nino_savatte
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torres said:
Hardly and there is abundant evidence to support my claim. But then, it would suit you to engage in smears wouldn't it? After all, you are a returning poster, are you not?
Griffin and BNP strategy
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
Hardly and there is abundant evidence to support my claim. But then, it would suit you to engage in smears wouldn't it? After all, you are a returning poster, are you not?
nino_savatte
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dash_two said:
Go fuck yourself, trollboy.
Your style is pretty familiar. Another returning poster?
Of course you are, you post silly pictures up....it's usually bagels...now a change...it's Alan Sugar.
JimPage said:
ah ha!! fascinating post! so drinking pop as a kid leads to alco pops as a teenager and alcholism in later life???
.. mate .. the way you therefore deal with it is to NOT kick off at someone like me and millions in real life who say local jobs should go to local people but to deal with the issues .. 3 million unemployed .. and the bosses import immigrants .. it is bullshit .. any socialist should argue that people should be employed locally ..
nino_savatte said:
no games .. but you ARE evading the question .. to repeat what i asked you in 436
" .. i see nothing that contradicts the assertion that a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. in fact you actually back up this assertion in your second paragraph .."
you say you work in housing managment .. i most definately do not .. so show me where i am wrong ..
p.s. you are also being ( deliberately?) disingenuous by suggesting that ANYONE is suggesting immigrants get given flats just for being immigrants .. the argument is about what priority needs to be given, what balance needs to be set, between NEED and LOCAL CONNECTION and LENGTH of residence
MC5 said:1)In response to your "the right of communities to decide who and how people should live in those communities" I said: that ain't gonna happen under the present system.
2)You might think it's gonna happen with your "one step at a time" reformist approach, but for people to be able to make a decision like that, first there will first have to be a seismic shift in power away from the present set-up.
3)As I said, workers putting pressure on bosses to employ locally is divisive and will pit worker against worker.
As for your:
4)Yes you are wrong. I was active around the Grunwicks dispute (and others)and had no problem opposing the bosses there bringing in cheap, scab labour. That dispute created unity, particularly from miners and postal workers, which was then sabotaged by the then leaders of the TUC and some in the Labour party.
5)No one here is arguing that local kids should not get jobs, but there is a difficulty here with your proposals. What about kids who are not local to where these jobs are? Who in the 'community' will be making these decisions? What criteria is to be used to say yes to some and no to others?
6)It would be problematic if:
7)It all depends who you mean when you say "the left"? Some on the left oppose further immigration controls. Others say let local kids do these jobs.
1)?? who said its going to happen in this society .. it is a case of starting somewhere ..
and 2) a seismic shift will only happen from the base .. we need to start from the very base .. you propose nothing usefull in this ..
3) how is it devisive??? is it devisive too, to campaign against exporting jobs?? thats essentialy what you are saying .. it is ludicrous to say it it is devisive to campaign for local jobs for local people
4)good to see we agree on this .. but what is the differrence then between the specific .. grunwicks GG Irish Ferries and the general?? ... the implications/affects are the same .. this is why i have always said immigration is NOT a stand alone issue .. it is part and parcel of neo- liberalism CCT/outsourcing etc
5) good questions .. the process is actually as important as the end result .. it is the demand and exactly the questions yo put that will help rebuild communities and ultimately the class as a revolutionary class .. this is NOT a fudge .. i am serious .. these are the very questions we should be asking .. shold be puting out there ..
6)youre not right here .. SW has said similar .. as i posted on the Marx thread .. tbh mate i have not seen any one .. actually accept john cruddas .. talk about these issues .. SP have said some half sensible stuff ..
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durruti02 said:
Starting somewhere? Yeah, and your focus at the mo is a full on attack against immigration and by implication this obsession of yours can only lead to division between workers. Workers of the world unite, unless of course you happen to be an immigrant, migrant, refugee.
I'm at the base, fuckin' born there matey. From immigrant ancestry too. Gonna appeal to my boss to sack me and employ somebody "local" are you?
It's divisive because your rhetoric can only add to divisions already there.
Grunwicks, GG, Irish Ferries, involved unity in action, not divisions.
Help rebuild communities and ultimately the class as a revolutionary class? How does appealing to bosses, trade union leaders, the state, coupled with a full on attack against immigration lead to a 'revolutionary class'? More a reactionary class if they were to follow your lead.
You've bottled it durruti02. You've decided you cannot beat the BNP by notions such as unity and internationalism, so you adopt the rhetoric of an anti-immigrant.
To be clear, not a fascist, or racist anti-immigration message, but a phoney, ultra-leftist one.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
I'm not "evading" anything" You refuse to understand, despite the evidence that I have given as a former local authority housing worker, that there is no priority given to folk because they are immigrants. How many times do I need to say it? You have already made up your mind that immigrants are being advanced up the housing list at the expense of "natives", so why should I bother even discussing this any further?
Are you being deliberately and wilfully ignorant for the sake of it?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
MC5 said:..and you can fuckoff an' all with your pathetic attempts at comedy.
She should stick to her day job...whatever that is.
nino_savatte said:
Your lying again nino.
The fact? that you worked as a housing officer for Lambeth and Islington does not exactly make you a fountain of knowledge on the subject......
But you do know that the homeless persons act effectivelly means it is often easier to be housed if you come from outside the UK.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
tbaldwin said:
Another strawman, balders? If you aren't sending out strawmen to do your dirty work, you're lying or smearing me.
Come again? What's a fountain of knowledge?
Have you ever worked in housing, baldwn? No and I'm willing to bet that you don't know anyone who does either.
MC5 said:
you've lost it here mate .. bottled it??? sorry you make no sense!!first off outside of these debates immigration is not on my focus at all .. i am constantly amazed that you and others do not understand that UKPCAN on urban 75 is a DEBATING forum .. where people argue .. this is not the action protest forum ..
you call me ultra left yet come out with slogans which yuou have no way of actually bringing to fruition .. that is almost the definition of ultra left .. workers unity?? who when ?? so as i said before .. you would walk outof a job and allow the bosses to employ cheap labour??? of course you would not !!! so what is you meaningless bull about 'workers unity'
i'm of immigrant ancestry too .. (my dads first language isnt english) .. most of us are .. this has NO relevance to the debate .. the situation we all live in is the consequence of the devastation brought by capitalism .. the irish famine inequality war and slavery ..
but these debates are about whether we want to CONTINUE TO BE the flotsam and jetsam of capitalist economics .. do you???
you are wrong or nieve about GG and Irish Ferries .. these were about the bosses bringing in immigrants .. it pushed out established staff and both were LOST as the unions FAILED to take effective action ..
and "..appealing to bosses.." .. where do you think up such shit!!!
.. never ONCE have I talked about 'appealing to bosses' .. whats wrong with you .. i am talking about campaigning in teh Labour Movement to FORCE the bosses and institution to employ locally FORCE F O R C E capisce????you last two paras are just nonsense .. i absolutely support internationalism and unity .. but this has to be created not sloganised ..
It is not a question of myths nino –it is a question of perceptions of truth
and those hundreds of thousands of people who voted far right see the world in a different way to you and your chums but then i am sure that as you and your chums have often demonstrated just call them all ignorant add on a couple of ‘ists’ and bury your head in the sand it will all go away....
So many posts Nino and not a credible suggestion it is not good enough to simply tell people as you and kyber suggest that its all a myth .It might be a myth to you but overcrowding lack of housing lack of education etc etc is a reality for some of them.
It will not cut the mustard and its a very lazy argument if you think saying you once worked in a housing department is going to convince people not to vote bnp or believe what you say is the truth simply because you said so-we are living in a period where the power of conspiracy is on the increase as trust in local and national governments is in decline.
your whole approach to this issue and indeed the wider issue of the decline of the left is really is childish . But then it is not based on democratic principles or listening to people or engaging with people –it based on an ideology of diktat . This is a very dangerous manner in which to approach such a subject matter especially as in terms of wider society as we appear to be heading towards some sort of corporate-techo- totalitarian state –. If the left continue as the way they are heading then they are sowing the seeds for a massive backlash over the next 10 years .The far right are not playing for the now they are only interested in there ideology taking hold and becoming seen as a truth- this goal of there perception seen as truth is more important than actually wining seats
you and your chums seem to be haemorrhaging support have you ever considered why this is?
Heres a question for all you leading lights who follow the 1 watt bulb that is nino to consider
if you were from a white working/under class background say and given what amounted to a choice of political diktat who would you vote for ?
one which argues that with regards to housing ; we are telling the truth believe us if you disagree with our argument you are ‘ist’ and you cannot be any sort of ‘ist’ join our party but you WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO THINK WHAT YOU WANT OR SAY WHAT YOU WANT NOW ie swp respect etc
or one that argues
you can be as ‘ ist as you like’ and we will give you priority housing priority health BUT WE WILL ONLY ALLOW YOU TO THINK WHAT WE WANT AND SAY WHAT WE WANT ONE DAY
spot the difference or deferrence?
Both ideologies far right left wing depend on an eventual economic meltdown if that were to happen tomorrow who do you think would have the most credibility nino? An swp/respect left wing which some see, and others argue is inseparable from the current mainstream leftwing liberal media/governing metropolitan elite with little relevance to the daily life’s of most people or one that says we told you so –the foreigners are taking your housing and jobs?
for reasons of demographics nino you need the white working class more that they need you- I also love the way that a lot of people on these boards have just sat back and watched as the black community has also imploded and is finding self help in the church but then following your argument nino maybe they are neo cons thru and thru and doing this deliberately as a form of
"emotional blackmail" tactic
You are now scraping the dreggs nino. i have never accused you of being a liar- true i think you are many things you are almost a good a troll as panda if only you were a liar then the left would not have the massive structural problems that it does and those from the bottom part of society would not be as divided as they are
Jesus was a great con artist but at least he offered heaven – what is it exactly that your marxist/hegelian metaphysical argument is offering? It seems to be that you are only offering the utopia of neo con free market policies
The only thing Marx was correct about was his idea of class interest i wonder whose class interest you are acting in favour of nino?
still when the going gets tough nino starts ignoring – is that the official policy of how you and your so called open minded leftwing swp/respect/anarcho/eco friends are going to respond to the growing problems of globalisation and its effect on people who live in this country and throughout the world?
and those hundreds of thousands of people who voted far right see the world in a different way to you and your chums but then i am sure that as you and your chums have often demonstrated just call them all ignorant add on a couple of ‘ists’ and bury your head in the sand it will all go away....
So many posts Nino and not a credible suggestion it is not good enough to simply tell people as you and kyber suggest that its all a myth .It might be a myth to you but overcrowding lack of housing lack of education etc etc is a reality for some of them.
It will not cut the mustard and its a very lazy argument if you think saying you once worked in a housing department is going to convince people not to vote bnp or believe what you say is the truth simply because you said so-we are living in a period where the power of conspiracy is on the increase as trust in local and national governments is in decline.
your whole approach to this issue and indeed the wider issue of the decline of the left is really is childish . But then it is not based on democratic principles or listening to people or engaging with people –it based on an ideology of diktat . This is a very dangerous manner in which to approach such a subject matter especially as in terms of wider society as we appear to be heading towards some sort of corporate-techo- totalitarian state –. If the left continue as the way they are heading then they are sowing the seeds for a massive backlash over the next 10 years .The far right are not playing for the now they are only interested in there ideology taking hold and becoming seen as a truth- this goal of there perception seen as truth is more important than actually wining seats
you and your chums seem to be haemorrhaging support have you ever considered why this is?
Heres a question for all you leading lights who follow the 1 watt bulb that is nino to consider
if you were from a white working/under class background say and given what amounted to a choice of political diktat who would you vote for ?
one which argues that with regards to housing ; we are telling the truth believe us if you disagree with our argument you are ‘ist’ and you cannot be any sort of ‘ist’ join our party but you WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO THINK WHAT YOU WANT OR SAY WHAT YOU WANT NOW ie swp respect etc
or one that argues
you can be as ‘ ist as you like’ and we will give you priority housing priority health BUT WE WILL ONLY ALLOW YOU TO THINK WHAT WE WANT AND SAY WHAT WE WANT ONE DAY
spot the difference or deferrence?
Both ideologies far right left wing depend on an eventual economic meltdown if that were to happen tomorrow who do you think would have the most credibility nino? An swp/respect left wing which some see, and others argue is inseparable from the current mainstream leftwing liberal media/governing metropolitan elite with little relevance to the daily life’s of most people or one that says we told you so –the foreigners are taking your housing and jobs?
for reasons of demographics nino you need the white working class more that they need you- I also love the way that a lot of people on these boards have just sat back and watched as the black community has also imploded and is finding self help in the church but then following your argument nino maybe they are neo cons thru and thru and doing this deliberately as a form of
"emotional blackmail" tactic
You are now scraping the dreggs nino. i have never accused you of being a liar- true i think you are many things you are almost a good a troll as panda if only you were a liar then the left would not have the massive structural problems that it does and those from the bottom part of society would not be as divided as they are
Jesus was a great con artist but at least he offered heaven – what is it exactly that your marxist/hegelian metaphysical argument is offering? It seems to be that you are only offering the utopia of neo con free market policies
The only thing Marx was correct about was his idea of class interest i wonder whose class interest you are acting in favour of nino?
still when the going gets tough nino starts ignoring – is that the official policy of how you and your so called open minded leftwing swp/respect/anarcho/eco friends are going to respond to the growing problems of globalisation and its effect on people who live in this country and throughout the world?
nino_savatte said:
I ACCEPT THIS THAT IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT GIVEN PRIORITY .. NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION WHO GETS PRIORITY HERE????
" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. "
Distinctly end of peer one thinks though becky...end of peer
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durruti02 said:
durruti02, I dealt with someone the other day (middle class and a home owner) who believed that he couldn't get a place for his Mother in a care home because of immigrants getting priority!
He also spoke about "ethnics" and because of monitoring believed that this was part and parcel of giving preferential treatment to immigrants and by implication black people! Absolute and complete nonsense.
The vast majority of people in care homes are white and born in this country, overwhelmingly so in fact. You'll find very few people from the Black community in care homes and hardly any Asian people (even those born in the UK) and definately no immigrants.
I told him that was an utter and complete myth and explained that "ethnic monitoring" was a tool to enable independent bodies to monitor any discrimination against any group by organisations and to ensure that people were fairly treated and represented.
It is important to dispel these myths and not add to them like recent statements from Hodge, who failed to mention that under Housing Law an assessment has to take into account a local connection to the area like family, or employment.
What Hodge also didn't mention was the 'dispersal programme', an emergency measure brought in by her Government some years ago. This was an attempt to deal with extra demands on resources in the South of the country with regards to asylum seekers.
This was causing real problems for some local authorities. Those granted refugee status, were in some cases given a high priority after a homelessness assessment. This took place when individuals came to the end of their temporary NASS accommodation. Mostly, those granted refugee status, were placed in low demand, high rise properties. These were so difficult to let that there was even talk of turning them into student accommodation, or sheltered housing for the elderly (floors ripped out and care provision placed on-site).
That's why you get the perception that somehow "immigrants" are given priority.
We have heard all this nonsense before. Instead of pandering to it we should be opposing it for what it is.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
I answered your question but you decided to ignore it. I am not going to repeat myself for the sake of your ego. Go back and read the post, there's a good boy.
nino_savatte said:
i do not think you did .. if you did ... apologys .. what post was it in?
if you mean you repeated again that no priority is given to immigrants than i accept that .. what you did not answer is my specific instance .. could you do that now as it is the most common bnp type accusation and we need to be clear on it?
" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. "
MC5 said:
I agree almost 100% with your post MC
.. and i would add that many more instances of people seeing migrnats taking flats ( apart from NASS) are actually RTB flats being rented out at exorbitant rentsbut i am afraid that you are missing out a key fact .. every year over 100k migrants get given secure status ( i gave the link a few days ago .. mostly after 5 years etc ) and most of these qualify for and receive social housing ..
one issue i said to you earlier is the differrence between the south east/london and lancs ( where i asume you live) .. the vast majority of recent migrants setle here for economic and social reasons .. and hence the impact is far greater than you see
and to repeat there is none of this hard to let anymore down here .. long gone ..
p.s. where i live the majority of care home residents are afrocarib
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durruti02 said:I agree almost 100% with your post MC
but i am afraid that you are missing out a key fact .. every year over 100k migrants get given secure status ( i gave the link a few days ago .. mostly after 5 years etc ) and most of these qualify for and receive social housing ..
p.s. where i live the majority of care home residents are afrocarib
I need to see that link again for accuracy like.
Is that just the one care home?
MC5 said:
no all of them!!
.. high % afrocarib where i live .. the link is http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb1204.pdf
see e.g. paragraph 21
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3621964.stm
"There was an increase of 29 per cent in the number of people settling in the UK in 2005 to 179, 120, with employment-related grants of settlement rising by 49 per cent to 63,015"
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...+of+settlement"+2006&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=uk
p.s. i assume you accept what i say that we should not accept being the flotsam and jetsam of capitalist economics!???
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
You keep sending out this strawman, durutti. It's boring.
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durruti02 said:no all of them!!
the link is http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb1204.pdf
see e.g. paragraph 21
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3621964.stm
"There was an increase of 29 per cent in the number of people settling in the UK in 2005 to 179, 120, with employment-related grants of settlement rising by 49 per cent to 63,015"
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...+of+settlement"+2006&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=uk
p.s. i assume you accept what i say that we should not accept being the flotsam and jetsam of capitalist economics!???
'flotsam and jetsam'? We are talking about people here.
You can play the numbers game if you want, but I'm more a humanitarian.
As for care homes? Can you quote the relevant point because I had a quick look at the link you posted and it appeared to be about asylum and immigration and not care homes.
Anyway, nationally the vast majority of older people in said care homes are white, which would be the case seeing as the vast majority of the population are, err just that.
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