Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[stethoscope]

If all you are going to do is state that they are in an impossible situation, then nothing will change. If these people will not act to chagne this situation then nothing will change. If that's the case then i'd rather they lost their job than a fire victim who's lost everything is left to starve by the state. Obviously I'd rather that didn't happen, but that will happen if all people do is make excuses for this system, and i'm afraid that includes those working within it. This also means that unions need to get more involved and help those people get out of impossible positions. This isn't easy, by any means, but the alternative I'm afraid is worse.

If you think assaulting frontline DWP workers is actually going to achieve and change anything, other than even more draconian and reactionary measures from the DWP and government protected by the police, and resulting in tougher attitudes to those needing help and support, then you're a fucking dick. A few weeks ago, you were arguing that only a vote for Labour would change anything.

Direct action has to be focused and aimed towards the government and power structures that underpin and create the systems, not other workers.

 

[belboid]

Don't engage in puerile gaslighting, engage with what I've said.

You really shouldn't use phrases you don't understand.

 

[LDC]

You have two choices:
Either you stand against the regime
Or it continues and this includes the sanctioning (because it WILL happen) of Grenfell survivors. Not to mention everyone else left to starve to death.

Bit you're either with us or against us that.

 

[Pickman's model]

You really shouldn't use phrases you don't understand.

tbh he shouldn't use phrases he does understand either

 

[Pickman's model]

Bit you're either with us or against us that.

who phd at home

 

[Orang Utan]

You're just stating the obvious, what's your point? What is it that you want to do here. You have two choices:
Either you stand against the regime
Or it continues and this includes the sanctioning (because it WILL happen) of Grenfell survivors. Not to mention everyone else left to starve to death.

If all you are going to do is state that they are in an impossible situation, then nothing will change. If these people will not act to chagne this situation then nothing will change. If that's the case then i'd rather they lost their job than a fire victim who's lost everything is left to starve by the state. Obviously I'd rather that didn't happen, but that will happen if all people do is make excuses for this system, and i'm afraid that includes those working within it. This also means that unions need to get more involved and help those people get out of impossible positions. This isn't easy, by any means, but the alternative I'm afraid is worse.

If all you can do in respoinse to that is simply insult me then you are contributing nothing. If anything that's the childish position.

Grenfell survivors will struggle with the DWP. This headline belies a less positive tone from the DWP and it's about time we stopped using this 'workers in an impossible situation' argument because it isn't working. Support them, collectives, do all that. But stop making excuses, people are dying. We know this. We've seen it. When someone from Grenfell gets sanctioned the excuse will be that "we were unable to correctly verify his identity, and so he could have been a fraudster". This is not good enough. If the DWP can relent (if) for this group (and rightly so), then that is clear proof the system shouldn't be this brutal.

Don't engage in puerile gaslighting, engage with what I've said.

You don't appear to understand what gaslighting is. Your posts have very little substance beyond puerile anarkidisms. Go away.

 

[Teaboy]

I don't understand the point you are making here.
Can you explain?

Yes. The funding for upgrades to thermal performance can be obtained from different sources meaning that a refurbishment like this can be heavily subsidised. Whereas ongoing general maintenance and internal works come out of the councils general budge (I'm generalising here a bit). The point being that there is money available for these sort of works where there might not be for general maintenance.

 

[butchersapron]

who phd - if you'd have come along to the Bristol and District Anti-Cuts Alliance meetings and got involved when i offered to help you do so you'd have met many frontline DWP staff who had been fighting to resist implementing the range of austerity measures. Many of them doing so from before any tory cuts. Then you may not have ended up making such daft posts - outlining 'positions' that were largely rejected by the resistance to welfare cuts - as long ago as the proposed 'three strikes and you're out' campaign against frontline staff of the early-mid 90s - as being counter-productive posturing with no understanding of the dynamics of class based organising.

If today is the day that you choose to do it and this the issue on which you choose to do it...then crack on. Sooner done, soonest over.

 

[Who PhD]

You really shouldn't use phrases you don't understand.

In what way have i shown that I don't understand gaslighting?

 

[Who PhD]

Bit you're either with us or against us that.

Unfortunately that's how i see the situation, and I've seen nothing that changes my mind. I don't like it, but there it is.

 

[Orang Utan]

In what way have i shown that I don't understand gaslighting?

what do you understand it to mean? cos from what you said to me, you seem to think it means contradicting someone

 

[Who PhD]

You don't appear to understand what gaslighting is. Your posts have very little substance beyond puerile anarkidisms. Go away.

Gaslighting is when you play on someone's insecurity, usually by means of making them think they are nuts. That's the extreme end, making people doubt their sanity. Here it's demonstrated by the choice to engage in childish putdowns, insinuating my thoughts on this issue are puerile or at best naive - without actually bothering to provide refutations and without being rude.

So yes, I do understand. Now why don't you provide a proper rebuttal to my comments instead of contributing nothing and trolling

 

[Orang Utan]

Gaslighting is when you play on someone's insecurity, usually by means of making them think they are nuts. That's the extreme end, making people doubt their sanity. Here it's demonstrated by the choice to engage in childish putdowns, insinuating my thoughts on this issue are puerile or at best naive - without actually bothering to provide refutations and without being rude.

So yes, I do understand. Now why don't you provide a proper rebuttal to my comments instead of contributing nothing and trolling

and now you don't understand what trolling is.

 

[maomao]

Can we not turn this thread into the Awesome Wells show please?

 

[Who PhD]

and now you don't understand what trolling is.

You've dodged two questions and only responded to engage in attacking the person, not their argument. You answered my question about gaslighting with another question. You're also derailing the thread by doing so. I made a legit point and you've not once responded to it choosing in turn to go after me. Either respond to the point I made and we can have a proper discussion, particularly given that this isn't a thread where this kind of shitposting is appropriate at all, or I'll just ignore you. Your choice, flower.

 

[belboid]

In what way have i shown that I don't understand gaslighting?

Because it isn't just about being a bit rude. Where have you been made to question your memory of events you took part in?

 

[chilango]

who phd - if you'd have come along to the Bristol and District Anti-Cuts Alliance meetings and got involved when i offered to help you do so you'd have met many frontline DWP staff who had been fighting to resist implementing the range of austerity measures. Many of them doing so from before any tory cuts. Then you may not have ended up making such daft posts - outlining 'positions' that were largely rejected by the resistance to welfare cuts - as long ago as the proposed 'three strikes and you're out' campaign against frontline staff of the early-mid 90s - as being counter-productive posturing with no understanding of the dynamics of class based organising.

If today is the day that you choose to do it and this the issue on which you choose to do it...then crack on. Sooner done, soonest over.

There's also plenty of reading online that can be done about these struggles. Any point linking to it though?

 

[belboid]

Can we not turn this thread into the Awesome Wells show please?

Oh, really? Much is explained.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Can we not turn this thread into the Awesome Wells show please?

Is that who he is?

 

[Who PhD]

Because it isn't just about being a bit rude. Where have you been made to question your memory of events you took part in?

What part of my response wasn't clear for you?

 

[Orang Utan]

You've dodged two questions and only responded to engage in attacking the person, not their argument. You answered my question about gaslighting with another question. You're also derailing the thread by doing so. I made a legit point and you've not once responded to it choosing in turn to go after me. Either respond to the point I made and we can have a proper discussion, particularly given that this isn't a thread where this kind of shitposting is appropriate at all or I'll just ignore you. Your choice, flower.

what questions? all i've done is take issue with your unhelpful and childish comments

 

[Who PhD]

Is that who he is?

gaslighting, 101.

 

[belboid]

What part of my response wasn't clear for you?

What? It was perfectly clear. And it was perfectly bollocks. Gaslighting doesn't mean what you said it did.

 

[Treacle Toes]

gaslighting, 101.

Well is it you?

 

[Who PhD]

What? It was perfectly clear. And it was perfectly bollocks. Gaslighting doesn't mean what you said it did.

Do you think there's a prize to be won here? I made a point, address it or fuck off with this shit. What does this nonsense have to do with the point I made. Do you really think the DWP gives a toss about Grenfell survivors?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is that who he is?

he is 'bo' wells

 

[Who PhD]

Well is it you?

No.

 

[Pickman's model]

What part of my response wasn't clear for you?

yeh. are you volunteering to assault dwp staff?

 

[Orang Utan]

Do you think there's a prize to be won here? I made a point, address it or fuck off with this shit. What does this nonsense have to do with the point I made. Do you really think the DWP gives a toss about Grenfell survivors?

I think it's unwise to classify 'the DWP' as one entity as it is made up of lots of humans who do care and have compassion for the survivors. Most of them will be frontline workers who will do their best to help the survivors

 

[belboid]

Do you think there's a prize to be won here? I made a point, address it or fuck off with this shit. What does this nonsense have to do with the point I made. Do you really think the DWP gives a toss about Grenfell survivors?

I did address it. I made a specific point in reply to a specific one of yours. You are avoiding that response. I guess because you can't admit to using a word wrongly.

As to the DWP, lots of DWP workers - some of whom will probably have had friends/family, or even themselves in Grenfell - will give a fucking big toss.