Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Sasaferrato]

And this is why you want to stop protests? Why do you think the state - which you say is led by unprincipled bounders - should lay down the costs of demonstrations and force those affected by their actions into destitution?

Name one protest that achieved anything.

 

[Smangus]

poll tax riots

 

[Pickman's model]

Name one protest that achieved anything.

carnival against capitalism, 18.6.99

 

[Sasaferrato]

carnival against capitalism, 18.6.99

What specifically did it achieve?

 

[Pickman's model]

What specifically did it achieve?

a good time was had by (almost) all - is that such a little thing?

 

[Sasaferrato]

a good time was had by (almost) all - is that such a little thing?

So, the honest answer is nothing.

Just the same as all the other disruptive actions, which impinge heavily on people who don't give a fuck about whichever 'cause' has instigated the march.

 

[Pickman's model]

So, the honest answer is nothing.

Just the same as all the other disruptive actions, which impinge heavily on people who don't give a fuck about whichever 'cause' has instigated the march.

in other words the uppity blacks and women etc ought to be grateful for what they've got and not protest about racism or sexism and so on. many of the basic things we take for granted in society, eg the eight hour day, paid holiday, even the paltry right to vote every few years - all products of protest. a brief period of mild inconvenience isn't i think too much to put up with.

 

[Smangus]

So, the honest answer is nothing.

Just the same as all the other disruptive actions, which impinge heavily on people who don't give a fuck about whichever 'cause' has instigated the march.

Poll tax riots (again)

 

[belboid]

Name one protest that achieved anything.

Storming of the bastille. The long March. Some Eastern European demos, late ‘89. Poll tax. George floyd.

 

[Badgers]

How did women get the vote?

 

[Pickman's model]

How did women get the vote?

they asked politely and then lloyd george graciously handed it to them in 1918, at least for women over 30, instead of paying women for all the work they'd done during the war

 

[DotCommunist]

they asked politely and then lloyd george graciously handed it to them in 1918, at least for women over 30, instead of paying women for all the work they'd done during the war

wasn't there a property qualification as well?

 

[Pickman's model]

wasn't there a property qualification as well?

you are as ever right: in 1918 lloyd george kindly permitted women aged over 30 who resided in the constituency or occupied land or premises with a rateable value above £5, or whose husbands did to put an x on a ballot paper

 

[Badgers]

they asked politely and then lloyd george graciously handed it to them in 1918, at least for women over 30, instead of paying women for all the work they'd done during the war

I thought the men of the time had a change of heart and apologised?

 

[Pickman's model]

I thought the men of the time had a change of heart and apologised?

they did and looked to the prime minister of the day to make it all ok

 

[belboid]

How did women get the vote?

A particularly well written letter to The Times

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I dare say the new policing bill will make it easier to bring this sort of action to a sudden stop.

These are the same fucking muppets who demand more in state support, totally tin-eared to the amount of state resource their actions consume.

You're a mean-spirited, begrudging, authoritarian cunt. What a surprise

 

[Pickman's model]

You're a mean-spirited, begrudging, authoritarian cunt. What a surprise

it's taken you a year and a half to work that out

 

[Sasaferrato]

You're a mean-spirited, begrudging, authoritarian cunt. What a surprise

You though, are an antisocial arsehole who is prepared to disrupt people's lives, and squander huge resource to feed your ego.

 

[hitmouse]

Name one protest that achieved anything.

Balfour Beatty and NG Bailey dropping their plans to use unskilled labour to carry out electrical work after protests from rank and file construction workers, for a start. See also BESNA, Frank Morris reinstated on Crossrail, and various others, just talking about protests by UK construction workers within the last decade or so.

 

[hitmouse]

That protest in Bristol that achieved someone doing the sickest skate trick of all time:

 

[Sasaferrato]

That protest in Bristol that achieved someone doing the sickest skate trick of all time:
View attachment 273662

My grandson used to skateboard, some of the things he and his friends did were terrifying.

Our skatepark here in Livingston was world famous at one point.

Skate expectations: Superstar Tony Hawk says historic West Lothian park could become a world-leading attraction - The Sunday Post

The world’s most famous skateboarder has backed calls for a historic West Lothian skate park to be returned to its former glory as one of the best in the world.

www.sundaypost.com

 

[AmateurAgitator]

You though, are an antisocial arsehole who is prepared to disrupt people's lives, and squander huge resource to feed your ego.

Unlike you I'm the opposite of anti-social. Resources are already squandered, but in a way that tory pricks like you are happy for them to be, and they are squandered in that way much more than the way you claim they are 'by protesters'. Knobhead.

 

[hitmouse]

I have no objection to people protesting, but they should have to pay the full policing cost up front.

I'm actually in favour of this idea, come to think of it. "What, do you mean no-one remembered to pay the police fee? So the cops won't be turning up now? Bugger, what a shame."

 

[Lurdan]

Here's this week's Inside Housing Grenfell Diary (archived)
Grenfell Tower Inquiry diary week 39: ‘What you said there was a grotesque understatement’ -
Working links to their daily reports at the bottom of the page.

Janice Wray the 'TMO's health and safety and facilities manager finished her five and a bit days of evidence. Two Fire Brigade officers gave evidence about the LFB's concerns about the TMOs performance regarding fire safety before the fire. And two of the 'TMO's caretakers gave evidence about the reality of their role in this area, which unsurprisingly, rather than the significant contribution described by their managers, actually involved staff cuts and workloads increased, to the point that capacity was reduced.

"So you cover the really important parts and hope, and that was it. That’s all you can do. What can you do?”

Next week two more Fire Brigade officers, followed by Barbara Matthews, the 'TMO's executive director of financial services and ICT, and then the return of it's chief executive Robert Black.

 

[Lurdan]

This week's Inside Housing Grenfell Diary (archived)
Grenfell Tower Inquiry diary week 40: ‘An exercise in concealment and half truth’
Links from it should be working.

 

[Lurdan]

Catching up a bit, here are transcripts of the last three BBC podcasts. Week 38 (Janice Wray), Week 39 (TMO and London Fire Brigade) and last week, Week 40 (TMO's Senior Management).

Next week Robert Black the CEO of the 'TMO' is back on Monday. On Tuesday, Graham Webb the managing director of the TMO's wholly owned repairs company, Repairs Direct.

On Wednesday the Inquiry begins hearings covering it's third topic: the active and passive fire safety systems in Grenfell Tower. The Inquiry intends dealing with :

• Gas works at the tower, including work to replace one of the main risers;
• The smoke control system (including Building Control approval of that system);
• The TMO’s maintenance regime;
• Fire doors (especially flat entrance doors); and
• Lifts.

It's beginning with the smoke control system. First, on Wednesday, opening statements from two of the groups of Bereaved Survivors and Residents; from PSB, the company responsible for maintaining the system; and from the Fire Brigades Union. Then on Thursday, evidence from Paul Hanson, a building control surveyor for RBKC who specifically deals with means of escape under the fire regulations.

For each of these systems opening statements will be followed by evidence hearings and then by the Inquiry's expert witnesses. For the smoke control system expert reports have been produced by Barbara Lane and Beryl Menzies. (For more details of this module of the Inquiry see here and here).

 

[Lurdan]

This week's Inside Housing Grenfell Diary (archived)
Grenfell Tower Inquiry diary week 41: ‘We should do nothing. This is not the sort of website we should be responding to’

Their daily reports for those who want them

Spoiler: Links

21.06.28 - KCTMO chief denies trying to ‘silence’ Grenfell councillor who raised refurbishment concerns
21.06.29 - Grenfell contractors accused of ‘selective’ customer satisfaction data collection
21.06.30 - Dampers for Grenfell smoke system were ‘lowest possible standard’, inquiry hears
21.07.01 - Budget cuts led sign-off on insufficient smoke control system in Grenfell Tower, inquiry hears

As mentioned above, on Wednesday the Inquiry started hearings devoted to the issue of the smoke control system in the tower. Specifically the new system which was installed during the refurbishment, and which failed on the night of the fire. (The Inquiry has already heard evidence about the 'TMO's failure to maintain the existing system).

Written opening statements have been supplied by a number of the corporates involved as well as by BSR (Bereaved Survivors and Relatives) Team 1, Team 2 and the Fire Brigades Union. The latter also gave oral opening statements - transcripts here: BSR Team 2, BSR Team 1 and the FBU.

PSB who designed the new system also gave a combative opening statement in which they rejected the findings of the expert report by Barbara Lane (this won't be published until she gives evidence about it). However the impact of their oral opening was somewhat undercut by following immediately after the opening by Stephanie Barwise for BSR Team 1 which had just given their written statement a good kicking.

On Thursday Paul Hanson of RBKC building control gave evidence. He described how RBKC had reduced the size of the building control team which considered issues of means of escape from five to three and then to one person. And had got rid of building control's in-house mechanical and engineering surveyor just before the Grenfell refurbishment.

This was the first job we’d ever done without a mechanical and ventilation engineer.

This was especially unfortunate given that the system installed in Grenfell Tower when it was built (1972-4) had been in his words 'experimental'. The task both of the designers of the new system and of building control was made more challenging because RBKC had failed to retain any records of it.

We had a system in this building where it was designed to some kind of idea and we were trying to understand how it worked. I don’t think I’ve ever had a job where that has ever been the case before (...)

RBKC's building control failings are of course part of a nationwide pattern of cuts and changes. A couple of background pieces from Inside Housing:

From April this year - The disappearing act: cuts to building control professionals and what they mean for building safety and a long article back in 2019 - Who’s been signing off Grenfell-style cladding?

edited to correct misspelling.

 

[Lurdan]

The transcript of this weeks BBC podcast is here.

IMO this does an exceptional job of explaining the issues relating to the smoke control system, and the disagreements over it between the Inquiry's own expert witnesses, as well as the disagreements the system's designers and RBKC building control have with aspects of Barbara Lane's expert report.

Next week evidence from:

• PSB, the company which designed the upgraded system, and then tested, commissioned and issued the compliance certificate for it;
• Gilberts, the company who manufactured the dampers used;
• Max Fordham, the building services engineering company who advised the TMO;
• and from JS Wright, the mechanical and electrical sub-contractor for the refurbishment, who carried out the upgrade work, and employed PSB.

 

[Lurdan]

This week's Inside Housing Grenfell Diary (archived)
Grenfell Tower Inquiry diary week 42: ‘They would leak as much as they leaked. They were what they were’
working links to the daily reports at the bottom of the page.

There was a procedural hearing this week in the legal action, involving 1130 separate claims made on behalf of 800 bereaved and survivors, and 140 firefighters and police officers.

The defendants include the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (RBKC), which was the landlord of Grenfell Tower; Rydon, the lead contractor for the refurbishment; and Arconic and Celotex, the companies that supplied the combustible cladding panels and insulation respectively. Architecture firm Studio E; cladding sub-contractor Harley Facades; risk assessor Carl Stokes; fire engineers Exova; and building manager Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO) are also listed as defendants. The London Fire Commissioner and the Metropolitan Police are also listed as defendants, as they are facing claims from their employees, who were left traumatised by the events of the night.

Counsel for RBKC and the TMO asked the Court to put the proceedings on hold to allow time for negotiations over a possible settlement, via. an alternative dispute resolution process overseen by a retired Court of Appeal judge. A number of the claimants opposed this and said they wouldn't negotiate until RBKC and the TMO admitted liability. However the Court agreed to stay proceedings for nine months. (This will, of course, also allow for further evidence to emerge at the Inquiry. This module is now likely to conclude in September after the summer break).

Details (including a lot of links):
Grenfell victims set for first hearing in legal action against corporates and council
Grenfell victims’ civil case paused for settlement negotiations