Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[cesare]

Framing it as 'trans-exclusionary' - and therefore bigoted - is surely problematic?

It's excluding trans people so it sounds descriptive to me. If the reason for exclusion is bigotry, then they're not really in a strong position to be upset by people calling them bigots. If it's not bigotry, then they need to provide credible evidence to support their trans exclusion.

 

[Pickman's model]

It means, though, you aren't engaging with what people *in this thread* are saying or thinking at all. You are assuming them to be saying and thinking the crap you've heard in the past and re-engaging with that all over again instead, to the detriment of us all, yourself included.

engaging? you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've spent the last two hours reading various arguments online. It's complicated. I have sympathy with both sides tbh.

i hope that fence is comfy

 

[Citizen66]

It's excluding trans people so it sounds descriptive to me. If the reason for exclusion is bigotry, then they're not really in a strong position to be upset by people calling them bigots. If it's not bigotry, then they need to provide credible evidence to support their trans exclusion.

I'm playing devils advocate here based on some views I've read. One problem is the concept of someone merely having to 'identify' as a woman' to be allowed into female only spaces of which there's a whole spectrum. So for all intents and purposes a man can rock up to a female only space, say he identifies as a woman and expect to be let in? If not, where is a line drawn on the trans spectrum?

The other argument was based on female oppression being based largely on their reproductive systems. Things that are unique to cis women.

 

[Citizen66]

i hope that fence is comfy

Things in life are nuanced.

 

[likesfish]

It's not just a twitter storm now though. The person/people who have engineered this have co-opted the right wing press, 4chan, reddit, etc in an effort to blow it up out of all proportion, lose her job, have her investigated by the police and strip her of her degree. Whatever I think of her politics, the more I hear about what's happened and read it for myself, the stronger my support for her. The politics can wait.

Sorry she behaved idiotically then decided to double down on her idiocy then complains she's being bullied.
What the fuck did she expect?
The male tears cartoon was a call out turns put she can hand it out just cant take it.

 

[Sea Star]

Framing it as 'trans-exclusionary' - and therefore bigoted - is surely problematic?

only if framing a spade as a digging implement is problematic

 

[cesare]

I'm playing devils advocate here based on some views I've read. One problem is the concept of someone merely having to 'identify' as a woman' to be allowed into female only spaces of which there's a whole spectrum. So for all intents and purposes a man can rock up to a female only space, say he identifies as a woman and expect to be let in? If not, where is a line drawn on the trans spectrum?

The other argument was based on female oppression being based largely on their reproductive systems. Things that are unique to cis women.

Before we go any further with this "devil's advocate" position, can you just explain what you mean by merely identifying? And then also the reproductive system aspect - what's the significance with that?

 

[cesare]

Sorry she behaved idiotically then decided to double down on her idiocy then complains she's being bullied.
What the fuck did she expect?
The male tears cartoon was a call out turns put she can hand it out just cant take it.

You've said some really really really fucking stupid stuff on here eg about Muslims. Anyone hunted you down for it, tried to lose you your job, investigated by the police etc?

 

[Sea Star]

The other argument was based on female oppression being based largely on their reproductive systems. Things that are unique to cis women.

Its an opinion some women hold. It's not by any means a majority view within feminism, and it is not a verifiable truth. Why should their dogma win over against my personal experience and identity.

 

[Citizen66]

Before we go any further with this "devil's advocate" position, can you just explain what you mean by merely identifying? And then also the reproductive system aspect - what's the significance with that?

So you haven't even bothered to acquaint yourself with these positions prior to dismissing them as exclusionist?

 

[Sea Star]

So you haven't even bothered to acquaint yourself with these positions prior to dismissing them as exclusionist?

but they are exclusionist.

 

[cesare]

So you haven't even bothered to acquaint yourself with these positions prior to dismissing them as exclusionist?

I have. A lot longer than your couple of hours just now.

 

[Citizen66]

Its an opinion some women hold. It's not by any means a majority view within feminism, and it is not a verifiable truth. Why should their dogma win over against my personal experience and identity.

But why does one opinion have to conquer all?

 

[Sea Star]

But why does one opinion have to conquer all?

my question exactly!!

Why not ask the exclusionists?

 

[Citizen66]

I have. A lot longer than your couple of hours just now.

And what about others including Thora who now appear to be silent in the debate as the bigot hammer cracks down?

 

[cesare]

And what about others including Thora who now appear to be silent in the debate as the bigot hammer cracks down?

There's a bigot hammer falling on Casually Red in the Irish equal marriage thread too

 

[Citizen66]

There's a bigot hammer falling on Casually Red in the Irish equal marriage thread too

So cis women have to accept everyone who identifies as female into women only spaces or they're bigots?

 

[Sea Star]

And what about others including Thora who now appear to be silent in the debate as the bigot hammer cracks down?

I was called a bigot (misogynist) many, many times including in a widely distributed blog and given no right to reply. And all I wanted to do was argue from my personal gender identity and not on the assumption of some others that I was a man.

 

[Sea Star]

So cis women have to accept everyone who identifies as female into women only spaces or they're bigots?

trans women don't accept everyone that claims to be trans so I doubt it. We are able to police ourselves quite well.

 

[Citizen66]

I was called a bigot (misogynist) many, many times including in a widely distributed blog and given no right to reply. And all I wanted to do was argue from my personal gender identity and not on the assumption of some others that I was a man.

I don't think anyone on here thinks you're a man. I don't.

 

[cesare]

So cis women have to accept everyone who identifies as female into women only spaces or they're bigots?

Most Cis women already do. There are some Cis women that don't and yes, they might be bigots.

 

[Citizen66]

trans women don't accept everyone that claims to be trans so I doubt it. We are able to police ourselves quite well.

So where is the line drawn?

 

[8ball]

There's a bigot hammer falling on Casually Red in the Irish equal marriage thread too

Although some people were a bit meh about equal marriage on the reasonable suspicion that it was a ploy by the heterosexual community to make everyone else as miserable as they are.

 

[Sea Star]

So cis women have to accept everyone who identifies as female into women only spaces or they're bigots?

most cis women are perfectly happy to admit trans women into womens spaces - so please make that clear - it is a minority who try to exclude us.

 

[cesare]

Although some people were a bit meh about equal marriage on the reasonable suspicion that it was a ploy by the heterosexual community to make everyone else as miserable as they are.

 

[Sea Star]

So where is the line drawn?

that's our business, not yours

 

[Citizen66]

most cis women are perfectly happy to admit trans women into womens spaces - so please make that clear - it is a minority who try to exclude us.

But what about their views? I'm not certain that they're driven by bigotry tbh. They *may* be.

 

[Sea Star]

I don't think anyone on here thinks you're a man. I don't.

I've been called a man so many times by TEs that I know the arguments by now and where they lead.

If I'm not a man, what am I?

 

[Citizen66]

that's our business, not yours

"our"?