Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Casual Observer]

The idea that the refurbishment project carried out by Rydon was primarily about aesthetics has really taken hold now. It seems to be taken as fact that it was the main motivator yet as far as I can see the only evidence for this is one extract from a planning document which was really rather typical.

I've said on this thread several times that the cladding was part of an upgrade to improve the thermal performance of the building, this is something the council is absolutely obliged to do. There have been countless similar projects around the UK.
As part of the upgrade there were new windows installed which presumably would have had a better thermal performance and reduced sound transfer. There was also external wall insulation. These two things alone would have been to the benefit of the tenants and the tenants alone. You cannot install external wall insulation without a new cladding system of some description, it cannot be done.

There have traditionally been a number of funding options available to councils and social housing providers to help pay for these upgrades. You cannot get these substantial funding arrangements simply for prettying up a place. I don't know how this project was funded but I suspect there must have some sort of government fund tapped somewhere.

Now you can argue over the individual merits of modern design and cladding against the brutalist architecture of the 60's & 70's but I have absolutely no reason to doubt this was an attempt to make the block look better for everyone but the primary factor were the windows, insulation and redevelopment of the lower floors creating more flats. As I said pages and pages ago, re-furbs like this are meant to be a win win.

It seems that something has gone badly wrong in the planning and implementation of the construction project and there is a raft of other legitimate criticisms to make, many of which go straight to number 10.

What we have to ask is should council tenants live in warm flats with good windows? Should those more likely to struggle with paying energy bills be first in line for insulation and modern windows? I really think this focus on the motivation for the re-furb is at best unhelpful and at worse a distraction from the serious underlying failures. This is only my belief, but as I have said before I have personally been involved in many similar projects.

Teaboy, I don't disagree with what you have said on the subject of cladding and new windows but it's worth pointing out that that other parts of the refurbishment project were definitely not for the benefit of residents (converting what had been community space on the lower floors into 9 new flats, installing a new heating system to enable itemised charging charges for each flat for example).

I have a couple of cladding questions:

Have any of the cladding projects you have been involved in involved applying cladding on top of fluted concrete surfaces and if so, what measures were taken to fill in the vertical gaps created by the fluting on the original concrete surfaces?

Are there UK laws about the types of surface to which cladding can be applied?

Are UK cladding rules for new buildings different to those for old buildings?

 

[marty21]

I work for a local authority so of course there is much panic there at the moment coupled with thank fuck it wasn't one of our blocks. I was off last week and came back to the news that there was a fire in one of our blocks . Luckily ,no one died and the fire was contained within the flat and actually within the kitchen ,the block is not clad .

 

[brogdale]

Gotta say, that with all the whining and belly-aching from the rentiers on the MSM, perhaps Corbo needs to develop his emergency idea of empty house requisition into a policy of nationalisation.
Reckon that would be a popular way of increasing the social housing base quickly.
I'd vote for that.

 

[Pickman's model]

Some good news for once.

FIRE FAMILY FOUND
Grenfell Tower ‘family of five who were missing and feared dead are found ALIVE after managing to flee as fire took hold’


Grenfell Tower 'family of five who were missing and feared dead are found ALIVE after managing to flee'

Have you a non-murdoch link?

 

[Artaxerxes]

Some good news for once.

FIRE FAMILY FOUND
Grenfell Tower ‘family of five who were missing and feared dead are found ALIVE after managing to flee as fire took hold’


Grenfell Tower 'family of five who were missing and feared dead are found ALIVE after managing to flee'

Please just copy the entire article from the Sun if you want to share it.

Not giving the bastards pageviews.

 

[Casual Observer]

It's in the Telegraph as well which is marginally more palatable (not by much, mind you):

A family thought to be missing after the Grenfell Tower fire has been found alive and well

 

[Casual Observer]

Here's a photo of the Grenfell Tower cladding project nearing completion. There are a few panels missing at the bottom which I'm sure were rectified but the insulation material between the original surface of the building and the cladding panels themselves looks suspect. The insulation appears far from airtight, particularly the column on the inside left. In other words, the panelling seems to be creating enclosed air pockets up which a fire could spread quickly.

It's worth remembering that Rydon, the company who eventually won the tender for the refurb were not the original preferred contractor. KCTMO originally chose a company called Leadbitter who were then deemed too expensive so the project was put out to tender a second time to save money.

Sorry for the oversized picture. If a moderator felt able to spare my blushes I'd be grateful.

 

[Dogsauce]

It's in the Telegraph as well which is marginally more palatable (not by much, mind you):

A family thought to be missing after the Grenfell Tower fire has been found alive and well

I read a paper copy of the Sun on Sunday while waiting to have a haircut yesterday and they weren't actually that bad in their coverage, talking about stuff like people having been ignored. Only a minor dig at 'green targets' in Tony Parsehole's column had my eyes rolling. If anything the Telegraph has been worse with claims of left-wing antagonists getting involved, in an attempt to shut down any debate on class issues.

 

[squirrelp]

Yes but you don't get external funding in the millions from British Gas to fix the lifts. It's a distraction and the fact a conspiraloon like you is onto it should ring alarm bells.

I don't understand the point you are making here.
Can you explain?

 

[Dogsauce]

Here's a photo of the Grenfell Tower cladding project nearing completion. There are a few panels missing at the bottom which I'm sure were rectified but the insulation material between the original surface of the building and the cladding panels themselves looks suspect. The insulation appears far from airtight, particularly the column on the inside left. In other words, the panelling seems to be creating enclosed air pockets up which a fire could spread quickly.
(...)

I strongly suspect you're onto something here, those angled sections look like they're creating vertical conduits, fire would go straight up that. Looks like the original profile beneath is rounded.

I think on the photo on the cover of the Mirror a couple of days ago there appeared to be a vertical strip of missing insulation between each window block, wonder whether it was this detail? It could just be that these sections fell off easier due to how they were supported.

Sooner or later someone in the press is going to speak to one of the workmen involved in installation of the cladding, I'm sure there will be a story there.

 

[8den]

I don't understand the point you are making here.
Can you explain?

You're a conspiraloon spud and mad as a hatstand?

 

[Pickman's model]

You're a conspiraloon spud and mad as a hatstand?

"mad as a box of frogs"

 

[Corax]

There seems to be many things that the council and tenant management organisation were 'absolutely obliged to do' regarding fire safety for the residents of Grenfell Tower, but failed to. So, I don't think it is unfair to wonder about the true motivations of those who led the refurbishment project.

Yes but you don't get external funding in the millions from British Gas to fix the lifts. It's a distraction and the fact a conspiraloon like you is onto it should ring alarm bells.

I think the point isn't anything to do with the lifts, but more that they are "absolutely obliged" not to carry out works in such a way that they turn the block into a big fucking candle.

 

[Corax]

Here's a photo of the Grenfell Tower cladding project nearing completion. There are a few panels missing at the bottom which I'm sure were rectified but the insulation material between the original surface of the building and the cladding panels themselves looks suspect. The insulation appears far from airtight, particularly the column on the inside left. In other words, the panelling seems to be creating enclosed air pockets up which a fire could spread quickly.

It's worth remembering that Rydon, the company who eventually won the tender for the refurb were not the original preferred contractor. KCTMO originally chose a company called Leadbitter who were then deemed too expensive so the project was put out to tender a second time to save money.

I strongly suspect you're onto something here, those angled sections look like they're creating vertical conduits, fire would go straight up that. Looks like the original profile beneath is rounded.

I think on the photo on the cover of the Mirror a couple of days ago there appeared to be a vertical strip of missing insulation between each window block, wonder whether it was this detail? It could just be that these sections fell off easier due to how they were supported.

Sooner or later someone in the press is going to speak to one of the workmen involved in installation of the cladding, I'm sure there will be a story there.

There was one bit of technical info I read early on (and can't remember where now, sorry) stating that there should be fireblock material installed periodically to prevent this chimney type of effect. I don't think it's possible to tell anything about that from the photo.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

"mad as a box of frogs"

I've always thought boxed frogs get a hard time. I mean, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was a frog stuck in a box, and I reckon you would be too.

 

[8den]

I've always thought boxed frogs get a hard time. I mean, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was a frog stuck in a box, and I reckon you would be too.

Not sure why I said hatstand, it's not like they've got a reputation for being mental.

 

[bimble]

Not sure why I said hatstand, it's not like they've got a reputation for being mental.

A hatstand wouldn't try denying that it's a person in a court of law, whilst Squirrelp would.

 

[Corax]

A hatstand wouldn't try denying that it's a person in a court of law, whilst Squirrelp would.

You mean a ship, right?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Man overboard!

 

[brogdale]

Dave Smith speculating whether, as part of the Radical Housing Network, the Grenfell Action Group might have come to the attention of spycops.

 

[editor]

For the record, so we don't forget the names:
Government ministers 'congratulated themselves' for cutting fire regulations

 

[brogdale]

For the record, so we don't forget the names:
Government ministers 'congratulated themselves' for cutting fire regulations

Indeed.
This reads particularly badly...

‘Businesses with good records have had fire safety inspections reduced from six hours to 45 minutes, allowing managers to quickly get back to their day job.’

 

[planetgeli]

For the record, so we don't forget the names:
Government ministers 'congratulated themselves' for cutting fire regulations

Former Prime Minister David Cameron promised to abolish the ‘albatross’ of ‘over regulation’.

The albatross of over regulation. You Bullingdon cunt.

 

[Gramsci]

I read this today

Architects know Grenfell Tower fire was an avoidable tragedy | Deon Lombard

This article looks at the systemic reasons for the tragedy. Worth a read. Architects used to have much more influence in projects they worked on. Shows how cuts have led to cutting corners.

My concern and why I feel uncomfortable about what has been voiced is that two issues have been mixed up. The systemic reasons that led to this tragedy and the larger picture of gentrification of London. The divide between rich and poor.

Its taken this tragic loss of life for the above to be taken seriously in mainstream media.

If there is to be a public inquiry it should be wide ranging. Like the Scarman report post 81 riot in Brixton.

Looking at how the less well off in London feel they have been sidelined and ignored. How they feel ( correctly imo its something I hear a lot from ordinary people I meet) social and ethnic cleansing of London is a fact.

What sort of London people want.

Reading what residents in the area of the tragic fire are saying. Its also about the class divisions in the area. How they feel they are looked down on.

If anything positive is to come out if this tragedy one thing should be that the working class start to have a real say.

As I usually post up on Brixton forum a lot of the complaints of residents near the fire are what I hear in my area. There are two Londons. One for the well off and one for the poor.

And for voicing this one is regarded as as bringing up the usual shit on Brixton forum.

 

[editor]

I read this today

Architects know Grenfell Tower fire was an avoidable tragedy | Deon Lombard

This article looks at the systemic reasons for the tragedy. Worth a read. Architects used to have much more influence in projects they worked on. Shows how cuts have led to cutting corners.

My concern and why I feel uncomfortable about what has been voiced is that two issues hsve been mixed up. The systemic reasons that led to this tragedy and the larger picture of gentrification of London. The divide between rich and poor.

Its taken this tragic loss of life for the above to be taken seriously in mainstream media.

If there is to be a public inquiry it should be wide ranging. Like the Scarman report post 81 riot in Brixton.

Looking at how the less well off in London feel they have been sidelined and ignored. How they feel ( correctly imo its something I hear a lot fron ordinary people I met) social and ethnic cleansing if London is a fact.

What sort of London people want.

Reading what residents in the area of the tragic fire are saying. Its also about the class divisions in the area. How they feel they are looked down on.

If anything positive is to come out if this tragedy one thing should be that the working class start to have a real say.

As I usually post up on Brixton forum a lot of the complaints of residents near the fire are what I hear in my area. There are two Londons. One for the well off and one for the poor.

And for voicing this one is regarded as as bringing up the usual shit on Brixton forum.

The attitude displayed by some on the Brixton forum is symptomatic of British society as a whole. Anyone going on about poverty or poor housing or the growing divisions in society is someone to be dismissed or ridiculed.

 

[where to]

Don't get me wrong, it would have been a consideration in planning but however misguided they may have been I have no reason to doubt that they thought the new appearance would be beneficial to the whole community.

thought I would add a few words on this from the perspective of a local authority town planner as the comments from the planning report really have been wildly misrepresented, most prominently by the Independent.

firstly the planning stage will have had next to nothing to do with the original decision to clad the tower. the project will have been planned months or years before the planning application, which is a requirement for any development of this kind, not just because this development was connected with the Council. the planning application will have been submitted only when the decision to clad the tower was reached.

the purpose of the planning report was to set out the assessment of the merits of the proposals from a planning perspective. so the report was duty-bound to cover aspects such as appearance, including from the conservation area.

the consideration of impact of a proposal on a conservation area is absolutely standard for any development in or 'affecting' a conservation area. this has nothing to do with snobbery, conservation areas simply have architectural or historic value and are given special protection through the system for that reason. near Grenfell Tower is a large former public housing estate which is protected as as conservation area for its architectural value and its place 'in the landscape of labour history' (Old Oak Lane), whilst there will be miles of hyper expensive ugly modern developments occupied by the super-rich down at the Thames that aren't. yes conservation areas are generally occupied by the better off, but broadly speaking, that's simply because people pay a premium for well designed places.

finally, health and safety is not a planning matter. the planning application process is completely separate to the building warrant/ building control process, even though the two departments often work side by side. that means any concerns about health and safety will not have come into the author's thinking when writing their report. it was not a trade off between h & s and appearance.

unhelpfully, the application seems to have included a lot of superfluous technical information which gives the impression that it was relevant to the planning application. It is for the applicant to decide if they want to submit unnecessary detail, it doesn't mean this is given any consideration. the author of the report will probably have skimmed over some of this content. it wasn't relevant to the planning decision they had to make.

i've never been much of a fan of this cladding material, but that's a personal thing. on the face of it, this would have been a no-brainer approval for the author. reference to the Conservation Area was not a clincher, as much as simply box ticking.

the Independent article was really misleading and unhelpful and has sent people down a dead end.

EDIT TO ADD: this is not to say that people shouldn't question the process that led to the cladding of the tower. but simply that the planning report is not the evidence it is being presented as. a more pertinent question perhaps is whether it was easier to clad the tower than demolish it?

 

[bemused]

If there is to be a public inquiry it should be wide ranging. Like the Scarman report post 81 riot in Brixton.

I wouldn't want to see both issues rolled into a single review.

The safety aspect of that review needs to be done ASAP, wrapping into a wider debate is merely going to slow it down.

If people are living in giant candles I'd like to see a plan to make them safe sooner rather than later.

 

[squirrelp]

You mean a ship, right?

I'm not going to enter into the personalities here!

 

[UrbaneFox]

cos theres loads of other available land in Kensington for social housing

There are loads of run-down and empty shops on and around Notting Hill Gate and Kensington High Street, some of which could be bought and converted into houses and flats. I think they probably were intending to convert them into flats, etc, but Luxe affairs, not social housing.

 

[weepiper]

Andy Murray says if he wins at Queen's Club he will donate the £347,000 prize money to the victims of the fire.