are trans-men women?
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- Thread starter Fingers
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are trans-men women?
Thora
Differently Ethical
No, I just don't understand how the term "woman" is being used - what does living as a woman mean?
Thora
Differently Ethical
Who can be a woman then?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
thank you for your input.
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i'm not certain that 'want' or 'decide' is the right way to describe people's experiences of this, being a trans woman doesn't seem to be a lifestyle choice like being vegetarian or only wearing blue.
Thora
Differently Ethical
So what is a woman then?
'Want' could be a true description without being a full one. I guess some trans people have used it to describe their intentions.
it can mean all kinds of things can't it, including identifying as a woman, presenting as a women according to societal norms, legally becoming a woman, describing yourself as a woman, having a women's body/endochrine system etc
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
You've got it backwards I think. Nobody gets to decide what the definition of 'man' or 'woman' is because those words were loaded with implication and cultural baggage long before we came along. But you can look at those two things as they are currently defined and see that the place you've been assigned in that dichotomy is not one you're comfortable with.
I hope that in the future we will have got rid of the idea of gender altogether, but until we're enlightened enough to do that we have to acknowledge that gender roles and gender sterotypes are very powerful things in the world we inhabit. IMO the more people who choose to reject the role they've been assigned and build their own identities instead, the quicker we will get to a point where we don't need any labels for anyone any more.
Thora
Differently Ethical
It seems it means everything and nothing - maybe we don't need feminism at all, women should just all identify as men.
Thora
Differently Ethical
Maybe in the future we will get rid of the idea of gender, but for now I still think being a woman is an actual real thing that has a massive impact on the lives of women and girls. I can't agree that it is something that anyone can choose to be.
It does strike me that the radfems have missed a trick and that the fracturing and challenges to conventional gender is probably the best route out of gender altogether - and that will involves arguments abot toilets, presentations and pronouns because they are the signifiers of gender. it might just be a fad, but if the multitudes of gender the tumblr kids are adopting matures into something more coherent and eventually takes off then that could see the end of gender, in any kind of meaningful sense, within a few generations. perhaps, or perhaps it is all just bollocks, young people are irritating, but sometimes they do get things right in ways you can't actually see if you're not immersed in it. it is astonishing how much social attitudes towards sexuality have changed in just a few decades for example.
are trans-men women?
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
At a purely biological level it's called sex, not gender.
also do you think people choose to be transsexual?
Thora
Differently Ethical
Isn't talking about "living as a woman" as a defining feature of womanhood just reinforcing gender and stereotypical gender roles?
Thora
Differently Ethical
I have no idea what goes on inside other people's heads.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Maybe, but people shouldn't have to spend their whole lives fighting against gender stereotpyes if they don't want to. Maybe it's less about reinforcing things and more about simply accepting them, it's not like gender roles would magically vanish if there were no trans people perpetuating them.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Hold that thought.
Ok. I thought you'd have that definition. It's not the only currently accepted way of using the words though. Just a bit more popular than the nascent attempt to redefine on-white racism as being not racism.
I was/am using it in this sense sense, from the OED:
Males or females viewed as a group; = sex n.1 1. Also: the property or fact of belonging to one of these groups.
Originally extended from the grammatical use at sense 1 (sometimes humorously), as also in Anglo-Norman and Old French. In the 20th cent., as sex came increasingly to mean sexual intercourse (see sex n.1 4b), gender began to replace it (in early use euphemistically) as the usual word for the biological grouping of males and females. It is now often merged with or coloured by sense 3b.
Doubt you're interested in a discussion over who's got more authority to define words. ETA: I know what you mean and I don't think it's an alltogether unhelpful way to use the two words. But it's by no means exclusive one.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
It has been nice to have some men tell me what it means to be a woman though, so thanks for that
But you're the one telling other people that their identities and their experiences aren't valid.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
I would suggest that the power to define words is a source of authority, rather than a privilege derived from it. A topic for another time though perhaps.
joustmaster
offcumdun
I don't think people are choosing to be trans, like its some sort of fashion decision.
They 'are' that gender. Its just they were born with the wrong chromosomes.
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It has been nice to have some men tell me what it means to be a woman though, so thanks for that
well perhaps you can explain what you think it means to be a woman, and also whether you consider that trans-men are women?
Thora
Differently Ethical
Why?
because this is a discussion board and that might help people understand your view that trans-women are not women, or at least be able to decide for themsleves if your position is consistent and coherent. you don't have to though, up to you.
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