Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Ted Striker]

TMOs are run by volunteers. As with all community organisations some work well and some don't.

(minor point but...) They (well, KCTMO did) have salaried staff. Quite a few, from memory. It's a business, in buiness. And that business (IME) was stripping the rich land for all sellable assets.

Again, I've never had the displeasure of engaging with a more ineffective, unmotivated and indecent organisation (this is all pre-Grenfell, and, again, all on relatively trivial matters (a leaking 4inch hole in a soil (shit) pipe into a garage block taking 6 months to repair was the most recent struggle...)

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/any-views-on-tmos.328372/#post-13472751

Imagine the pain of all of the times you've ever had to sort out fucked utilities bills, mobile phone contracts, getting an appointment at the local doctor, speaking-to-the-7th-person-on-this-call-alone just to find out why a delivery wasn't made, maybe a bit of proving some credit card purchase wasn't yours...all of those gruelling experiences, multiplied by a million, and you STILL don't touch the sides of the ordeal of getting ANYTHING remotely done with my (Kensington & Chelsea) TMO.

Every single experience was breaking new grounds in operational shitcuntery I have to have a valium next to the phone on standby such will be the seethingrage by the time I've put the phone down.

 

[scifisam]

site of a worse London fire.

Worse? More destruction of buildings but only about 8 actual dead.

Not disputing it, but that seems a bit odd, they were able to correctly identify 9/11 victims from the smallest fragments of bones, and DNA samples of relatives.

Edit to add, considering that some residents may well have been here, say, illegally, or as refugees, I just realised that it may be impossible to do the above.

They haven't been able to identify loads of the 9/11 victims. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/still-missing-unidentified-remains-leave-lingering-void-9-11-families-n642076 Really they're just going on who was likely to have been there rather than using DNA on every body.

 

[free spirit]

Of course it doesn't, it should have been contained, that's why I finished my post, which was in response to a post regarding power surges in the block, with 'Of course, none of this explains why it spread so fast, which remains the main issue.'

ok, but the rest of your post was irrelevant to the liability issue you were discussing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

EDL trolls are posting these same lies all over social media - one of which even claimed he got it from The Spectator (Boris Johnson's old rag).
Allow me to turn the lies into facts:

1 - The KCTMO is a tory quango acting as a residents body, the landlord is the tory council.

Nope, KCTMO is a Tory ALMO, not a quango.

2 a Labour MP was elected into that constituency only after last week's General Election, after being a tory safe seat for decades. And it remains a tory Council.

3 - the KCTMO are given a pot of money by the council to spend on day to day repairs, but the tory council is still the landlord

4 - Boris Johnson as Mayor cut 20,000+ firefighter jobs and close fire stations across the capital when told it was a bad idea publicly by an assembly member and that he lied to the people of London - he told that same assembly member to "get stuffed".

The figure is 500+. 20,000 is the reduction nationally.

5 - Siddiq Khan did not call for further reductions in firefighters and no such report exists.

6 - the Tory KC council sent emails to the rich residents apologising for the appearance of Grenfell informing them that they will be placing plastic cladding on the outside so that it wouldn't be such an "eyesore" for them to endure.

7 - Theresa May's aid and former MP Gavin Barwell was the Minister for Housing four years ago - when he received a report warning him that Grenfell Tower was a tragedy waiting to happen, he chose to ignore the report.

Barwell, chipmunk faced fuck though he is, was not Minister for Housing 4 years ago. He's held the job for a year and a half.

8 - Grenfell Action Group complained to KCTMO for years about the safety of Grenfell Tower, they asked the council to take action - the tory council ignored their requests.

9 - when the Adair tower block fire happened several years earlier, the tories again ignored the requests to make tower blocks safe and to improve fire regulations.

10 - nearly 300 Tory MPs many of whom were landlords chose to vote against safety regulations that would have made Grenfell Tower safer - including the instillation of sprinklers

The actual figure for Tory landlords who voted against, is 70.

11 - Grenfell Action Group is made up of residents who live in Grenfell Tower and who have campaigned against the cladding that was used and general fire safety issues for over a decade.

12 Emma Coad was campaigning for greater safety measures in Grenfell as were the Grenfell Action Group who are elected by the residents of Grenfell.

But hey I get it it's more important to right wing trolls that the tory vermin stay in power than the innocent lives that were lost.

Grenfell Action Group - proof of multiple complaints to KCTMO - GRENFELL TOWER FIRE

COPY AND PASTE WHENEVER YOU SEE THESE RIGHT WING TROLLS SPREADING FAKE INFO!!

You do the cause no favours by not fact-checking stuff before you post it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's Pilgrim Tucker - myself and Mation went to school with her - she's a community coordinator for Unite and was working with the Grenfell action group, organising and campaigning, along with the multitude of other campaigns she's involved with.

So come on sheo, 'fess up - how badly did you, Mation and the other bad girls take the piss out of her name?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Governmentt have finally said families can have £5,500 each. A really useful thing though would be an amnesty for anyone who was breaching a tenancy agreement or was an undocumented migrant. There will be families who probably feel like they can't access 'official' money.
Grenfell Tower fire: families to get £5,500 each from emergency fund, No 10 says - live updates

A sickeningly-ironic twist is that the standard "home loss" payment given to people who are socially-cleansed from their estates for "regeneration" purposes, is around the same amount. It's fuck-all, except an insult.

 

[D'wards]

Without out being too grim, will the bodies be identifiable as bodies, and
if so, would DNA testing be appropriate/work?

 

[Treacle Toes]

A sickeningly-ironic twist is that the standard "home loss" payment given to people who are socially-cleansed from their estates for "regeneration" purposes, is around the same amount. It's fuck-all, except an insult.

Well spotted. It will go no-where for families that have lost everything.

 

[crossthebreeze]

A sickeningly-ironic twist is that the standard "home loss" payment given to people who are socially-cleansed from their estates for "regeneration" purposes, is around the same amount. It's fuck-all, except an insult.

Also, statement from the residents that met Theresa May about the payment (from guardian live feed)

We naturally welcome funds for those in need, though this does show once more the tendency to sideline residents’ views.

At No 10 yesterday, the prime minister assured the group that from now on residents would be consulted on a coordinated relief effort. This has not happened with these funds.​

 

[ViolentPanda]

Tbf , they have to publish the minutes of board meetings on the council Website.

Yep, legal requirement, although many local authorities try to delay publication if there's any gold (for their enemies!) in there.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have worked for a TMO , about 15 years ago I tempted for one for about 6 months. What struck me at the time was that the tenant board members did have a lot of influence. I've no idea if this was the case at KCTMO ,but at the one I worked for ,a tenant board member interviewed applicants for vacant flats , 100% of them were nominations from the Local Authority, so I would show the flat ,then they were interviewed, and if the board member didn't like them (it was as simple as that) he could turn them down and another applicant was shown the flat. I did question this with management but they basically shrugged their shoulders They had to keep the board happy.

I was working in Housing with TMOs started to be created ,a Labour policy sadly. I was against them at the time, because it removed accountability from the councillors even though they were on the management boards.

TMOs can't interfere in allocations anymore, mate, and KCTMO isn't a TMO (I have this straight from "the horse's mouth" - someone on the board of the National Federation of TMOs), it's an ALMO.

 

[Corax]

Nope, KCTMO is a Tory ALMO, not a quango.

What's the difference - is it just ownership of capital assets?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Probably been posted already but I think the pop stars queuing up to join Simon Cowells' charity single for the Grenfell victims should get the inspiration for the lyrics of their song from this letter below.


Two women feared dead in Grenfell Tower tragedy were threatened with legal action - after raising alarm about fire safety
Mariem Elgwahry and Nadia Choucair were branded 'troublemakers' because they campaigned to make their homes safer

Grenfell Tower missing pair were sent legal threats after fire safety warning

I do hope the *Arkell vs Pressdram'ed the cunt.

Legendary Private Eye case where the response to a similar solicitor's letter was "fuck off".

 

[cupid_stunt]

ok, but the rest of your post was irrelevant to the liability issue you were discussing.

No it wasn't. I was replying to a post concerning previous power surges in the block that caused a lot of damage to people's electrical goods, and the fact that KCTMO's insurance company turned down the claims, and the liability issue involved in that decision. Only my last paragraph mentioned a possible, but unlikely, connection between power surges & what caused this fire, whilst also pointing out the speed that the fire spread was the main issue.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Without out being too grim, will the bodies be identifiable as bodies, and
if so, would DNA testing be appropriate/work?

Given the heat was enough to melt pottery in some areas of the tower, I expect at least some bodies will be completely lost and the rozzers have confirmed that might be the case.

 

[free spirit]

No it wasn't. I was replying to a post concerning previous power surges in the block that caused a lot of damage to people's electrical goods, and the fact that KCTMO's insurance company turned down the claims, and the liability issue involved in that decision. Only my last paragraph mentioned a possible, but unlikely, connection between power surges & what caused this fire, whilst also pointing out the speed that the fire spread was the main issue.

fair enough, I obviously didn't scroll back far enough in the thread to see that the discussion on liability was related to a previous case.

 

[Artaxerxes]

A sickeningly-ironic twist is that the standard "home loss" payment given to people who are socially-cleansed from their estates for "regeneration" purposes, is around the same amount. It's fuck-all, except an insult.

Do you have sources for that?

 

[ViolentPanda]

What's the difference - is it just ownership of capital assets?

An ALMO takes control of the assets fully, and operates autonomously from the council. Councils have used them historically as a method of hiving off responsibility for housing away from the council-proper, and onto an entity that insulates the council from financial and social consequences if anything goes pear-shaped. Here in Lambeth, housing repairs and maintenance were put into an ALMO, and led to a precipitous decline in maintenance, and in quality of repairs, that's still being recovered from. The ALMO was taken back in-house several years ago, and it was only last year that the council wrote off £10 million plus of debt the ALMO had accrued.

A TMO - that is a proper TMO - is resident-led. That is, it's a democratic body in which all members of the TMO - that is, ALL residents within the TMO's catchment - have a say in what happens to their housing, and board members do not have special powers over allocations etc. Board members are elected by the general membership, and are fully accountable to them, and to the Department of Communities & Local Government.

Final ownership of the capital assets always lies with the local authority, unless a full stock transfer has taken place, and even then, LAs can retain some rights.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you have sources for that?

The legislation itself.

Minimum payment is £5,800 (was £5,300 until last year). The minimum payment is by far the most usually prescribed by local authorities.

 

[Corax]

An ALMO takes control of the assets fully, and operates autonomously from the council. Councils have used them historically as a method of hiving off responsibility for housing away from the council-proper, and onto an entity that insulates the council from financial and social consequences if anything goes pear-shaped. Here in Lambeth, housing repairs and maintenance were put into an ALMO, and led to a precipitous decline in maintenance, and in quality of repairs, that's still being recovered from. The ALMO was taken back in-house several years ago, and it was only last year that the council wrote off £10 million plus of debt the ALMO had accrued.

A TMO - that is a proper TMO - is resident-led. That is, it's a democratic body in which all members of the TMO - that is, ALL residents within the TMO's catchment - have a say in what happens to their housing, and board members do not have special powers over allocations etc. Board members are elected by the general membership, and are fully accountable to them, and to the Department of Communities & Local Government.

Final ownership of the capital assets always lies with the local authority, unless a full stock transfer has taken place, and even then, LAs can retain some rights.

Thanks. I meant the difference v a QUANGO, but the above is helpful too!

 

[PaoloSanchez]

No, I don't disagree with this or the preceding statement at all - the very opposite. It's extremely likely to be a very complex web of responsibility. But this is not what you were saying.

This is why I tend not to bother with these threads. There's always a smart Alec who's right about everything and likes to tell you what you've said (and get it wrong). I'm quite happy with what I said in both posts and as far as I'm concerned they were consistent. If you disagree and want to nit pick and micro analyse my wording then I'm not interested.

To use your phrase, if we want better governance and better decision making, we have to elect better decision makers, and hold the ones we have to account. For some people, that means directing their anger at who they perceive to be responsible.

If you're happy with the lynch mob mentality then that's up to you, I just don't think that blame culture or scapegoating individuals is the best way to solve the problems that led to this tragedy. Yes the Tory haters might get some sort of satisfaction if May fell on her sword and it may quieten many of those angry people for a while, but will the changing of the guard at the top lead to meaningful change on the ground? I'm not so sure.

imo there's way too much internet noise surrounding this for my liking (and I'm guilty of adding to it with this post). In a court case you have judge, jury, prosecution and defence lawyers, witnesses and other interested parties. They look at the evidence in detail present their arguments to the jury who reach a verdict and the judge passes the sentence. That system while not perfect works quite well, and shouldn't be affected by public opinion, media headlines and speculation. It is still raw for the people directly involved and their friends and family and it's up to the rest of us to support them and then to let the professionals get on with the job of finding out what happened and why it happened. Fanning the flames of anger isn't what I consider to be supportive, but I may be alone in that way of thinking.

Anyway, I'm done for now. I had already unwatched the thread and wasn't going to bother replying until I saw Jonathan Pie and felt like sharing it here for those that hadn't already seen it.

 

[existentialist]

This is why I tend not to bother with these threads. There's always a smart Alec who's right about everything and likes to tell you what you've said (and get it wrong). I'm quite happy with what I said in both posts and as far as I'm concerned they were consistent. If you disagree and want to nit pick and micro analyse my wording then I'm not interested.

For an improved quality Urban experience, try taking the hubris and outrage down a few notches.

 

[marty21]

TMOs can't interfere in allocations anymore, mate, and KCTMO isn't a TMO (I have this straight from "the horse's mouth" - someone on the board of the National Federation of TMOs), it's an ALMO.

Well that is some good news.

 

[xenon]

Without out being too grim, will the bodies be identifiable as bodies, and
if so, would DNA testing be appropriate/work?

This is unavoidably grim. The ferocity of the fire in some parts of the building, may mean there are no remains as such to recover. You can't do DNA tests on ashes.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is why I tend not to bother with these threads. There's always a smart Alec who's right about everything and likes to tell you what you've said (and get it wrong). I'm quite happy with what I said in both posts and as far as I'm concerned they were consistent. If you disagree and want to nit pick and micro analyse my wording then I'm not interested.

mauvais's done a sterling job, and if you want to enjoy your time here you'd do well to be more precise.

 

[Dogsauce]

DNA testing will also be difficult where families have perished - how would you know which child is which if a link to familial DNA is all you have to go on? So far beyond grim, it's hard to even think how someone has to deal with this as a procedural method without being totally overwhelmed by the bleakness of it all.

 

[Dogsauce]

Nope, KCTMO is a Tory ALMO, not a quango.

The figure is 500+. 20,000 is the reduction nationally.

Barwell, chipmunk faced fuck though he is, was not Minister for Housing 4 years ago. He's held the job for a year and a half.

The actual figure for Tory landlords who voted against, is 70.


You do the cause no favours by not fact-checking stuff before you post it.

Two further things pk -

* was Barwell given a report specifically identifying potential problems with Grenfell, or something more general about risks in high rise blocks? I've seen no mention of him being given a report on this block - evidence needed or it just sounds like horseshit.

* The 'landlord bill' voted out by Tories related to private letting - not applicable to most of the tenants in Grenfell (didn't cover social housing) and little to do with fire safety. It's barely relevant here at all other than as a demonstration of the attitude towards tenants by this political party.

There's little point countering dishonest bullshit with more dishonest bullshit that can be demolished in seconds. Fake news all over the shop, it's undermining the credibility of what should be an essential campaign for justice and accountability.

 

[belboid]

Thanks. I meant the difference v a QUANGO, but the above is helpful too!

ALMO's are QUANGO's (of a specific type).

 

[Indeliblelink]

apologies if this has already been posted, a search of the thread didn't show anything
Inquiry. The Great British Housing Disaster (Adam Curtis, 1984) - 43 mins onwards mentions fire risks of cladding tower blocks

 

[squirrelp]

DNA testing will also be difficult where families have perished - how would you know which child is which if a link to familial DNA is all you have to go on? So far beyond grim, it's hard to even think how someone has to deal with this as a procedural method without being totally overwhelmed by the bleakness of it all.

You might find relatives of the different families, and then identify family members from DNA identification without knowing exactly who they were. It might be possible to match up an entire missing family in this way, without being able to individually link remains to the specific person.