Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[killer b]

You can successfully ensure everyone gets the opportunity to contribute without resorting to intersectionalism as is practiced by divisive whiney fuckwits.

How do we get rid of the divisive whiney fuckwits?

 

[Citizen66]

How do we get rid of the divisive whiney fuckwits?

Add it as a spoke on the power side of the wheel of oppression.

 

[BigMoaner]

How do we get rid of the divisive whiney fuckwits?

by getting rid of capitalism and building true communities. then all this identity political stuff will evaporate (or that's the theory anyway ?)

 

[killer b]

I was hoping for something involving lime-pits.

 

[BigMoaner]

I was hoping for something involving lime-pits.

not gonna happen.

 

[DotCommunist]

I was hoping for something involving lime-pits.

or just send them off to do the seasonal picking/winkle harvest/etc

its what the chairman would have done

 

[Pickman's model]

or just send them off to do the seasonal picking/winkle harvest/etc

its what the chairman would have done

canals all round

 

[BigMoaner]

start with a twit, end with genocide. classic urban.

 

[Pickman's model]

start with a twit, end with genocide. classic urban.

genocide?

 

[Athos]

No I haven't - please quote my posts using the quote facility rather than making things up... I've not said there is no difference between trans women and cis women.*

I've pointed out several times that trans women are not men - they are women*! You keep trying to justify your position by referring to men and oppression carried out by men. Is there actual evidence of trans women oppressing women? If not then is it not a massive assumption to assume that because men have oppressed women and some/lots of trans women were born in male bodies (others have some medical issue or are born with some ambiguity) then that is relevant to trans women. If anything it is cis women who hold a position of power and privilege over trans women.

(*for the sake of clarity - both cis and trans women are women - stating that trans women are women too(not men) doesn't imply that there is no difference between them and cis women which you seem to be claiming I have said)

Yes, but, for the purposes of 'women only spaces' some cis women do not consider trans women to be women; they consider them to be men. So the issue of women's oppression by men remains central. For the question to become an issue of cis women's oppression by trans women, those 'trans sceptic' cis women would have to accept your assertion that trans women are women. But, however many times you've pointed it out, some cis women have the audacity to disagree with you about a how their own gender should be defined.

 

[Sea Star]

Women's refuges or rape crisis support groups.

and that's the attitude that left me with no support when i was raped.

 

[Sea Star]

Yes, I'm sure there is a lack of support (and indeed a lack of support for men who have experienced rape and DV) but I'm not sure asking women to give up some space is the way to address it.

Giving up what space? I'm a woman and I should be allowed in women's spaces.

 

[Sea Star]

Yes, but, for the purposes of 'women only spaces' some cis women do not consider trans women to be women; they consider them to be men. So the issue of women's oppression by men remains central. For the question to become an issue of cis women's oppression by trans women, those 'trans sceptic' cis women would have to accept your assertion that trans women are women. But, however many times you've pointed it out, some cis women have the audacity to disagree with you about a how their own gender should be defined.

How about trans women having the audacity to disagree about how our own gender should be defined? By us, not others!!

 

[Sea Star]

I agree - they should be optional tho, rather than it being the default policy that trans women are kept out. Its very hard to find a solution to this and i dont think the more extreme people on both sides are really representative. I think theres also a lack of understanding/support for trans people facing that sort of crisis too, and if a womens refuge is the only place that can provide that i dont think the policy should just be to say no. There are some feminists who use these sort of concerns as a way to excuse very nasty views on trans people generally speaking.

We're either women or we're not women. Any other approach is to say we are partial women which is demeaning, offensive and damaging!

 

[Sea Star]

Why wouldn't they be appropriate for men who might have undergone dv or suffered rape?

You're intent on equating trans women with men. Trans women are women.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

How about trans women having the audacity to disagree about how our own gender should be defined? By us, not others!!

AS you can see how that works both ways; i.e. some cis women having the audacity to disagree about how their own gender should be defined? By them, not others!!

It would seem to be a fundamental challenge for identity politics, where Identity is self defined.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Louis MacNeice]

We're either women or we're not women. Any other approach is to say we are partial women which is demeaning, offensive and damaging!

Or that there are many different ways of being men and and women that are not more or less mannish or womanish, just different.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Sea Star]

Men are not usually subject to misogynist harassment or abuse and fetishisation by women hating bastards. Men are not usually targeted by misogynists. That is one reason why I am not a man.

Also I have never identified as male and if anyone has the right to call themselves a "born woman" then I do as much as anyone else! To deny me my gender identity - which is not something I choose but something I've had to deal with since I was aged 4 - is prejudice and bigotry and should be called out as such!

 

[Sea Star]

Or that there are many different ways of being men and and women that are not more or less mannish or womanish, just different.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

you've not said anything I disgree with - just reinforced my own points. so what other sort of women should be excluded? Should all trans women be excluded or are some trans women better than others? I think we need to know!

 

[Sea Star]

AS you can see how that works both ways; i.e. some cis women having the audacity to disagree about how their own gender should be defined? By them, not others!!

It would seem to be a fundamental challenge for identity politics, where Identity is self defined.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

that was my point. but the women who exlcude trans women seem intent on defining womanhood for all women not just for themselves.

 

[Athos]

How about trans women having the audacity to disagree about how our own gender should be defined? By us, not others!!

Yeah, that too. And that's the point at which the difficulty arises. I don't think either point of view can be dismissed with a bold assertion, though (as seemed to be the case in the post I was responding to).

 

[Athos]

Men are not usually subject to misogynist harassment or abuse and fetishisation by women hating bastards. Men are not usually targeted by misogynists. That is one reason why I am not a man.

Also I have never identified as male and if anyone has the right to call themselves a "born woman" then I do as much as anyone else! To deny me my gender identity - which is not something I choose but something I've had to deal with since I was aged 4 - is prejudice and bigotry and should be called out as such!

Experience of oppression and self identification are certainly two of a number of competing bases for defining gender, but who's to say they should trump others?

 

[Sea Star]

Experience of oppression and self identification are certainly two of a number of competing bases for defining gender, but who's to say they should trump others?

I would say self identification was key, and experience is up there. Genitals, however, count for very little.

 

[Athos]

that was my point. but the women who exlcude trans women seem intent on defining womanhood for all women not just for themselves.

Not really. They aren't stopping trans women from using their own definition of womanhood, or from identifying themselves as women, but are simply saying that they don't identify trans women as women. From which it follows that trans women won't be allowed to enter spaces in which the 'gatekeepers' conception of womanhood is a precondition.

I suppose it boils down to whether cis women have the right to define their own gender for the purposes of their own groups, and whether that should be trumped by trans women's right to insist that others identify them as they identify themselves, and to insist on entry to women only places on that basis, despite the negative consequences of that for some cis women.

 

[cesare]

Not really. They aren't stopping trans women from using their own definition of womanhood, or from identifying themselves as women, but are simply saying that they don't identify trans women as women. From which it follows that trans women won't be allowed to enter spaces in which the 'gatekeepers' conception of womanhood is a precondition.

I suppose it boils down to whether cis women have the right to define their own gender for the purposes of their own groups, and whether that should be trumped by trans women's right to insist that others identify them as they identify themselves, and to insist on entry to women only places on that basis, despite the negative consequences of that for some cis women.

Only a subset of cis women feel they have the right to define their own gender for the purposes of their own groups.

 

[Athos]

I would say self identification was key, and experience is up there. Genitals, however, count for very little.

For what it's worth, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But I have to accept that, as a man, it's not up to me.

 

[Sea Star]

Yeah, that too. And that's the point at which the difficulty arises. I don't think either point of view can be dismissed with a bold assertion, though (as seemed to be the case in the post I was responding to).

How does me asserting my womanhood interfere with their self identification as women in any way at all? Why should I be excluded by a minority of women who have a theoretical basis for womanhood that is unsupported by and in conflict with all the evidence?

 

[Sea Star]

For what it's worth, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But I have to accept that, as a man, it's not up to me.

it isn't is it?

 

[Athos]

Only a subset of cis women feel they have the right to define their own gender for the purposes of their own groups.

Fair point.

 

[Athos]

it isn't is it?

No. And I'm not seeking to, am I?