Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[cesare]

That fits with the cries of "no platforming" every time a trans woman tried to express an opinion in public.

People trying to prevent trans women from having a platform?

 

[Sea Star]

People trying to prevent trans women from having a platform?

No - claims by trans excluding feminists (many of whom have privileged access to the media) that the mere act of us responding to their claims is "no platforming"

 

[cesare]

No - claims by trans excluding feminists (many of whom have privileged access to the media) that the mere act of us responding to their claims is "no platforming"

Ah, OK, I see, cheers.

 

[Sea Star]

I disagree. It was a political discussion. If someone offers up their experiences as the person concerned did, then that's going to be up for discussion. As I said, if they know they're likely to get upset about it, don't offer it up for discussion.

I think the key word here is "discussion". Discussion is fine, but being told your whole gender identity is fallacious is not a discussion.

 

[Sea Star]

AS, has a single, solitary person on this thread said that you are a man? If not, why do you keep returning to this frame of reference?

As far as I can tell, the argument has more been about whether or not "being a man" or "being a woman" are actually well defined terms in the first place. And, if so, who gets to make those definitions, and do they help?

Because its an extremely common accusation I receive from those who want to exclude me from women's spaces. The argument to exclude trans women from women's spaces inevitably lead to the claim that trans women are in fact men.

 

[cesare]

Because its an extremely common accusation I receive from those who want to exclude me from women's spaces. The argument to exclude trans women from women's spaces inevitably lead to the claim that trans women are in fact men.

And this is because they wouldn't seek to exclude trans women from their spaces unless they actually did think trans women are in fact men. If they think that trans women are women, they wouldn't want to try and exclude them, presumably.

 

[kabbes]

Because its an extremely common accusation I receive from those who want to exclude me from women's spaces. The argument to exclude trans women from women's spaces inevitably lead to the claim that trans women are in fact men.

It means, though, you aren't engaging with what people *in this thread* are saying or thinking at all. You are assuming them to be saying and thinking the crap you've heard in the past and re-engaging with that all over again instead, to the detriment of us all, yourself included.

 

[kabbes]

And this is because they wouldn't seek to exclude trans women from their spaces unless they actually did think trans women are in fact men. If they think that trans women are women, they wouldn't want to try and exclude them, presumably.

That's just a plain old fallacious line of logic.

It also only relates to a fraction of what has been said on this thread.

 

[cesare]

It means, though, you aren't engaging with what people *in this thread* are saying or thinking at all. You are assuming them to be saying and thinking the crap you've heard in the past and re-engaging with that all over again instead, to the detriment of us all, yourself included.

The fact that you don't recognise trans exclusionary arguments, however coded, doesn't mean to say that they're not there.

 

[cesare]

That's just a plain old fallacious line of logic.

You'll need to set out why.

 

[cesare]

It also only relates to a fraction of what has been said on this thread.

It may have been a fraction as far as you're concerned, but it's pretty fundamental when you're the recipient.

 

[Sea Star]

It means, though, you aren't engaging with what people *in this thread* are saying or thinking at all. You are assuming them to be saying and thinking the crap you've heard in the past and re-engaging with that all over again instead, to the detriment of us all, yourself included.

That's nonsense. I've been engaging as much as I can. I could just choose not to engage at all.

And as I said, I'm not even attempting to defend my gender identity - but explaining it and the consequences of it, and where critics of trans people are coming from.

And there have been trans exclusionist arguments on this thread so you are incorrect.

 

[Sea Star]

That's just a plain old fallacious line of logic.

Explain why

It also only relates to a fraction of what has been said on this thread.

I never said it didn't but its still there and I still have to deal with it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

You'll need to set out why.

^^^This please...I asked for these 'details' and/or peoples experiences earlier in the thread. I feel like I need them to understand why some people don't think it's right to include trans* women in women only spaces.

What are people imagining would happen? What does happen?

 

[kabbes]

You'll need to set out why.

You're the one claiming a syllogism -- you set out why that syllogism is true.

 

[Sea Star]

^^^This please...I asked for these 'details' and/or peoples experiences earlier in the thread. I feel like I need them to understand why some people don't think it's right to include trans* women in women only spaces.

What are people imagining would happen? What does happen?

I've asked over and over for evidence that trans women are a threat to cis women, above that from other cis women, and have seen none. I was actually raped by a cis woman so I know abuse can go the other way!

The cis women I know trust me implicitly in the way they would never trust a man. It initially suprised me that I am so trusted as I assumed nothing at the start of this process. It seems to me that my cis female friends accepted me as female long before I accepted myself as female.

 

[Citizen66]

Has anyone made that argument? Thora started to explore what gender actually means. I thought she made interesting points although I'm guessing it was that which sailed too close to the wind? Red Cat too.

 

[cesare]

You're the one claiming a syllogism -- you set out why that syllogism is true.

You're the one using academic language. If you're not prepared to explain what you mean it's a pretty poor show.

 

[Sea Star]

I'm out of here! Please discuss me as you please.

 

[kabbes]

Has anyone made that argument? Thora started to explore what gender actually means. I thought she made interesting points although I'm guessing it was that which sailed too close to the wind? Red Cat too.

That's how I saw it too

 

[kabbes]

You're the one using academic language. If you're not prepared to explain what you mean it's a pretty poor show.

You said the only reason for A can be B. You need to do a lot of work to show B is the only possible reason for A.

 

[emanymton]

You'll need to set out why.

I would say that for one thing saying someone is not a women is not the same thing as saying they are a man. And secondly it may be possible to agree someone is a woman and still feel they should be excluded from women only spaces. Not saying I necessarily agree but it's what stood out to me.

 

[cesare]

I would say that for one thing saying someone is not a women is not the same thing as saying they are a man. And secondly it may be possible to agree someone is a woman and still feel they should be excluded from women only spaces. Not saying I necessarily agree but it's what stood out to me.

So we go full circle

 

[cesare]

You said the only reason for A can be B. You need to do a lot of work to show B is the only possible reason for A.

Well if it's not their argument, and fallacious as you say, then the people arguing it need to provide the evidence for exclusion.

 

[seventh bullet]

Big Bill Haywood must be turning in his grave.

Just a middle class tribute band.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

interesting: London IWW brought an emergency motion...

Since when is a twitter storm a fucking emergency?

 

[co-op]

I would say that for one thing saying someone is not a women is not the same thing as saying they are a man. .

For some people it is the same (not me). I think AS has come very close to saying it, although maybe I am mis-reading her?

Men and women who fit into the binary do not generally have their gender identity challenged.

 

[Citizen66]

I've spent the last two hours reading various arguments online. It's complicated. I have sympathy with both sides tbh.

 

[cesare]

Since when is a twitter storm a fucking emergency?

It's not just a twitter storm now though. The person/people who have engineered this have co-opted the right wing press, 4chan, reddit, etc in an effort to blow it up out of all proportion, lose her job, have her investigated by the police and strip her of her degree. Whatever I think of her politics, the more I hear about what's happened and read it for myself, the stronger my support for her. The politics can wait.

 

[Citizen66]

The fact that you don't recognise trans exclusionary arguments, however coded, doesn't mean to say that they're not there.

Framing it as 'trans-exclusionary' - and therefore bigoted - is surely problematic?