Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[Wilf]

Anyway, I've not been killed today (not that any of you were worried ). The rest of you lads out there, stay safe, stay vigilant.

 

[Pickman's model]

Anyway, I've not been killed today (not that any of you were worried ). The rest of you lads out there, stay safe, stay vigilant.

glad to hear yr well

e2a: Bungle73 i've still not been run down by a bus

 

[Wilf]

glad to hear yr well

Just living day to day. Trying to get back to the person I was before the Fatwa was issued.

 

[belboid]

Feminist protesters storm red carpet at London premiere of Suffragette

Apparently Sisters Uncut have been protesting at the 'Suffragette' Premiere and crazily voting it down on IMDB as racist, way to go, undermine a film that supports your cause, we seem to be back to the 80's.

Guardian has put it on its front page.

imbeciles! Making a protest that all the female cast members present, uhh, supported

(or at least pretended to)

 

[J Ed]

I think that their criticisms of the film are bizarre but their highlighting of the juxtaposition of the Hollywood monetisation of feminism while the cuts attack women in particular is spot on.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I think that their criticisms of the film are bizarre .

Can you expand on this please?

 

[J Ed]

Can you expand on this please?

Yeah, okay. Maybe there is something I am not understanding here but I don't have any problem with the use of the slogan 'I'd rather be a rebel than a slave' in a film about Emmeline Pankhurst since she actually said it and she said it at a time when women were absolutely completely in a position of social, economic and political subordination to men. Yes, the position of women in early 20th Century Britain was not equivalent to chattel slavery as experienced by the African diaspora in the Americas but the word 'slave' encompasses and historically has encompassed many more definitions than that. I am also sceptical of exactly where the criticism is coming from given that one of the originators of the backlash against the use of the slogan is Deray McKesson who seems to spend his time alternating between co-opting the Black Lives Matter movement and promoting privatisations (especially in education) which particularly disadvantage black working-class Americans. I regard people like him as basically spending an awful lot of their time finding identity politics culture war issues that they can eventually mask their neoliberal policies in a way that appears legitimate to left or liberal audiences that would otherwise be critical of those neoliberal policies.

As I understand it the other main issue taken with the film is that it is too white, but Emmeline Pankhurst lived and operated within a world that was overwhelming white and she was a supporter of a racial politics which I and I'm sure almost everyone on this forum would be against. The Guardian article I linked to repeats the claim that the film whitewashes the historical narrative, and then by making a second claim which is actually accurate "However compelled one is to whitewash a historical narrative – or to choose narratives that are majority white to convert into Hollywood films" it invalidates the original claim!

Of course none of this means I'm not completely in favour of protests against cuts to DV groups at the premiere of this film or frankly anywhere else, but these are my reasons for finding the criticisms of the film bizarre.

 

[Mation]

The problem J Ed , or one of them - I've not seen the film - isn't that it's a real quote or that it's in the film, but that it is now being used as the slogan. Why didn't anyone involved think about what black people might feel about this now? Why doesn't it matter?

 

[Mation]

How do you tag someone with a space in their name?

 

[belboid]

How do you tag someone with a space in their name?

same as usual, include the space and it should just pop up

 

[fishfinger]

How do you tag someone with a space in their name?

You mean like J Ed ? If so, then type the at symbol followed by j ed

Edit: me too slow

 

[Mation]

same as usual, include the space and it should just pop up

Ta

 

[andysays]

The problem J Ed , or one of them - I've not seen the film - isn't that its a real quote or that its in the film, but that it now being used as the slogan. Why didn't anyone involved think about what black people might feel about this now? Why doesn't it matter?

Can you clarify what you mean? How do you know whether the film makers did or didn't think about what black people might think? What are you suggesting black people might think (and do you mean all black people or just some) and should the fact that black people might think a particular thing about the use of this slogan with a historically specific context mean that the film makers shouldn't use it and if so why?

I appreciate that I'm bombarding you with questions, but your question to J Ed seems to me to beg those questions

 

[comrade spurski]

Feminist protesters storm red carpet at London premiere of Suffragette

Apparently Sisters Uncut have been protesting at the 'Suffragette' Premiere and crazily voting it down on IMDB as racist, way to go, undermine a film that supports your cause, we seem to be back to the 80's.

Guardian has put it on its front page.

Started poorly, went down a bit and ended badly...apart from that, great post

 

[toggle]

How many of the suffragettes were from ethnic minorities? I'm not aware of any, and that isn't through lack of trying to find out. and the only ethnic minority British suffragist i'm aware of is Sophia Dulep Singh.

and i've put the book about her on my reading list. i've been hoping someone would write that one for a while now.

 

[belboid]

How many of the suffragettes were from ethnic minorities? I'm not aware of any, and that isn't through lack of trying to find out. and the only ethnic minority British suffragist i'm aware of is Sophia Dulep Singh.

and i've put the book about her on my reading list. i've been hoping someone would write that one for a while now.

There were some, mostly of Indian origin, allying to a similar movement in India. Most notable was a woman called Sophia Duleep Singh.
What did the suffragette movement in Britain really look like?

 

[comrade spurski]

How many of the suffragettes were from ethnic minorities? I'm not aware of any, and that isn't through lack of trying to find out. and the only ethnic minority British suffragist i'm aware of is Sophia Dulep Singh.

How many black women were:
A) encouraged and able to join ?
B) were recognised as members ?

 

[J Ed]

The problem J Ed , or one of them - I've not seen the film - isn't that its a real quote or that its in the film, but that it now being used as the slogan. Why didn't anyone involved think about what black people might feel about this now? Why doesn't it matter?

I don't know, I am not about to assume anything about the intentions of others on this but if I were asked whether that slogan could be considered offensive by black people or anyone else I would say no. Actually it's only just occurred to me that there is an extra dimension to it in a US context (or intersectional, by extension), I think that there are people who are interpreting or who are saying that it could be interpreted as meaning "I'd rather be a [Confederate] rebel than a [black] slave". That interpretation has been mentioned here and in plenty of other articles and now frankly I think that the criticisms of the slogan are even more bizarre, sorry but not everything is about America and this film is about the British suffragettes not the US Civil War.

 

[Belushi]

How many of the suffragettes were from ethnic minorities? I'm not aware of any, and that isn't through lack of trying to find out. and the only ethnic minority British suffragist i'm aware of is Sophia Dulep Singh.

and i've put the book about her on my reading list. i've been hoping someone would write that one for a while now.

I saw a picture yesterday of some Indian suffragettes on a march in London, I'll see if I can locate it.

 

[toggle]

There were some, mostly of Indian origin, allying to a similar movement in India. Most notable was a woman called Sophia Duleep Singh.
What did the suffragette movement in Britain really look like?

ah, she was a suffragette then.

 

[toggle]

I saw a picture yesterday of some Indian suffragettes on a march in London, I'll see if I can locate it.

id seen the pictures of Singh before, but not a lot else.

and i suspected there was more because of the longstanding links between some of the British and Indian reformers.

 

[butchersapron]

They took her fathers kingdom and all they gave her back was beings the queens god-daughter.

Ladies not women.

 

[toggle]

How many black women were:
A) encouraged and able to join ?
B) were recognised as members ?

i don't know. that's why i was asking. because i've looked for answers to this before and not found it being discussed in a UK context.

I know the story in the UK was different to the US. a smaller black population and there isn't an evidenced history of deliberate exclusion here. I do know that the Indian woman mentioned above was upper class, some of the stories I managed to find name her as a princess. but also that the suffragettes in particular did admit working class women and women from less respectful professions in a way that was scandalous at the time. and that were black women involved, there may be no mention that they were black, unless they did something notorious enough that it was acceptable to breach normal manners and mention their race. (yes, this was true at the time, not my projection of modern attitudes)

 

[Idris2002]

How about a film about Sylvia Pankhurst and Haile Selassie?

 

[butchersapron]

Why not - after the film about her and the workers dreadnought. And being expelled by her racist suffragette comrades.

 

[J Ed]

Why not - after the film about her and the workers dreadnought. And being expelled by here racist suffragette comrades.

Battleship Pankhurst

 

[comrade spurski]

i don't know. that's why i was asking. because i've looked for answers to this before and not found it being discussed in a UK context.

I know the story in the UK was different to the US. a smaller black population and there isn't an evidenced history of deliberate exclusion here. I do know that the Indian woman mentioned above was upper class, some of the stories I managed to find name her as a princess. but also that the suffragettes in particular did admit working class women and women from less respectful professions in a way that was scandalous at the time. and that were black women involved, there may be no mention that they were black, unless they did something notorious enough that it was acceptable to breach normal manners and mention their race. (yes, this was true at the time, not my projection of modern attitudes)

Sorry mate...wasn't questioning you horribly...was hoping you might know the answers as you seemed to have a lot more knowledge of it than me.

 

[Mation]

Can you clarify what you mean? How do you know whether the film makers did or didn't think about what black people might think? What are you suggesting black people might think (and do you mean all black people or just some) and should the fact that black people might think a particular thing about the use of this slogan with a historically specific context mean that the film makers shouldn't use it and if so why?

I appreciate that I'm bombarding you with questions, but your question to J Ed seems to me to beg those questions

I don't know, I am not about to assume anything about the intentions of others on this but if I were asked whether that slogan could be considered offensive by black people or anyone else I would say no. Actually it's only just occurred to me that there is an extra dimension to it in a US context (or intersectional, by extension), I think that there are people who are interpreting or who are saying that it could be interpreted as meaning "I'd rather be a [Confederate] rebel than a [black] slave". That interpretation has been mentioned here and in plenty of other articles and now frankly I think that the criticisms of the slogan are even more bizarre, sorry but not everything is about America and this film is about the British suffragettes not the US Civil War.

Who had a choice about being a slave?

Would black people rather have been slaves?

Is the intended audience for the film only white British people who don't find the slogan offensive?

Is it ok to say, fuck it, we don't care if this is insensitive? When? Who is doing the deciding and who might find it offensive?

It is important what stories people chose to tell, and not just what but how. What's included and what's left out. What is ok to leave out because otherwise there won't be a neat story in the eyes of the film-maker.

I don't have a problem with telling this particular woman's story (though, again, I haven't seen the film, I might have a problem with how). I'd be glad of a story that wasn't just about the white women. I'm sure a 'neat' one could have been put together if the film-maker was concerned about telling the story of the whole movement and about how the film might be received if it only told the story of the white suffragettes. It's not a given that a story centred on Emmeline Pankhurst must exclude Indian suffragettes. It's a choice. The same sort of choice that is made again and again. Many people, black and white, notice and care.

Why doesn't that matter?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Nothing new is it? Limited focus on the more palatable parts of history (even when it is about unpalatable women's suffrage ), and the more palatable views/position of those being celebrated...Damn right there was a choice by the film makers. Equally Sisters Uncut made the right choice to protest this IMO.

 

[J Ed]

Who had a choice about being a slave?

Would black people rather have been slaves?

I don't think that the rather bit in the slogan is that bad, while no one chooses to be a slave there were times and circumstances in which slaves did escape slavery and eventually destroy the institution, and again I don't think that the word 'slave' has to refer to chattel slavery. B

Is the intended audience for the film only white British people who don't find the slogan offensive?

I would guess not but I think that it would be hard to account for the sensitivities of people in every single culture in every country whether their sensitivities are based in reality or misconceptions.

Is it ok to say, fuck it, we don't care if this is insensitive? When? Who is doing the deciding and who might find it offensive?

It is important what stories people chose to tell, and not just what but how. What's included and what's left out. What is ok to leave out because otherwise there won't be a neat story in the eyes of the film-maker.

I don't have a problem with telling this particular woman's story (though, again, I haven't seen the film, I might have a problem with how). I'd be glad of a story that wasn't just about the white women. I'm sure a 'neat' one could have been put together if the film-maker was concerned about telling the story of the whole movement and about how the film might be received if it only told the story of the white suffragettes. It's not a given that a story centred on Emmeline Pankhurst must exclude Indian suffragettes. It's a choice. The same sort of choice that is made again and again. Many people, black and white, notice and care.

I agree with this, it's worth pointing out that the Screenwriter for Suffragette was also responsible for the Iron Lady. Emmeline Pankhurst is a perfect feminist for the ruling class today - she was anti-Communist, an imperialist and classist so there is little that needs to be done to make her acceptable for conservative sensibilities today. It is not really surprising that we are seeing a film centred around her rather than, for example, Emma Goldman or Rosa Luxemburg.