Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[Blagsta]

It was personally aimed at the trans woman already on the thread. It wasn't abstract, it was about her.

I disagree. It was a political discussion. If someone offers up their experiences as the person concerned did, then that's going to be up for discussion. As I said, if they know they're likely to get upset about it, don't offer it up for discussion.

 

[Pickman's model]

I disagree. It was a political discussion. If someone offers up their experiences as the person concerned did, then that's going to be up for discussion. As I said, if they know they're likely to get upset about it, don't offer it up for discussion.

"self-censorship"

 

[cesare]

I disagree. It was a political discussion. If someone offers up their experiences as the person concerned did, then that's going to be up for discussion. As I said, if they know they're likely to get upset about it, don't offer it up for discussion.

Offering up your experiences is a very different thing to being challenged on "born women" spaces. You think she was asking for it Blagsta?

 

[Blagsta]

Offering up your experiences is a very different thing to being challenged on "born women" spaces. You think she was asking for it Blagsta?

Leave off with the "asking for it" insinuation.

 

[cesare]

Leave off with the "asking for it" insinuation.

No. It's not an insinuation, it was a question.

 

[Pickman's model]

Leave off with the "asking for it" insinuation.

it's not an insinuation if it's explicit

 

[Blagsta]

"self-censorship"

There's another person on this thread who feels their experiences have been shut down by the person concerned making it all about themselves. I'll leave it up to them if they want to post about it.

I'm out of here.

The shutting down of debate on here is really shitty.

 

[newbie]

When someone tells the thread that their dysphoria is kicking in, and that it's previously resulted in depression and suicidal ideation - then is a good time to stop deconstructing their identity imo.

this is really quite difficult, isn't it?

AS posted that her gender identity is not "at all political", and I disagreed with her. In doing so I am, to some extent, deconstructing what it means to be her, and that may cause her unhappiness or depression. I certainly hope not, I wish her personally nothing but happiness, and I hope that doesn't sound patronising, I've no idea how to write something that won't be misconstrued.

But hers can only be the last words in the discussion if she is right in her assertion, and I don't think she is. I have no idea how to square that circle without causing some form of potential upset.

 

[Pickman's model]

this is really quite difficult, isn't it?

AS posted that her gender identity is not "at all political", and I disagreed with her. In doing so I am, to some extent, deconstructing what it means to be her, and that may cause her unhappiness or depression. I certainly hope not, I wish her personally nothing but happiness, and I hope that doesn't sound patronising, I've no idea how to write something that won't be misconstrued.

But hers can only be the last words in the discussion if she is right in her assertion, and I don't think she is. I have no idea how to square that circle without causing some form of potential upset.

everyone's identity is political and as no exception

 

[Pickman's model]

...imo of course

 

[cesare]

this is really quite difficult, isn't it?

AS posted that her gender identity is not "at all political", and I disagreed with her. In doing so I am, to some extent, deconstructing what it means to be her, and that may cause her unhappiness or depression. I certainly hope not, I wish her personally nothing but happiness, and I hope that doesn't sound patronising, I've no idea how to write something that won't be misconstrued.

But hers can only be the last words in the discussion if she is right in her assertion, and I don't think she is. I have no idea how to square that circle without causing some form of potential upset.

She's had days of people doing it though. You'd need to ask her of course but is it really that necessary to have your questions answered right now?

 

[newbie]

everyone's identity is political and as no exception

but stating that in this context may promote a feeling of depression in one or more specific people, and I don't suppose that's your intention any more than it is mine. That's why cesare is right, but so are you and I.

 

[newbie]

She's had days of people doing it though. You'd need to ask her of course but is it really that necessary to have your questions answered right now?

someone posts, someone else replies, that's the way these things work. Leaving it for a day, a week, a month and then resurrecting it would seem almost vindictive.

 

[cesare]

someone posts, someone else replies, that's the way these things work. Leaving it for a day, a week, a month and then resurrecting it would seem almost vindictive.

As stethoscope said, she's stopped justifying herself now, people either respect her or not and she doesn't spend time justifying her existence. But AS is relatively new to this and there's a good chance that it's hard for her to disentangle herself from the constant questioning without stopping posting.

 

[newbie]

disrespect and disagreement are not the same thing.

The issue right at the heart of all this is how political is the personal, and that cannot be discussed without, at least to some extent, deconstructing the identity of the people most closely concerned. Other peoples opinions, respectfully put, may cause them pain.

I've no real clue how to proceed- I suppose the only properly respectful way is just stfu, but that leaves the discussion fractured and tends to amplify those who are neither respectful nor polite.

 

[Citizen66]

It could all be solved if everyone started discussing the thread topic as per the op?

 

[newbie]

It could all be solved if everyone started discussing the thread topic as per the op?

because where the thread has arrived at is off limits because it's not political it's personal?

 

[co-op]

this is really quite difficult, isn't it?

AS posted that her gender identity is not "at all political", and I disagreed with her. In doing so I am, to some extent, deconstructing what it means to be her, and that may cause her unhappiness or depression.

stethoscope also completely dismissed AS's point without any explanation

It's not that I think AS was right about this point, just why's it ok for some people to make this kind of challenge to her pov, not for others?


eta - in terms of the particular issue of AS and her emotional state right now, as far as I can tell she has me on ignore but if anyone wants to quote me she'll see my posts so think about that if you are going to.

 

[8ball]

I think non-binary is quite good shorthand for people that don't readily identify as male or female, it's a long list otherwise.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world...

 

[Citizen66]

because where the thread has arrived at is off limits because it's not political it's personal?

If the topic becomes about a subject that relates to individual posters it could be deemed as personal. But I'm just saying it isn't the topic in the op.

 

[newbie]

If the topic becomes about a subject that relates to individual posters it could be deemed as personal. But I'm just saying it isn't the topic in the op.

the latter bit is utterly irrelevant tmm, but the former, yeah, so I'll stfu and see what happens.

 

[ViolentPanda]

so as a white working class male who is CIS (i think) i'll just let all of her non-binary crew and BME fight on without me as i am clearly not wanted in the march toward revolution.

it splits people up this shit.

As cesare and others have noted in this thread, we've already seen identity politics tear the broad left apart once. The fact that people haven't learned from 30 years ago pretty much confirms the old saw that "those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it".

 

[Sea Star]

Firstly I’m not suffering from dysphoria in the least. And yes it is a risk but I really have no intention of shutting the discussion down so I’d rather take a back seat than be in there arguing and trying to defend myself. I don’t feel any need to defend myself – I am very strong now and extremely well supported. Whenever I have doubts about my identity as a woman my partner (a very cis, straight man) just tells me to stop being stupid (in the nicest way. It’s a good base from which to embark on my new life.

I’ve had these arguments for about a year now. If I don’t out myself as trans however I am just treated as a woman; but if I do out myself as trans which I usually do, suddenly it’s a different story and I receive negative responses from some people, roughly equally male and female, though most cis women I meet don’t care that I’m trans and still treat me as another woman, men tend to be more awkward about it tbh, rather than out and out hostile.

Men and women who fit into the binary do not generally have their gender identity challenged. To have universal acceptance of your gender identity and to not even have to think about it is a cis privilege. By all mean discuss this stuff but do realise you are exercising your cis privilege over trans people and don’t be surprised when trans people are unwilling to remain in the discussion.

I am far from a typical trans woman though – being an essentially political person and one who never ever wanted to be a trans activist – I can’t help but wade in and try to make my point of view heard!

The way we express our gender identity is political. The way we interact is political, but our gender identity is not political any more than the number of legs we have or what colour our eyes are. It just is. The fact that for most of my life I was denied the right to express my true gender is political. The fact that now that I am expressing my true gender is not political. It just is.

My gender identity impacts on no-one else’s gender identity unless their gender identity is being used to control others. My gender identity does unfortunately challenge doctrines that refuse or are unable to take my gender identity into consideration. This is not my failing, this is a failing of the doctrine and those who perpetuate it.

I’ve been trying to engage with trans exclusionists since last autumn with the aim of us understanding each others position but too often the TE I’m talking to insists that I first accept that I am a man before we can continue. I cannot accept what I know to be a lie at the very start of a political dialogue.

A gender critical feminist I made contact with last year on Twitter – who I began to consider as a friend – received so much abuse from trans exclusionists just because she was talking to me that she had to block me. Now we remain in contact via email. And yes we do have fundamental contradictions in our viewpoints but we co-exist and we still accept each other as women.

I was not prepared for the out and out hostility I would receive from some other women tbh and it knocked me back a lot. But I still have a mission of mutual understanding if at all possible, I will get there. But I am not going away and I will always be a woman.



Thanks to those who have sent me messages of support, it is deeply, deeply appreciated.

 

[Sea Star]

disrespect and disagreement are not the same thing.

The issue right at the heart of all this is how political is the personal, and that cannot be discussed without, at least to some extent, deconstructing the identity of the people most closely concerned. Other peoples opinions, respectfully put, may cause them pain.

I've no real clue how to proceed- I suppose the only properly respectful way is just stfu, but that leaves the discussion fractured and tends to amplify those who are neither respectful nor polite.

or everyone could just accept that trans people know what gender they are the same as everyone else does. That seems to work.

 

[Sea Star]

There's another person on this thread who feels their experiences have been shut down by the person concerned making it all about themselves. I'll leave it up to them if they want to post about it.

I'm out of here.

The shutting down of debate on here is really shitty.

Is this a coded claim that I tried to shut the debate down? How? I merely removed myself from it. I have that right! Everyone has that right!

There was unfortunately one person on this thread who was trying to make it personal and I chose to ignore those posts rather than rise to it.

I'm hardly trying to make it all about myself, but let's face it, I seem to be the only trans person on this thread so me talking about my own experiences is surely pretty valid, or not?

 

[cesare]

Is this a coded claim that I tried to shut the debate down? How? I merely removed myself from it. I have that right! Everyone has that right!

There was unfortunately one person on this thread who was trying to make it personal and I chose to ignore those posts rather than rise to it.

I think he meant that I was trying to shut debate down, I think it was directed at me rather than you.

Edit: and just to add to that - my response to his accusation is that free speech is fine, but then so is the freedom of response.

 

[Sea Star]

I think he meant that I was trying to shut debate down, I think it was directed at me rather than you.

OK - but again, I don't see how that is true.

 

[cesare]

OK - but again, I don't see how that is true.

I don't think it was true either. I think he didn't like my equal and opposite response to his exercising of free speech.

 

[Sea Star]

I don't think it was true either. I think he didn't like my equal and opposite response to his exercising of free speech.

That fits with the cries of "no platforming" every time a trans woman tried to express an opinion in public.

 

[kabbes]

AS, has a single, solitary person on this thread said that you are a man? If not, why do you keep returning to this frame of reference?

As far as I can tell, the argument has more been about whether or not "being a man" or "being a woman" are actually well defined terms in the first place. And, if so, who gets to make those definitions, and do they help?