Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[joustmaster]

I've already expressed my view that being a woman is an actual thing and I don't agree with the redefinition of woman as something anyone can be. I don't have anything to add.

Do you understand that being a woman, and having certain physical parts, are different things?

 

[smokedout]

I've already expressed my view that being a woman is an actual thing and I don't agree with the redefinition of woman as something anyone can be. I don't have anything to add.

but you still doggedly refuse to answer whether you think trans-men are really women which suggests that your position is neither coherent or consistent, because if you can't 'choose' to be a woman, then surely you can't choose not to be one either

 

[Thora]

but you still doggedly refuse to answer whether you think trans-men are really women which suggests that your position is neither coherent or consistent, because if you can't 'choose' to be a woman, then surely you can't choose not to be one either

I think transmen are transmen just as transwomen are transwomen.

 

[smokedout]

what some sort of weird thirdy thing that doesn't deserve the dignity the rest of us are entitled to?

 

[8den]

Not to divert from what appears to have the potential to be a truly epic urban bunfight, but is she paid or is she a student elected into the office of diversity officer?

If its the later surely there's a mechanism to impeach or recall her?

 

[Thora]

what some sort of weird thirdy thing that doesn't deserve the dignity the rest of us are entitled to?

Is being trans undignified?

 

[8den]

Is being trans undignified?

More to the point is he really saying certain people substandard and should have less rights than the rest of us?

 

[Thora]

More to the point are you really saying certain people substandard and should have less rights than the rest of us?

What do you mean by less rights?

 

[smokedout]

Is being trans undignified?

not undignified, but if it means being excluded from both women only spaces and being at risk in male dominated spaces, when seeking support for dv, or in prisons etc then being trans is not just dangerous but also rendering people as some form of sub or no-gender which is not entitled to the same protections and social norms that the rest of the human population is ie a sub-human

 

[dendrite]

More to the point are you really saying certain people substandard and should have less rights than the rest of us?

Smokedout was the one who just introduced (not saying he suggested it as true) that notion wasn't he?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Not to divert from what appears to have the potential to be a truly epic urban bunfight, but is her paid or is she a student elected into the office of diversity officer?

If its the later surely there's a mechanism to impeach or recall her?

IIRC you get elected in your final year as a student and then you do the job as full-time paid work for the year after you graduate.

 

[Thora]

not undignified, but if it means being excluded from both women only spaces and being at risk in male dominated spaces, when seeking support for dv, or in prisons etc then being trans is not just dangerous but also rendering people as some form of sub or no-gender which is not entitled to the same protections and social norms that the rest of us are

Isn't it important to establish space/support for people who are trans then, rather than force women's spaces to include transpeople? Or even to ensure male-dominated spaces are safe?

 

[8den]

Smokedout was the one who just introduced (not saying he suggested it as true) that notion wasn't he?

This. I edited to post to reflect it Thora. I was referring to smokedout not trying to suggest you thought that. Apologises for confusion.

 

[smokedout]

Isn't it important to establish space/support for people who are trans then, rather than force women's spaces to include transpeople?

what like some kind of apartheid system for the gender-freaks or do trans-men and trans-women get their own separate spaces each?

Or even to ensure male-dominated spaces are safe?

well if that could be done the discussion becomes largely irrelevent, the question is what should happen in the here and now

 

[Thora]

what like some kind of apartheid system for the gender-freaks or do trans-men and trans-women get their own separate spaces each?

I don't know, what do they want?

Men redefining what it means to be a woman and then hassling women to accept transwomen into women only spaces, despite however unsafe it may make women feel, is starting to feel a lot like yet another expression of male power to me.

 

[BigTom]

IIRC you get elected in your final year as a student and then you do the job as full-time paid work for the year after you graduate.

There are paid (sabbatical officers) and unpaid (non-sabbatical officers) roles, occasionally people get elected in their 2nd year too. I dunno which roles are paid and which are unpaid and it may vary from student union to student union anyway.

 

[8den]

IIRC you get elected in your final year as a student and then you do the job as full-time paid work for the year after you graduate.

Thats what I thought. So essentially she's a college employee.

I know there have been similar issues with a student officer when I was in college (though this involved misappropriation of student funds)

Anyway this is moot her term will be up in a few weeks, she'll be gone before any meaningful sanctions can be imposed.

 

[smokedout]

I don't know, what do they want?

Men redefining what it means to be a woman and then hassling women to accept transwomen into women only spaces, despite however unsafe it may make women feel, is starting to feel a lot like yet another expression of male power to me.

except they aren't men, even you acknowledged that

 

[Thora]

except they aren't men, even you acknowledged that

You are a man aren't you?

 

[joustmaster]

I don't know, what do they want?

Men redefining what it means to be a woman and then hassling women to accept transwomen into women only spaces, despite however unsafe it may make women feel, is starting to feel a lot like yet another expression of male power to me.

Men? Do you mean transwomen?

 

[smokedout]

does that preclude me from having an opinion on this?

 

[co-op]

Do you understand that being a woman, and having certain physical parts, are different things?

"Being a woman" can mean either the social role or the biological physical reality of producing eggs/bearing young etc. Completely different things of course. Which do you mean here?

 

[joustmaster]

You are a man aren't you?

These aren't terms pushed out by cis-men. These are from women (trans and cis)

 

[Thora]

Men? Do you mean transwomen?

Men and those born male then.

 

[Thora]

These aren't terms pushed out by cis-men. These are from women (trans and cis)

Aren't you a man too? You and other men seem to have these views - redefining women and no more women-only spaces.

 

[smokedout]

Men and those born male then.

what about trans-men who by and large also support full gender inclusion, is that an expression of male power?

 

[joustmaster]

"Being a woman" can mean either the social role or the biological physical reality of producing eggs/bearing young etc. Completely different things of course. Which do you mean here?

does it matter?
either can be independant of biology.

 

[joustmaster]

Men and those born male then.

what about people who are born and it's not clear, biologically, what sex they are. How are they allowed to identify under your rules?

 

[co-op]

It does strike me that the radfems have missed a trick and that the fracturing and challenges to conventional gender is probably the best route out of gender altogether -.

"Radfems" is derogatory jargon for feminists who question certain claims made by certain trans activists. So by using it you are already dismissing a whole swathe of thinking about this topic by feminists. But even pretty basic familiarity with feminist theory would let you know that far from "missing a trick" here, a very wide spectrum of feminists argued for exactly the fracturing and challenging of conventional gender that you refer to.

 

[smokedout]

Aren't you a man too? You and other men seem to have these views - redefining women and no more women-only spaces.

lots of people, men and women have these views. also if womanhood is redefined by including people who are trans then that in no way supports ending women only spaces, if just means supporting women only spaces being open to all women