Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Celyn]

Well yes that's why I'm curious the article gives the impression that on the night of the fire there were people coming out of the building and melting into the darkness like ghosts which is possible but seems a bit far fetched to me. There would be panic and confusion, many went to the hospital,a load more would have just gone along with the crowd and ended up in the leisure centre with the others. Amongst all these people was there anyone who's legal (let's not get into debates over moral) right to be there was in anyway questionable.
It would take remarkable presence of mind for someone to be woken in the middle of night, stagger downstairs throgh the smoke and fire struggling to breathe and then get outside and think to themselves
"Damn the gig is up I had better disappear"
That why's I am curious if there are any such people or is this article and the quotes in it is actually fact based or some journo and or politician fishing for a bite.

It would take remarkable presence of mind for someone to be woken in the middle of night, stagger downstairs throgh the smoke and fire struggling to breathe and then get outside and think to themselves
"Damn the gig is up I had better disappear"...

What if you are alive, but very very extremely accustomed to thinking "... I had better disappear"? Given that, if "illegal" person, you would be damn used to things going badly for you?

What if the whole fire and smoke "gig" is one that you have seen rather too often before?

 

[BemusedbyLife]

Well, it's entirely possible that were people living in the block in this "illegal" or "undocumented" or whatever-the-hell-preferred-word situation.

You and your family could be living in the Grenfell block, meet someone in a desperately homeless situation, invite said person to come and crash in your place - living room sofa or a sleeping bag on the floor, whatever.

"

I think your "might be" and "possibly" be actually does mean that some serious thought must be given to that fact that it is very likely that there were were some people living there about whom the council did not know.

People WILL at times, have friends/family to stay for a long time, and yeah, some of them might be "illegal immigrants" or students who have overstayed visa etc.

I didn't think of informing council/Housing Association when I took my brother in to stay for a while. Nor did he, at a later time, notify them that Nigerian friend, having finished his studies, would stay in his flat for a while.

Anyone "illegal" and surviving through all that horrible hellish fire and terror ... oh let them recover and do not terrify them further.

They could indeed or there might be 10 of them packed into a 1 bed flat rented out by a leaseholder knowingly or otherwise, I'm not curious how they ended up there I can imagine loads of scenarios for myself.
What I'm wondering is whether there actually were. As far as I know none of the known survivors have been harassed or arrested by the authorities about their immigration status and given the general insentivity of how things have been handled since the fire, I'm sure they would have been so if there were any such people they all died or disappeared since none are apparently among the injured.
I personally incline to the belief that there weren't any, the rantings of the Fail notwithstanding the streets of the capital are not heaving with the desperate and dispossessed of the world stealing and scaring old ladies.
There were ony about 500 people in this one building in a city of over 10 million so the odds that some might be illegal migrants has got to be actually quite low.

 

[Celyn]

Oops. I think I posted two posts that might as well have been one, sorry, computer muddles.

 

[Celyn]

They could indeed or there might be 10 of them packed into a 1 bed flat rented out by a leaseholder knowingly or otherwise, I'm not curious how they ended up there I can imagine loads of scenarios for myself.
What I'm wondering is whether there actually were. As far as I know none of the known survivors have been harassed or arrested by the authorities about their immigration status and given the general insentivity of how things have been handled since the fire, I'm sure they would have been so if there were any such people they all died or disappeared since none are apparently among the injured.
I personally incline to the belief that there weren't any, the rantings of the Fail notwithstanding the streets of the capital are not heaving with the desperate and dispossessed of the world stealing and scaring old ladies.
There were ony about 500 people in this one building in a city of over 10 million so the odds that some might be illegal migrants has got to be actually quite low.

All the better, then. If there were only one or two people in this situation, surely some clemency in regards to the immigration thing is in order?

I personally incline to the belief that there weren't any, the rantings of the Fail notwithstanding the streets of the capital are not heaving with the desperate and dispossessed of the world stealing and scaring old ladies.

Some of the dispossessed and desperate might not be "stealing and scaring old ladies" but, in fact living on the sofa or floor of friends, and given that the friends would also share food, therefore no need to go "scaring old ladies".

 

[BemusedbyLife]

All the better, then. If there were only one or two people in this situation, surely some clemency in regards to the immigration thing is in order?



Some of the dispossessed and desperate might not be "stealing and scaring old ladies" but, in fact living on the sofa or floor of friends, and given that the friends would also share food, therefore no need to go "scaring old ladies".

If there is indeed such an individual then a case for clemency could be made of course, appeals have been granted on many things, I think the Fail holds to the opinion that the mere existence of foreigners is ground to be scared.

 

[Celyn]

... the streets of the capital are not heaving with the desperate and dispossessed of the world stealing and scaring old ladies ...

I feel ashamed and worried that I had failed to notice this other crime.

STEALING old ladies! That is really not on! Who has been stealing these old ladies? This must be stopped.

 

[Celyn]

If there is indeed such an individual then a case for clemency could be made of course, appeals have been granted on many things, I think the Fail holds to the opinion that the mere existence of foreigners is ground to be scared.

Oh. I see. You do not hold to that opinion, then?
OK.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

Oh. I see. You do not hold to that opinion, then?
OK.

my father is white, my mother is brown (but not one of the scary ones) so no I'm not a fan of the Daily Fail

 

[maomao]

There were ony about 500 people in this one building in a city of over 10 million so the odds that some might be illegal migrants has got to be actually quite low.

Don't be silly. Not all places have equal chances of having illegal immigrants in them. The point is that illegal sublets in the upper floors of tower blocks is exactly where you tend to find people of unclear immigration statuses for exactly the same reasons that authorities require finding it so hard to say how many people were in the building.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

Don't be silly. Not all places have equal chances of having illegal immigrants in them. The point is that illegal sublets in the upper floors of tower blocks is exactly where you tend to find people of unclear immigration statuses for exactly the same reasons that authorities require finding it so hard to say how many people were in the building.

OK I have no reason to doubt you but why would that be so? why are upper floors more likely than lower ones or houses?

 

[maomao]

OK I have no reason to doubt you but why would that be so? why are upper floors more likely than lower ones or houses?

Because they are less desirable. For the same reasons there are more illegal immigrants in Ilford than Richmond.

 

[David Clapson]

That seems logical to me. A legitimate tenant moves out, they get a dodgy letting agent to find some tenants. The people most likely to pay top dollar despite the height and the unreliable lifts are the ones with the fewest other options, i.e. people who came on a student visa but overstayed, etc.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

That seems logical to me. A legitimate tenant moves out, they get a dodgy letting agent to find some tenants. The people most likely to pay top dollar despite the height and the unreliable lifts are the ones with the fewest other options, i.e. people who came on a student visa but overstayed, etc.

All fair points perhaps I was wrong and the reason there are no illegal migrants amongst the injured is because indeed they are all or mostly dead and human tragedies aside it will be vey difficult to identify them, this may therefore be the answer to the question I first posed.

 

[Celyn]

my father is white, my mother is brown (but not one of the scary ones) so no I'm not a fan of the Daily Fail

OK, I did not think you were a fan of such things but it was a bit confusing.

 

[Celyn]

Don't be silly. Not all places have equal chances of having illegal immigrants in them. The point is that illegal sublets in the upper floors of tower blocks is exactly where you tend to find people of unclear immigration statuses for exactly the same reasons that authorities require finding it so hard to say how many people were in the building.

Nope, sorry, not understanding this. It might chime with your experience of living in the high floors of council tower blocks, maomao, but not with mine.

 

[Anju]

You feel all that on the back of one facebook post?

Also, I think you need to spell out just what you think he is making up? could there be no other reason for this inconsistency?

Here is his post again to aid you:



Seems to me you came at this with a dislike of him and are making some very heavy judgements based on not very much at all. Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps you know a lot about him and have simply yet to say.

I had never heard of him before reading his Facebook post.

My first reaction was positive, more so when I read the article he referred to and thought the Telegraph had changed their story in response to the post.

When it appeared that he had made a couple of totally false statements I realised he was just another hijacker.

Nothing about the actual inquiry was covered, just a load of self indulgent self congratulation about taking on the media and establishment.

Putting a more negative and false spin on the article can't be helping anyone other than a bit of ego massaging for the poster.


I doubt the residents want to embark on any kind of battle. They need an inquest, as open as possible, a time frame, with their own team to find and question expert witnesses, of which there seem to be a lot who are willing to tell the truth, good lawyers and some funding.

They don't need incompetent or dishonest, can't tell which the guy is, people who consciously or not will hijack their recovery and chance for finding some answers and eventually if possible peace.

 

[not-bono-ever]

There were ony about 500 people in this one building in a city of over 10 million so the odds that some might be illegal migrants has got to be actually quite low.

I think the % for this block would be significantly higher than the *average* for London all things considered. This wasnt exactly Luxury urban loft living for well Heeled oligarchs - it was W/C block in a densley populated area

 

[Kate Sharpley]

Max Baginski on the 1911 Triangle Shirtwaist Company fire.

"War or peace – the slaughter continues, for the character of capitalist society is so inexorably murderous that no amount of moralizing can mitigate it.

"Horrified we witness the carnival of death, fain to believe that these catastrophes are “accidental,” exceptional, while in reality the destruction of human life, industrial murder because of greed and inhumanity, is an established institution. In a society where profit is paramount and the fate of the toilers a negligible quantity, what other result can be expected than the most cynical indifference to the lives of the workingmen.

"The hundred and forty-five victims of the fire at the shirtwaist factory of Blanck & Harris, in Washington Square, New York, have been murdered by capitalism. The helpers and executioners in the massacre were the owners of the scab shop, the officials of the public safety department, the administration of the City of New York, and the government and legislature at Albany. These are the guilty. But as they control the machinery of “justice,” they will acquit themselves. Within a few weeks the terrible crime will be all but forgotten and – the business of murder will continue."

The rest is up at Everlasting Murder
[The response to the fire was a milestone. See among other things Remember the Triangle Fire Coalition
Baginski's call to 'abolish the industrial system of wholesale slaughter and exploitation' not yet redundant.]

 

[Cid]

C4 article from 2012 about figures from the Audit Commission at the time says London tenancy fraud rates were at 4-6%. So that range might be a useful starting point. The article doesn't cite the 4-6%, it may be in the Protecting the public purse report, but I don't have time to dig around that. As far as I could tell on a very brief look at a later document it focused on detection rates (which were more like 0.5%), though they must be comparing that against an estimate of total rates.

Then obviously there's the problem of estimating what percentage of those are in the country illegally, which is probably nigh on impossible. It does tell us that potentially 4-6% of those affected are unrecorded, and - for survivors - unlikely to come forward for assistance... Whether in the country illegally or not.

 

[David Clapson]

At last, some detail about something which I thought had been ignored!

It also occurred to me that KCTMO, as a profit-oriented business, would be even less likely to care about illegal sublets than the 'public servants' at RBK&C.

 

[not-bono-ever]

C4 article from 2012 about figures from the Audit Commission at the time says London tenancy fraud rates were at 4-6%. So that range might be a useful starting point. The article doesn't cite the 4-6%, it may be in the Protecting the public purse report, but I don't have time to dig around that. As far as I could tell on a very brief look at a later document it focused on detection rates (which were more like 0.5%), though they must be comparing that against an estimate of total rates.

Then obviously there's the problem of estimating what percentage of those are in the country illegally, which is probably nigh on impossible. It does tell us that potentially 4-6% of those affected are unrecorded, and - for survivors - unlikely to come forward for assistance... Whether in the country illegally or not.

I am going to Google this now, but I know in Southwark when they did an audit of a block a year or two ago, the majority of the tenants were subletters. Need to find where I read this obvs.....

 

[sheothebudworths]

I am going to Google this now, but I know in Southwark when they did an audit of a block a year or two ago, the majority of the tenants were subletters. Need to find where I read this obvs.....

Out of interest, what was the purpose of the audit?

 

[not-bono-ever]

i dunno - cannot find where i read it. apols

 

[David Clapson]

Check out this Feb 2014 Southwark press release. Near the end it says they have recovered 480 sublet properties since April 2012 Seven housing fraudsters brought to justice in one of country’s biggest cases | Southwark Council

 

[ViolentPanda]

How about a block Soviet, appointed by and answerable to the residents? No subletting, no profiteering, no queue jumping.

Plus revolutionary justice for would-be profiteers and sub-letters.

 

[ViolentPanda]

re above- half taking the piss, but most of the HA and Arms length vehicles used are unfit for the purpose nowadays

Many ALMOs were unfit-for-purpose from inception. They were just a way for councils to attempt to take repair borrowing off the books. When that didn't work, most of them turned out to be more expensive than the in-house operations they replaced.

 

[Lurdan]

The Guardian's account of Thursday's meeting between Sir Martin Moore-Bick and former Grenfell residents quotes Joe Delaney of the Grenfell Action Group. Moore-Bick “wasn’t jeered or booed. It was more scepticism. You could hear people sighing and tutting”.

Although many of the press reports of the meeting mention that there had previously been 'calls' for Moore-Bick to stand down or be replaced I haven't yet found one which states this was raised at the meeting itself.

Nor were any of the other 12 demands formulated by BMELAWYERSFORGRENFELL, which were reported in the Guardian as being demands made "by the survivors". I expressed some scepticism about how these demands were drawn up here.

I note that in addition to posting a handful of tweets BMELAWYERSFORGRENFELL has also set up a wordpress blog with a single post.

It consists of an advert for a forthcoming human rights seminar. Underneath it is this picture

The fair-minded part of me feels that this was probably just a sample picture which they failed to remove from the wordpress template employed. The cynical old scrote part of me can't help wondering if perhaps this might be evidence from a case where a restaurant was being sued for delivering the wrong lunch order to chambers.

Now I know nothing about the lawyers involved in BMELAWYERSFORGRENFELL. It's fair to say their activities to date don't inspire enormous confidence but they may be entirely 'well meaning', something that can't be said of all the lawyers who are involving themselves with Grenfell Towers.

From a Times story today :

The North Kensington Law Centre, which is helping more than 100 people who lived in the tower, said it was very concerned that families were vulnerable to exploitation.

“We heard quite a lot of reports of ambulance chasing in the aftermath of the fire — people were being told, ‘You need a lawyer asap, here’s a form, sign here,’ ” a spokesman said.

Sue Caro, of the Justice for Grenfell group, said that she had been told of people claiming to represent a senior barrister advising residents of the urgency of getting legal representation.

“We have also heard about different forms of scams, targeting survivors because of the money they are being given by the government,” she added.

If my scepticism about BMELAWYERSFORGRENFELL turns out to be justified that still places them on a different part of the spectrum of cuntishness to bottom-feeding ambulance chasing scumbags.

However the Grenfell fire casts a light on all aspects of how it came about and how it is responded to and that includes the functioning of the various groups which make up the 'representariat'. We will undoubtedly have plenty of opportunity to see how this works. I fear it may start with more illustrations of how the most "efficient" way to give a "voice to the voiceless" is to ensure they are voiceless by drowning out what they have to say.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thermite cladding.

Nano-thermite cladding.

 

[DotCommunist]

Nano-thermite cladding.

rampant greed and neglect cannot melt steel beams. Everyone knows that.

 

[Lurdan]

Some further details about the bogus Grenfell Victims and Survivors Trust

Call to investigate rival Grenfell Tower support group - Sunday Times (Paywalled)

Spoiler: Text of story

The government taskforce set up to help survivors of the Grenfell Tower disaster is facing criticism after promoting a “suspicious” trust that acted as a rival to community activist groups.

Last month, the taskforce delivered flyers to survivors’ hotel rooms inviting them to a meeting to establish the “Grenfell Victims and Survivors Trust” (GVST), an “independent organisation” that would be “the recognised body that [takes] full OWNERSHIP of all current and future issues relating to the Victims and Survivors of Grenfell”.

According to the flyer, the meeting, held at the taskforce’s base at the Westway Centre on June 30, would have speakers including a retired police commander and the area Dean of Kensington, the Rev Mark O’Donoghue.

When residents arrived they became suspicious of the group’s founder, Ibrahim El-Nour, who claimed to be a relative of one of the deceased. Quizzed by people who lived in the block, El-Nour said his aunt was Fathaya Alsanousi, a 70-year-old resident on the 23rd floor, who died in the fire.

This weekend, El-Nour, 60, admitted he was not related to Alsanousi but knew her as a “matriarchal figure” who came from the same part of Sudan as he had. He said he had set up the group with the best intentions after talks with taskforce members and a government minister.

The retired police chief said he had agreed to attend because the involvement of the Grenfell Fire Response Team taskforce implied it was government-backed. He left when the meeting descended into chaos.

O’Donoghue said he had declined to speak at the event and suspected his name had been used to give it a “veneer of respectability”.

El-Nour left with a police escort and GVST’s Twitter feed disappeared soon afterwards. Residents have now called for police to investigate the trust.

One local volunteer who works with survivors said: “Some of the community groups have really struggled to get support from the authorities, but this trust appears out of nowhere and gets its flyers in every survivor’s hotel rooms and a meeting at the Westway.”

A spokesman for the taskforce said:“The Grenfell Response Team offered support to a number of groups who were helping local people [including] providing space for meetings and help with distributing leaflets. This support was provided on the same basis to all organisations.”

The government taskforce set up to help survivors of the Grenfell Tower disaster is facing criticism after promoting a “suspicious” trust that acted as a rival to community activist groups.

Last month, the taskforce delivered flyers to survivors’ hotel rooms inviting them to a meeting to establish the “Grenfell Victims and Survivors Trust” (GVST), an “independent organisation” that would be “the recognised body that [takes] full OWNERSHIP of all current and future issues relating to the Victims and Survivors of Grenfell”.

(...)

When residents arrived they became suspicious of the group’s founder, Ibrahim El-Nour, who claimed to be a relative of one of the deceased. Quizzed by people who lived in the block, El-Nour said his aunt was Fathaya Alsanousi, a 70-year-old resident on the 23rd floor, who died in the fire.

This weekend, El-Nour, 60, admitted he was not related to Alsanousi but knew her as a “matriarchal figure” who came from the same part of Sudan as he had. He said he had set up the group with the best intentions after talks with taskforce members and a government minister.