Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Lurdan]

Yes we have, and as I pointed out before, it's wrong. Celotex does not make the cladding panels. It's the cladding panels which have failed "safety tests" although it's not very clear what those tests are.

In your reply to me you appear to be restricting the word cladding to the Reynobond ACM panels. However the Celotex RS5000 insulation also forms part of the overall cladding system.

As you say the Celotex insulation is not being tested under the arrangements set up by the DCLG. However at the Police press conference on June 23rd Det Supt Fiona McTaggart stated that small scale preliminary tests had been conducted by the Met on samples of the Reynobond panels and the Celotex insulation from Grenfell Tower. In the report in the Evening Standard she is quoted as saying

What we are being told is that the cladding and the insulation failed all safety tests.The insulation was more flammable than the cladding. Tests show the insulation samples combusted soon after the test started.

Everyone knows Celotex burns, and that it is a better insulator, lighter and cheaper than Rockwool, which doesn't. The spec sheet for RS5000 (pdf) shows how it should be protected from fire:

ie, it should be put behind about 1/2 hour protection. The speed with which the fire spread suggests that was not adhered to.

CEP Architectural Facades and images "fabricated (ie cut to shape) two of the components in the building’s cladding system (rainscreen panels and windows) using materials, and to a design, specified by the Grenfell Tower design and build team."

In a statement issued on June 23rd they stated :

Investigators have identified the role of the insulation material in Grenfell Tower. We assume they will want to understand why a class O fire spread rainscreen panel material and a class O insulation material were specified together.

Individually these materials can be integrated into a safe cladding system but certainly we recommend that in high rise buildings class O rainscreen panels should only be used in conjunction with a non-combustible insulation material such as mineral fibre.

They illustrate this with photographs from two fires in tower blocks clad with Reynobond PE and a similar product but using mineral fibre insulation.

Interestingly last Friday the Grenfell Action Group posted a PDF of the Sustainability & Energy Statement from the 2012 planning application for the Grenfell Tower refurbishment. This gives calculations of the anticipated effect of the insulation. The tables illustrating how the calculations are arrived at show that not only were they based on a system employing zinc Reynobond FR (which we know was replaced with aluminium Reynobond PE in a cost cutting exercise in 2014) but also using the more fire resistant Celotex FR5000 instead of the Celotex RS5000 that was actually used.
(Full PDF here) Here's one of the tables :

No doubt the issue who made the decision to use Celotex RS5000 instead will be under scrutiny.

Of course the issue with the Celotex insulation isn't limited to how fire resistant it is. As the Grenfell Action Group point out :

According to studies this material burns when exposed to a fire of moderate heat and intensity. Once ignited it burns rapidly and produces intense heat, dense smoke and irritant flammable gases which are extremely toxic. The toxic gases produced include carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide. The burning PIR attached to the exterior of Grenfell Tower is believed to have released enough poisonous hydrogen cyanide gas to potentially fill every dwelling in the building, and the simultaneous release of carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide is more lethal than if they are released separately.

Richard Hull who co-authored "Assessment of the fire toxicity of building insulation materials" in 2011, (PDF available here) put it a little more bluntly in an interview for Sky reported in the Mirror.

The outside wall of the building had 150mm of PIR foam (fitted), and once the fire had spread to that every flat would have its own source of PIR foam, which would have produced enough hydrogen cyanide to kill all the people in that flat

This could presumably be an issue even if fire is confined to a single area as is intended in buildings of this design.

Add in fire spread and the complete failure of the arrangements to keep the staircase relatively smoke free and this insulation is fully fit for purpose in helping to unwittingly create what radical eugenicists used to call the "lethal chamber".

If I had my way, I would build a lethal chamber as big as the Crystal Palace, with a military band playing softly, adn a Cinematograph working brightly; then I'd go out in the back streets and main streets and bring them all in, all the sick, the halt, and the maimed; I would lead them gently, and they would smile me a weary thanks; and the band would softly bubble out the 'Hallelujah Chorus'.

D. H. Lawrence 1909

 

[Idris2002]

Verso

No. Just no. The key segregation in Kensington is class, not race: the latter trails in the wake of the former (not that anyone on here would need reminding of that).

 

[Treacle Toes]

No. Just no. The key segregation in Kensington is class, not race: the latter trails in the wake of the former (not that anyone on here would need reminding of that).

Do contact the author and let her know you disagree with her.

 

[Idris2002]

Do contact the author and let her know you disagree with her.

I'm sure it would be an educational experience for everyone.

 

[Idris2002]

Rutita1, look, the treatment of ethnic minorities in UK is deeply rooted in the legacy of the Empire, and all its tools of colonial rule. But the whole point of colonial tactics and strategies of rule was that they weren't for use in the metropole or the 'mother country'. There, other forms of power and its abuses were employed - and it's those forms which provided the basis for the events at Grenfell tower and after.

 

[Pickman's model]

Rutita1, look, the treatment of ethnic minorities in UK is deeply rooted in the legacy of the Empire, and all its tools of colonial rule. But the whole point of colonial tactics and strategies of rule was that they weren't for use in the metropole or the 'mother country'. There, other forms of power and its abuses were employed - and it's those forms which provided the basis for the events at Grenfell tower and after.

not to mention that similar problems found in towerblocks up and down the country are found in areas where the residents of social housing are predominantly white too. this is to do rather more with class and capitalism than race.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I am sure you don't mean to sound so condescending.

Rutita1, look, the treatment of ethnic minorities in UK is deeply rooted in the legacy of the Empire, and all its tools of colonial rule. But the whole point of colonial tactics and strategies of rule was that they weren't for use in the metropole or the 'mother country'.

Massive generalisation here don't you think? I'll play for a bit though. Maybe, at a time when the 'mother country' didn't have many 'subjects' from the colonies/former colonies there was no necessity, nor context in which to employ such tactics?

There, other forms of power and its abuses were employed - and it's those forms which provided the basis for the events at Grenfell tower and after.

By there you mean 'here'?

 

[Pickman's model]

Massive generalisation here don't you think? I'll play for a bit though. Maybe, at a time when the 'mother country' didn't have many 'subjects' from the colonies/former colonies there was no necessity, nor context in which to action such tactics?

what time's that then? and action such tactics? the vacuity of management-speak obscures your meaning.

 

[Idris2002]

I am sure you don't mean to sound so condescending.

Don't be so sure.

Massive generalisation here don't you think? I'll play for a bit though. Maybe, at a time when the 'mother country' didn't have many 'subjects' from the colonies/former colonies there was no necessity, nor context in which to action such tactics?

But even though the rise of ethnic minority communities with 'staying power' did attract the attention of those in charge of the 'mother country', and not in a good way, they could not use the methods of social control (e.g. openly racist urban planning) which were possible in the colonies.

By there you mean 'here'?

Yes, because I'm here and not there.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Don't be so sure.

Right. I'll not bother with you then.

 

[Pickman's model]

Don't be so sure.



But even though the rise of ethnic minority communities with 'staying power' did attract the attention of those in charge of the 'mother country', and not in a good way, they could not use the methods of social control (e.g. openly racist urban planning) which were possible in the colonies.



Yes, because I'm here and not there.

for the verso thesis to be valid, the conditions obtaining in north kensington must be of post-windrush origin. however, north kensington in the 1930s was very deprived:

 

[Idris2002]

for the verso thesis to be valid, the conditions obtaining in north kensington must be of post-windrush origin. however, north kensington in the 1930s was very deprived:

View attachment 110746

View attachment 110747

Thanks, that is interesting. There is an important question, though, of how racist and racialised deployments of power fed into those conditions, and added their share to the structural injustices which led to the fire. And so even though Rutita1 thinks I'm condescending, I think her posting of that link had an undeniable value.

 

[Mation]

No. Just no. The key segregation in Kensington is class, not race: the latter trails in the wake of the former (not that anyone on here would need reminding of that).

Why "No. Just no."? I didn't read that and think it negates a class analysis. Can't we hold more than one way of looking at things in our heads? (By we I mean you )

 

[Treacle Toes]

Why "No. Just no."? I didn't read that and think it negates a class analysis. Can't we hold more than one way of looking at things in our heads? (By we I mean you )

No. Just no. Mation, look...

 

[ddraig]

apols if already posted

"This isn't Great Britain, this is Grenfell Britain

Watch my rhyming response to Grenfell, then subscribe to Justice 4 Grenfell: www.justice4grenfell.org"

 

[ViolentPanda]

apols if already posted

"This isn't Great Britain, this is Grenfell Britain

Watch my rhyming response to Grenfell, then subscribe to Justice 4 Grenfell: www.justice4grenfell.org"

I love Georgie's stuff. Great bloke, walks the walk. He's done stuff to help Cressingham Gardens (his piece "Estate of War" was filmed there) and Brixton Arches, and he does loads of community work with the local youth.

 

[Idris2002]

Why "No. Just no."? I didn't read that and think it negates a class analysis. Can't we hold more than one way of looking at things in our heads? (By we I mean you )

No. Just no. Mation, look...

OK, look at it this way. Back in the early 1900s, the British colonial authorities in Sierra Leone built new houses in the hills above Freetown, in order that the local expat admin class wouldn't be exposed to Malaria. The people living down the hill - i.e. the population of indigenous Africans, and people of African descent - were not helped out with any proper public health measures against the mozzie-born illness.

That's an example of how, in the colonial world at its height, openly racist urban planning exposed those considered racially inferior to natural disasters, epidemics, etc.

The key point is that it was openly racist: the racism involved in the processes that exposed Grenfell's residents to death by fire are more covert, secretive and insidious. And they piggy-backed on the pre-existing class differences (not 'classist', class) that shaped Kensington's demographics and urban geography. So the two need to be analysed. And that's why I said 'no, just no' to the verso link - because it assumed a priori that what was true of the colonial world was true of Planet London too, and I just didn't think that that was the case.

One point that struck me as interesting about the Verso link, though, was the statistic that said that BME kids were far more likely to live on the upper floors of tower blocks than anywhere else. Has anyone else come across that one before?

 

[belboid]

Taskforce sent in to replace 'parts of' the council

Grenfell Tower: Government sends in 'taskforce' - BBC News

 

[belboid]

One point that struck me as interesting about the Verso link, though, was the statistic that said that BME kids were far more likely to live on the upper floors of tower blocks than anywhere else. Has anyone else come across that one before?

I think racist housing policies were fairly well established, well into the eighties. Haringey used to (in the seventies, iirr) explicitly place white and 'immigrant' families in different estates. The 'white' estates weren't particularly better dwellings, but they were nearer to much better amenities.

Hackney was the subject of a CRE study in its 'loony left' days which found it wasn't much better, black families being placed in 'worse' estates as a matter of course. I can't find the original report now, but there is this

 

[not-bono-ever]

for the verso thesis to be valid, the conditions obtaining in north kensington must be of post-windrush origin. however, north kensington in the 1930s was very deprived:

View attachment 110746

View attachment 110747

Am reading Radical London in the 50's buke - it outlines a similar situation for the St Pancras area

 

[Libertad]

Am reading Radical London in the 50's buke - it outlines a similar situation for the St Pancras area

A nation wide rent strike might help to concentrate minds.

 

[teqniq]

The Grenfell inquiry will be a stitch-up. Here’s why | George Monbiot

 

[Pickman's model]

Am reading Radical London in the 50's buke - it outlines a similar situation for the St Pancras area

unaware of book: have ordered

 

[Idris2002]

I think racist housing policies were fairly well established, well into the eighties. Haringey used to (in the seventies, iirr) explicitly place white and 'immigrant' families in different estates. The 'white' estates weren't particularly better dwellings, but they were nearer to much better amenities.

Hackney was the subject of a CRE study in its 'loony left' days which found it wasn't much better, black families being placed in 'worse' estates as a matter of course. I can't find the original report now, but there is this

Googling brings up this book on the urban geography of racism:

http://www.univpgri-palembang.ac.id.../Geografi manusia/Ras dan Rasisme.pdf#page=12

 

[cupid_stunt]

Taskforce sent in to replace 'parts of' the council

Grenfell Tower: Government sends in 'taskforce' - BBC News

About bloody time.

 

[not-bono-ever]

unaware of book: have ordered

Radical London in the 1950s - Amberley Publishing

Link for anyone else who is interested in post war London stuff

 

[Pickman's model]

I think racist housing policies were fairly well established, well into the eighties. Haringey used to (in the seventies, iirr) explicitly place white and 'immigrant' families in different estates. The 'white' estates weren't particularly better dwellings, but they were nearer to much better amenities.

Hackney was the subject of a CRE study in its 'loony left' days which found it wasn't much better, black families being placed in 'worse' estates as a matter of course. I can't find the original report now, but there is this

 

[not-bono-ever]

The Grenfell inquiry will be a stitch-up. Here’s why | George Monbiot

A cavalcade of scum right there

 

[Treacle Toes]

OK, look at it this way. Back in the early 1900s, the British colonial authorities in Sierra Leone built new houses in the hills above Freetown, in order that the local expat admin class wouldn't be exposed to Malaria. The people living down the hill - i.e. the population of indigenous Africans, and people of African descent - were not helped out with any proper public health measures against the mozzie-born illness.

That's an example of how, in the colonial world at its height, openly racist urban planning exposed those considered racially inferior to natural disasters, epidemics, etc.

The key point is that it was openly racist: the racism involved in the processes that exposed Grenfell's residents to death by fire are more covert, secretive and insidious. And they piggy-backed on the pre-existing class differences (not 'classist', class) that shaped Kensington's demographics and urban geography. So the two need to be analysed. And that's why I said 'no, just no' to the verso link - because it assumed a priori that what was true of the colonial world was true of Planet London too, and

Why have you come back to this with yet another unnecessary condescending effort at a history lesson?

I just didn't think that that was the case.

No, you didn't hence your 'No. Just no.' post.

I think you have since actually read the article and thought about it...realising there is much more to what she has written with regard 'racist housing policies' and perhaps the analogy is making much more sense to you now you have actually considered it more closely.

Statements like this are annoying tbh...

But even though the rise of ethnic minority communities with 'staying power' did attract the attention of those in charge of the 'mother country', and not in a good way, they could not use the methods of social control (e.g. openly racist urban planning) which were possible in the colonies.

You are talking about PEOPLE, the direct ancestors of and/or people here on Urban. There is a coldness and objectification in your tone and descriptions. A phrasing which seems to overlook the importance of almost 70 years of 'stay power' and experiences. Policies don't need to be openly racist to have an effect. They just need to be implemented.

 

[Treacle Toes]

87 discoveries of human remains have been found in Grenfell Tower, police reveal