dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
Outside of some work places and formal occasions you can for the most part.
Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack
- Thread starter Fingers
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Outside of some work places and formal occasions you can for the most part.
Thora
Differently Ethical
So what is being a woman then, a feeling? A feeling shared by all women?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that's not answering my question but rather a lazy way to carry on.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I haven't seen any "trans phobia" on this thread nor have I seen the trans state referred to as a choice. Can you show where you think this has happened?
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
Here was a reasonable discussion that touched on the issues being so heatedly debated on this thread: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...oncile-itself-with-transgender-issues.323069/
you could ask that regardless of born gender - how does *any* individual woman know that what she feels is what every other woman feels - why get so hung up on sexual organs. Sure a trans woman is going to miss out on periods and pregnancy but is also going to have a whole bunch of other challenges.
some people have issues with chromosomes, for some it is perhpas psychological but then again there may be some evidence it is physiological too.. bottom line is 'women trapped in a man's body' means exactly that.
women might seek segregation from men because there is a history of sexual violence and dominance of men towards women - as far as I'm aware there isn't a history of violence and sexual dominance of trans women towards women. Surely women objecting to trans women being in women only spaces are the ones who perhaps need to compromise as it is their position that would be based on irrational fear/prejudice... I realise this is a potential straw man but suppose a bunch of heterosexual men objected to gay men being in a male only space - I think it should be the people from the majority group with the lack of tolerance that need to change/compromise rather than the people from the minority group who are already oppressed enough.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
and if we were talking about f2m trans it'd be men who needed to compromise. you do know no one always gets their own way in life, right?
(edit)Well yes any women trans or otherwise don't necessarily feel the same... so why exclude trans women on that basis
Though I had thought that transgender people had been around for long enough that the actual concept itself was generally accepted by medical professionals, psychologists etc.. wasn't still open to general skepticism. Then again perhaps that is just reflective of the issues trans people still face.
Though I had thought that transgender people had been around for long enough that the actual concept itself was generally accepted by medical professionals, psychologists etc.. wasn't still open to general skepticism. Then again perhaps that is just reflective of the issues trans people still face.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Because a large part of feminist theory has been about the evolution of the female role as secondary and inferior and that has been informed by discussion about how men have sought to control womens' bodies and their reproductivity. This can't just be dismissed as "hang up about sexual organs" - any more than a trans persons desire to have their sexual organs altered can be dismissed as "hang up".
Secondly - massive parts of this issue are about how you are raised - as a woman or as man; and that's just a done deal by the time you are an adult.
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
I don't know.
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
I doubt that, if I walk down the street in a tutu and wellies I'm getting nicked
since when have women been secondary and inferior to trans women? Your point applies to men not trans women, as far as trans women are concerned the sexual organs are, or at lest should be, irrelevant. Women being treated as secondary and inferior has nothing to do with trans women, nor have trans women sought to control women's bodies or their reproductivity, so I think dismissing irrational fears of trans women as a hang up about sexual organs is fine in that context.
Unless you're saying you consider trans women to be men I don't see how those points you raise about men are in any way relevant.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I thought it was obvious that I mean "inferior to men", apologies if that wasn't clear.
Do you see how being socialised as a man (as a mtf trans person is) - might mean behaving like a man? EG making demands on women, expecting women to "compromise" etc etc. Why do you think the equivalent controversy doesn't come about with ftm trans people and men?
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
Where?
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
Well, perhaps not nicked, but certainly stared at and ostracised by my peers.
Don't get me started on work clothes, having to wear shirt and ties pisses me right off.
it was clear - I just don't see how it is relevant as trans women are not men
some women are 'tomboys' as kids, some trans women have known from an early age that they're the wrong gender
Accepting trans people has nothing to do with 'compromise' it is just accepting trans people... trying to portray them as lesser women because they were socialised as a man early in life or they may or may not still have different sexual organ isn't accepting them.
as for ftm trans people - there are less of them and I'm not sure there are many shelters for men, I'm sure they have had issues with things like changing rooms etc..
I think anyone with hangups about trans people is being a bit irrational, I thought it was widely accepted that they are genuine and do exist... though it seems like some people even on here are still viewing it as more of a fad or lifestyle choice or question whether, in the male to female case, they're really 'women' because how could they possibly know what being a woman is like etc.. they may have been raised as men ergo they're lesser women and other women might want to exclude them.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
My feelings about "being a woman" come from being assigned female at birth (not controversial in my case as it wasn't a controversial decision) and being socialised as one throughout my life so far.
Personally I'd say that the needs of trans* women and cis women are often different, and sometimes conflicting or competing. No amount of wishing things were different will make them so, and resolving that conflict isn't going to be done by dismissing the arguments of any opposed women as irrational or transphobic.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I think trans* people probably have additional needs especially during transition. But I don't know because I'm not trans*. It would be polite to ask though.
I agree with Thora and I agree with many of the posters arguing against Thora. That's what makes it so hard.
Mostly, however, I agree with every single thing co-op has said on this subject.
Seems to me that the layers of the onion start with the idea that it should be okay to reject your socially-imposed gender but ideally the next layer should be a rejection of the notion of socially-imposed gender at all. Saying that you accept socialised gender and just want to reassign your position in respect of it is a fundamentally reactionary position that may provide you personally with a short-term solution of sorts but surely just ingrains the actual long-term problem?
None of which rejects the idea that a feeling of displacement against your socially-defined role is both genuine and enormously difficult.
Mostly, however, I agree with every single thing co-op has said on this subject.
Seems to me that the layers of the onion start with the idea that it should be okay to reject your socially-imposed gender but ideally the next layer should be a rejection of the notion of socially-imposed gender at all. Saying that you accept socialised gender and just want to reassign your position in respect of it is a fundamentally reactionary position that may provide you personally with a short-term solution of sorts but surely just ingrains the actual long-term problem?
None of which rejects the idea that a feeling of displacement against your socially-defined role is both genuine and enormously difficult.
are you transsexual?
well they don't by and large do they. and as a very small section of the population then a trans-women's refuge would probably not be viable except in very large cities like London. so what you're actually asking trans women to do is near impossble, even if you believe that trans-women should be segregated when it comes to support services like hostels etc. effectively your saying society will provide spaces for non-trans-women, but trans-women need to set up their own services and if they can't, or haven't done that tough shit.
you also seem to share the view that no non-trans woman would want a woman in their spaces, which is clearly bollcks as many non-trans women are strong advocates for that, and it happens, all the time without incident, everytime someone trans uses a public toilet for example.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Do those who want to maintain some dependence on biology with regard to their identity, have a right to demand their own spaces, even if they do so while making no proscription over what others may choose to do?
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
joustmaster
offcumdun
People can pretty do much whatever they want. Its if they should.
to be clear about what is being supported, lets take the other example to Thora's trans-person who 'looks like a man'. What if someone transitioned 30 years ago, has had full surgery, is unrecognisible in every way from what society perceive as a woman, is legally a woman, lives as a woman in daily life in terms of appearance, pronouns etc, that people think of as a woman and may not even know she was once trans
are you really saying that if she needs to access a womens hostel, or rape counselling she can't, she has to disclose her past to everyone and then gets excluded from services? isn't that just plain bigotry? or can someone explain why it would be so imortant to keep someone who is a woman, with a woman's body, out of women's spaces which in the here and now has the result of them being denied services for things they face such as domestic abuse, sexual abuse etc
are you really saying that if she needs to access a womens hostel, or rape counselling she can't, she has to disclose her past to everyone and then gets excluded from services? isn't that just plain bigotry? or can someone explain why it would be so imortant to keep someone who is a woman, with a woman's body, out of women's spaces which in the here and now has the result of them being denied services for things they face such as domestic abuse, sexual abuse etc
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
I think that's probably true but, despite the fact that recent legal/social attitude changes are supposed to make us more tolerant of each other, there will still be rocky areas.
Thora made the point that she is a born woman and Rutita took her (gently) to task by saying that that implies an 'authority' over non born women. AuntiStella has only recently transitioned (if I remember these boards correctly) and has chosen to stay in her previous employment. She has said she has experienced difficulties but that is only to be expected because of her situation. She will not get everything all at once, she will get bits and pieces and gradually those pieces will combine and then everything will be nice. That's the way of life.
There's a nice philosophical line from 'The Second Sex' by Simone de Beauvoir (1973) which goes 'One is not born a woman, one becomes a woman'. We are all born babies and then gradually we acquire the outward trappings of our sex -the social stuff - and the social stuff brings with it certain statuses and lack of them.
Those who take strong positions are wrong, I think.
For a m/f transsexual (I mean someone on a life path to change their apparent sex as well as their gender - not anyone else on the spectrum) to expect perfection at the first step is unreasonable. Their whole presence will probably still be that of a man because they will still look and sound quite manly. As the years pass, the medication will take effect and things will become easier. For them, womanhood is not a trophy they can claim at the first step, it is a journey with no end.
For a woman to draw a line at 'born women' is also unreasonable. There are thousands of post-operative transsexuals in society that no-one knows about, even if they take their clothes off. They are women, indistinguishable from 'born women'. The special clinic at Charing Cross Hospital opened nearly 50 years ago and has been treating maybe 100, maybe 200 patients a year. That's possibly 10,000 from one hospital alone. Male teenagers who went there in the early days are now little old ladies collecting their pensions!
This is just a live-and-let-live argument.
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