen and why? Because you want to think that immigrants are pushing their way to the top of housing lists. You swallow the lies and the myths because you lack the capability of looking at the facts. You don't want to know because it would upset your cosy wee world where immigrants take food from the mouths of babes.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
I have. Now if you don't like the answer, tough. Those are the facts. You have recycled what you describe as "BNP propaganda" in the hope that I will say "Ah, yes, the immigrants are being moved to the top of the housing list". Sorry but it doesn't work like that. Why? Because it isn't true.
nino_savatte said:
please show me where you answered this as for the life of me i can not see it .. you have repeated over and over that migrants do not jump queues etc when no one is arguing this!
talk about evasion! your refusal to deal with these two scenairos speaks volumes .. i might even say it shows that you know the answer but your are too ? to admit it ..
i think you know the answer .. that the family in greater housing need will get housed before / will get priority over the family in lesser need .. is that true??
and in many case that will be the migrant family NOT the local family .. true or not true?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
I've already told you this. Do you have memory problems?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:please show me where you answered this as for the life of me i can not see it .. you have repeated over and over that migrants do not jump queues etc when no one is arguing this!
your refusal to deal with these two scenairos speaks volumes .. i might even say it shows that you know the answer but your are too ? to admit it ..
i think you know the answer .. that the family in greater housing need will get housed before / will get priority over the family in lesser need .. is that true??
and in many case that will be the migrant family NOT the local family .. true or not true?
Your memory is getting worse, durutti. Either that, or you're being deliberately and wilfully ignorant.
Pereception of something is not the same as the reality. But then, you believe the myth that "migrants" are given priority over others in social housing. There is nothing I can say that will change that because you've already made up your mind. Tell you what, why don't you just call me a "liar" and get it over with? I know how the housing allocation sytem works and I've told you. You just don't want to believe it. Do you work in housing? Do you know anyone who works in housing?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
tbaldwin said:
You're the myth peddler, baldwin. You continue to assume that immigrants are taking things away from you.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
The trouble with you is that you refuse to accept what I have said because, in your mind, immigrants are going to the top of the housing queue. Oddly enough, you have no proof of this; which supports what I have said about the allocation system all along.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
tbaldwin said:
I'd like to see the stats that support you contentions...if you would be so kind. No? Then stfu.
nino_savatte said:
You only tackle the bnp by uniting the community.
http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/S...Martial-Arts-f1/New-group-Ulverston-t3851.htm
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