Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[joustmaster]

Aren't you a man too? You and other men seem to have these views - redefining women and no more women-only spaces.

I am just putting across the view that my trans friends have explained to me.
I'm cis-male and, although I have my opinions, they are formed from listening to women, trans and cis.

 

[co-op]

does it matter?
either can be independant of biology.

Now you've confused me. How is the biological physical reproductive system of a woman "independent of biology"?

 

[Pickman's model]

Thats what I thought. So essentially she's a college employee.

I know there have been similar issues with a student officer when I was in college (though this involved misappropriation of student funds)

Anyway this is moot her term will be up in a few weeks, she'll be gone before any meaningful sanctions can be imposed.

no, she's not a college employee. she is one of the sabbatical officers who runs the su. and the no confidence procedure was detailed in the evening standard the other day. in addition you can stand to be a sabbatical officer at any point in your college career, and not just in your final one.

 

[smokedout]

"Radfems" is derogatory jargon for feminists who question certain claims made by certain trans activists. So by using it you are already dismissing a whole swathe of thinking about this topic by feminists. But even pretty basic familiarity with feminist theory would let you know that far from "missing a trick" here, a very wide spectrum of feminists argued for exactly the fracturing and challenging of conventional gender that you refer to.

the people I'm talking about call themselves radfems, or radical feminists, by and large. I'm aware that a lot of other feminists do not think the same way, perhaps trans-exclusionary radical feminist would have been more correct

 

[joustmaster]

Now you've confused me. How is the biological physical reproductive system of a woman "independent of biology"?

Some women are born without.

 

[Thora]

lots of people, men and women have these views. also if womanhood is redefined by including people who are trans then that in no way supports ending women only spaces, if just means supporting women only spaces being open to all women

Women only spaces also open to biological males?

 

[co-op]

lots of people, men and women have these views. also if womanhood is redefined by including people who are trans then that in no way supports ending women only spaces, if just means supporting women only spaces being open to all women

This doesn't make sense. You're saying that women-only spaces will still exist, so long as women accept that men who want to be/'have become' women are allowed in. When the whole debate is about whether that now constitutes a women-only space.

 

[co-op]

Some women are born without.

Indeed, and there are intersex and other groups. But I think you're ducking the point here.

 

[Thora]

So someone who is biologically male and appears to be male, should be welcomed into women only spaces if they identify as a woman

 

[smokedout]

This doesn't make sense. You're saying that women-only spaces will still exist, so long as women accept that men who want to be/'have become' women are allowed in. When the whole debate is about whether that now constitutes a women-only space.

well yes, if you accept trans-women as women, if thats what redefining womanhood means then women only spaces continue. if these are spaces which actually contain men then you havent redefined womanhood. the two positions are inconcistent, thats all I was pointing out.

 

[co-op]

the people I'm talking about call themselves radfems, or radical feminists, by and large. I'm aware that a lot of other feminists do not think the same way, perhaps trans-exclusionary radical feminist would have been more correct

I'm not going to defend "TERFs" because again I think this is an unhelpful term since it encompasses a wide variety of opinions, some of them pretty weird. But the idea that women *must* accept that trans people are women seems really questionable to me.

 

[co-op]

well yes, if you accept trans-women as women, if thats what redefining womanhood means then women only spaces continue. if these are spaces which actually contain men then you havent redefined womanhood. the two positions are inconcistent, thats all I was pointing out.

And if you are demanding that men have the right to become women, how are you "fracturing and challenging" conventional gender roles? Why not say "men have the right to be whoever they want to be and so do women"?

Men who want to "be women" often appear to be desperately upholding conventional gender roles, merely altering their own individual placement within them.

 

[smokedout]

I'm not going to defend "TERFs" because again I think this is an unhelpful term since it encompasses a wide variety of opinions, some of them pretty weird. But the idea that women *must* accept that trans people are women seems really questionable to me.

no-one has to accept anything, the question is should we, as society, grant the same rights to all people who live as and identify as and are a particular gender

 

[smokedout]

And if you are demanding that men have the right to become women, how are you "fracturing and challenging" conventional gender roles? Why not say "men have the right to be whoever they want to be and so do women"?

I said it was the tumblr kids doing that not me.

 

[Thora]

no-one has to accept anything, the question is should we, as society, grant the same rights to all people who live as and identify as and are a particular gender

Surely that should include the rights of woman (born women) to have safe spaces away from people born men?

 

[smokedout]

So someone who is biologically male and appears to be male, should be welcomed into women only spaces if they identify as a woman

I think some common sense should be applied and that if someones lives as a woman, presents as a woman and identifies as a woman then yes. I'm not seeing crowds of cis-men queuing up to try and pretend to be trans to access women only spaces, if that starts presenting itself as a phenomena then perhaps things need to be rethought

 

[Artaxerxes]

Surely that should include the rights of woman (born women) to have safe spaces away from people born men?

I think the point here is that trans-women are women who were born men but identify as women, so see no harm in also accessing those spaces.

But this is way out of my area of expertise here.

 

[Sirena]

So someone who is biologically male and appears to be male, should be welcomed into women only spaces if they identify as a woman

That's the big problem, I think, and one that needs sense on both sides because the transition path is a long one and can take many years until the hormones take effect and, perhaps, the surgery is completed.

But that sort of sense seems hard to come by, especially since the first gauntlet was thrown down by early feminists and continues to be thrown down again and again as decades pass. So both sides take stances and reasonable compromise goes out of the window.

I know post-operative m/f transsexuals whom no-one would suspect as anything other than born women. But I have known others at the start of their journey whose presence is very masculine.

 

[Thora]

I think some common sense should be applied and that if someones lives as a woman, presents as a woman and identifies as a woman then yes. I'm not seeing crowds of cis-men queuing up to try and pretend to be trans to access women only spaces, if that starts presenting itself as a phenomena then perhaps things need to be rethought

You're going back to these stereotyped views of what it is to be a woman - what does "lives as a woman" and "presents as a woman" even mean?

Should there be someone on the door of women only spaces deciding if biological males look and behave feminine enough to get in?

Are the views of women (born women) completely irrelevant now

 

[smokedout]

Surely that should include the rights of woman (born women) to have safe spaces away from people born men?

even if that means trans-women have no safe spaces at all? and how do you tell in many cases, genital groping, demanding to see birth certificates?

 

[Thora]

even if that means trans-women have no safe spaces at all? and how do you tell in many cases, genital groping, demanding to see birth certificates?

Why can't transwomen create their own safe spaces? Why is it falling to women?

 

[Dowie]

Isn't it important to establish space/support for people who are trans then, rather than force women's spaces to include transpeople? Or even to ensure male-dominated spaces are safe?

then you'd be treating transpeople differently, it isn't like they chose to be trans... they're women trapped in a mans body and struggle enough for acceptance - banning them from women only spaces because some other women have an issue with transwomen is a bit dubious. It is like saying that you realise they have to be accepted but since they're not proper women and some women are a bit funny about them then they really shouldn't be there - surely it is the other women who are the issue in that case.

 

[joustmaster]

Why can't transwomen create their own safe spaces? Why is it falling to women?

because transwomen are women.
its not a binary thing.

 

[Dowie]

Why can't transwomen create their own safe spaces? Why is it falling to women?

because they are women too and would like to be accepted as women

 

[smokedout]

You're going back to these stereotyped views of what it is to be a woman - what does "lives as a woman" and "presents as a woman" even mean?

they are the signifiers of gender in the society we live in unfortunately, and yes it is difficult, hence the call for common sense.

Should there be someone on the door of women only spaces deciding if biological males look and behave feminine enough to get in?

Are the views of women (born women) completely irrelevant now

you seem to be assuming that all non-trans women share your view

 

[Treacle Toes]

In the context of this discussion I think it'd be easier if people actually say what they personally don't perceive a woman to be and what in their view they believe the risk to be/why it would be unsafe to welcome trans women into women only spaces?

 

[dendrite]

In the context of this discussion I think it'd be easier if people actually say what they personally don't perceive a woman to be and what in their view they believe the risk to be/why it would be unsafe to welcome trans women into women only spaces?

Are you proposing this as some sort of safe space for subjective impressions? We had an amnesty for unpopular opinions on my spurs forum and it worked ok. Or are we going to lunge at each other's throats with razors if our perceptions turn out to be misperceptions?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Are you proposing this as some sort of safe space for subjective impressions? We had an amnesty for unpopular opinions on my spurs forum and it worked ok. Or are we going to lunge at each other's throats with razors if our perceptions turn out to be misperceptions?

Good questions and pretty much why I suspect there is a reluctance to be emphatic about any of it. I do though think that without that clarity the conversation will continue to be a circular, ambiguous one.

 

[8den]

does that preclude me from having an opinion on this?

When you label transgender people as "freaks". I started to consider your opinion on this matter worthless.

 

[8den]

no, she's not a college employee. she is one of the sabbatical officers who runs the su. and the no confidence procedure was detailed in the evening standard the other day. in addition you can stand to be a sabbatical officer at any point in your college career, and not just in your final one.

Thank you for the clarification.