Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Lord Camomile]

but what would the petition be demanding? there are so many issues here.
people are talking already anyway

Innit, they piss me off. They so often focus on one aspect and ignore wider ranging problems, making them easy to dismiss or resolve. And that's the problem sorted.

In this specific case, that the Grenfell survivors are housed in good quality accommodation that remains local to Grenfell. [edit: should they want to remain local. Some of them may want to get away from the scene of the tragedy]

Yes, that's one specific issue, but I don't think it's a zero sum game. You can have many lines of dispute, and that's actually kind of my point - people will focus on what happened to the dead and may well forget about the ongoing support needed for the living.

I'm not the biggest fan of petitions either, and I'm really not suggesting it would solve the problem on its own, just that it could be one tool of many and is a tool people are familiar with. And yes, one of my problems with petitions is that they're often very poorly written, which is exactly why I'm not doing it myself

 

[Artaxerxes]

Turning a bit ugly according to the Guardian

One volunteer, Sinead O’Hare, said the fire and loss of life had tapped into a deeper sense of resentment and alienation.

“People are angry about years of Tory policy of cutting corners and costs, and refusing to take responsibility. The interests of the Tory party are closely allied to the interests of business and private landlords,” she said.

People from other parts of London who are homeless and hungry had started turning up in the area hoping for food and other necessities, she said.

The media is one target for resentment. “You press people didn’t come here when people were blogging about the danger. You only come when people are dead,” said Calvin Benson, who was carrying a handmade sign saying: “I am not a photo opportunity.”

“You pick and choose your stories. The blogs have been active for years but no one was interested.”

Several photographers and camera operators have been pushed, jabbed and shouted at as anger and tension have overtaken initial shock at the fire.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Maybe the survivors will be treated well housed locally and provided with all sorts of help, very publically, by the government, and if so great, but that will in no way distract from what has happened.

Central government, GLA and local council have already missed their window for a proper response to this.

 

[J Ed]

Turning a bit ugly according to the Guardian

Who can blame them? All of this is true, it makes me feel so angry. It should never have got anywhere near this obviously foreseeable point.

 

[Tony_LeaS]

Turning a bit ugly according to the Guardian

I'm not surprised either, a community are needing to rebuild and they've probably got press all over the place getting cameras in their faces. Not a pretty situation, also people are angry now. Press might wanna back off from at least the local vicinity if they wanna report this.

 

[teuchter]

you've contributed 23 posts to this thread, not one of which shows any empathy or sympathy with the dead or concern with the people who've lost everything, and a far greater concern with riling people here.

Playing that card to avoid defending the fact that you're spouting ill-informed nonsense isn't very imaginative, and a bit low.

It goes without saying that what's happened to the people involved is terrible. I don't need to proclaim my feelings about that on the internet and it woudn't help anyone affected.

 

[J Ed]

They ignored this just like they ignored the disgraceful treatment of disabled and unemployed.

 

[Florkleshnort]

“People are angry about years of Tory policy of cutting corners and costs, and refusing to take responsibility. The interests of the Tory party are closely allied to the interests of business and private landlords,” she said.

So, a genuine question because I have been pretty ignorant..

A lot of people are blaming the Tories. Were things any better under Blair? Have things really gotten significantly worse since the conservatives took power 7 years ago?

 

[Teaboy]

You have a choice; rainscreen, or some other external insulation solution... The latter probably being render over insulation. Rainscreen has advantages in wet/damp climates (apparently). It might also look a bit better... But basically you're looking at two widely used systems that are considered safe. And, as specified in the planning report, probably are safe. But then it has to go out to tender, and the bills start to look ugly.

Yes, this point needs to be made. Unless the system being quoted in the press was not used and a different one substituted last minute then there has been no corners cut with regard to the cladding. Are there systems which have a better fire rating? Yes, but this system was fully tested, approved and had a decent fire rating performance. We are left with a range of possibilities:

• Bad installation by the contractor
• Bad design by the architect, possibly something to do with the nature of the existing building (fluted concrete)
• A test regime which is wholly inadequate (this would have massive consequences)
• Something else entirely. Something happening unseen inside the building and the cladding burning being the external manifestation seen by eye witnesses. Its worth bearing in mind that if the fire was that intense inside the cladding would have failed regardless what it was made of

My suspicion is that its going to be a combination of all of the above combined with the lack of basic fire stopping and prevention measures inside. What I absolutely do not believe is that the architect, contractor and sub-contractor all knowingly used an inferior and dangerous product.

 

[brogdale]

Who can blame them? All of this is true, it makes me feel so angry. It should never have got anywhere near this obviously foreseeable point.

A whole community incinerated in the Kensington sky is a pretty ugly notion that, in due course, deserves an 'ugly' reaction.

 

[hash tag]

Talking of press intrusion I see the BBC has a picture showing a fire still burning inside a burnt out flat....how? why?
The press intrusion on the morning of the fire was pretty horrible; interviews with bystanders who were in tears, to be followed by victims in tears...
let them get on with it in private. The last thing they need is their space being invaded by cameras and microphones!
Of course, they have nowhere to hide from this, the poor bastards are still looking for loved ones and have just minutes earlier been made homeless.

 

[Teaboy]

So, a genuine question because I have been pretty ignorant..

A lot of people are blaming the Tories. Were things any better under Blair? Have things really gotten significantly worse since the conservatives took power 7 years ago?

Obviously things were crap under Blair but the savage cuts to local authorities are a recent thing. The housing crisis has deepened and worsened significantly.

 

[Pickman's model]

A whole community incinerated in the Kensington sky is a pretty ugly notion that, in due course, deserves an 'ugly' reaction.

the grenfell action group were right - no one took heed of their warnings before the fire. and now local, regional and indeed national government don't seem to have a clue about how to properly proceed. their idea seems to be to divide and disperse the residents among hotels and so on rather than keep friends and neighbours together. pisspoor.

 

[scifisam]

I thought this was interesting, from another board about the Melbourne fire:

In the Melbourne fire, it was found that the cladding was made by a Chinese company with non-compliant poly cores. They *claimed* it was compliant, but there was no check or balance to call them on their bullshit. The contractor, faced with a chioce of materials, chose the cheapest cladding making code-compliant claims. That covered the building in fuel. Because mineral fibre cores and poly cores are very hard to tell apart without testing, there was no cue to the building inspectors.

So - Contractor and building inspectors acted in good faith, and still set up a fire trap destined to kill. I think it will come out that this is a similar case.

There needs to be certification testing of any material making code compliance claims.

Though this doesn't explain everything because in that fire and similar ones the fire seems to spread upwards but not that much to the sides, and here it seems to have gone sideways too.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Blimey, there's still fires breaking out in the block!

On a positive note, our charity quiz tonight has switched to supporting the victims here, having promised our chosen charity this month that they will benefit from our July one instead.

The numbers booked have gone from the usual 30+ to over 70 so far, the venue that normally takes £5 out of the £10 entry fee for the buffet is donating their share this time. We normally raffle a bottle of wine & make around an extra £100 on that, instead we are having a auction tonight.

A few of us have hit the phones, we have over £2500 worth of stuff donated so far, event tickets/meals out/beauty treatments/free MOT & service/6-months free gym membership, etc., etc - and still expecting more in the next couple hours.

 

[not-bono-ever]

The government were in stasis for the first 24 hours. Still are. in fact, they have made no statement or outside the bland and non committal, certainly I am not hearing anything about committed and organised action on the ground - it seems the community is pulling together on this- and that is fantastic - but what kind of precedent does this set ? is it now the default position to keep schtum for the first 48 hours and wait for charity and someone else to fill the gaps?

This isn't just shit and pathetic, this is shit, pathetic, strategically criminal and offensively incompetent. Call yourself a Christian May? I am seeing lots of Christian ( and other) values being displayed from the people on the ground, but nothing from you, you are a fucking cunt.

Sorry/ had to get that one out

 

[not-bono-ever]

oh....I am angry again, hey ho, another night drinking myself to sleep

 

[bimble]

"Peter Vanezis, professor of forensic medical sciences at Barts and the london, who helped identify the final victim of the 1987 King’s Cross fire, said that identifying those who died would be likely to take months.'
Months.
unbearable.

 

[hash tag]

Fuck her, fuck her useless govt. Theresa May was 's***', Grenfell Tower resident tells Jeremy Corbyn after PM refused to meet survivors

She is a robot; heartless, without soul, a disaster

"The Prime Minister carried out a private visit of the scene and spoke with emergency service crews but reportedly refused to meet any survivors of the tragedy and blocked media access."

 

[hash tag]

 

[Florkleshnort]

Obviously things were crap under Blair but the savage cuts to local authorities are a recent thing. The housing crisis has deepened and worsened significantly.

Is there anywhere I can see numbers supporting this?

 

[Teaboy]

I thought this was interesting, from another board about the Melbourne fire:

In the Melbourne fire, it was found that the cladding was made by a Chinese company with non-compliant poly cores. They *claimed* it was compliant, but there was no check or balance to call them on their bullshit. The contractor, faced with a chioce of materials, chose the cheapest cladding making code-compliant claims. That covered the building in fuel. Because mineral fibre cores and poly cores are very hard to tell apart without testing, there was no cue to the building inspectors.

So - Contractor and building inspectors acted in good faith, and still set up a fire trap destined to kill. I think it will come out that this is a similar case.

There needs to be certification testing of any material making code compliance claims.

Though this doesn't explain everything because in that fire and similar ones the fire seems to spread upwards but not that much to the sides, and here it seems to have gone sideways too.

That should never happen in the UK. Changing the specification to some imported Chinese stuff with questionable testing data? That's not acting in good faith at all, that's dereliction of duty and quite probably criminal.

There is a HEN (harmonized European norm) for testing regimes. If the product is to be fully certified it has to have been tested rigorously - you can't just import some stuff you found on the internet, well you can but its against every rule in the book.

The Reynabond system is a French system and is fully tested and certified. It would be extraordinary if it has been substituted last minute for something else.

 

[Orang Utan]

Obviously things were crap under Blair but the savage cuts to local authorities are a recent thing. The housing crisis has deepened and worsened significantly.

Plus the Tories deregulation addiction

 

[Teaboy]

Is there anywhere I can see numbers supporting this?

Yes.

 

[teuchter]

There needs to be certification testing of any material making code compliance claims.

Building materials do go through certification testing, and in theory, anyone specifying any critical material should check that the claims are supported by a valid certificate. In practice, of course, there are thousands of different product used in any project, and no architect or contractor calls up every single manufacturer, asks for their certificates and cross-checks them with the certifying authorities.

In reality, the system tends to rely on suppliers and others carrying out these checks. If I'm a builder then it's reasonable for me to assume that if Travis Perkins sells me something, I can trust that the relevant checks have been done. If big contractor goes to an unknown chinese manufacturer though, then most would say it would be their responsibility to check that claims were backed up by proper testing.

 

[not-bono-ever]

That should never happen in the UK. Changing the specification to some imported Chinese stuff with questionable testing data? That's not acting in good faith at all, that's dereliction of duty and quite probably criminal.

There is a HEN (harmonized European norm) for testing regimes. If the product is to be fully certified it has to have been tested rigorously - you can't just import some stuff you found on the internet, well you can but its against every rule in the book.

The Reynabond system is a French system and is fully tested and certified. It would be extraordinary if it has been substituted last minute for something else.

it is not beyond the realms of possibility that id this is indeed an industry standard and highly recognised product, it could be faked and slipped into the supply chain by unscrupulous middle middle men - is they do it for Boeing bits and access the chain, they can do it with building materials

 

[hash tag]

Mad and full of tears...Grenfell Action Group

 

[ViolentPanda]

Khan has also announced this, saying it will be an independent inquiry. Though, in the past public inquiries haven't appeared to be that independent, as they tend to be led by members of the upper house.

Most usually law lords, who can be trusted to support The Establishment.

 

[Teaboy]

it is not beyond the realms of possibility that id this is indeed an industry standard and highly recognised product, it could be faked and slipped into the supply chain by unscrupulous middle middle men - is they do it for Boeing bits and access the chain, they can do it with building materials

Well it is a possibility. Cladding is a product which is purchased from a distributor / merchant / fabricator. These companies are all pretty reputable in a construction sort of way. That being said they may have found the product being advertised cheaply by a new, previously unheard of merchant.......

I'd still be surprised if this is the case though. Its quite easy to substitute a lot of products in construction because they end up underground, buried in concrete, hidden in the roof etc. But cladding is how the building looks, people will notice. The architect spends a lot of time choosing the product and the colour scheme etc. The colour scheme was not uniform on this project so a lot of work had gone into the facade design.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Councils beig councils will always take the bottom price for doing any work, regardless of how shoddy the workmen/materials might be. This is their obligation to the council tax payers. It's all about value for money.
A complication these days is that many of the properties in these blocks are in private ownership, making it more complicated to demolish the block and start again, leaving the alternative of tarting the place up. On the cheap.

Councils are supposed to award contracts based on best value, which DOESN'T necessarily mean "bottom price", if your procurement people are prepared to put in the work and do a thorough CBA on each tender, but often does if - like many local authorities - you've made your senior staff redundant, and the people doing the procurement are basically junior staff with new job titles and bigger responsibilities, whose main ambition is to just not fuck up.