God and religion

[BandWagon]

http://clergyproject.org/

That's a really nice link. I'm glad that the problem has been recognised and help is available.

 

[CNT36]

That's a really nice link. I'm glad that the problem has been recognised and help is available.

It is all a a bit:

 

[trabuquera]

Personally I am a deeply convinced agnostic and believe any and all religion should be strictly kept out of education, law or government - and yes, that includes Buddhists and yoga-mongers and 'mindfulness'-touters as well as fundamentalist Catholics/Prods/Jews/Muslims. Religion nearly always works to the detriment of women and the weakest in society so those are two other extremely compelling reasons to reject it altogether.

I was lucky enough to be brought up by atheists within a weakly Anglican environment so I got the cultural benefit of the "stories" (all that Bible-centric art, literature and philosophy) without suffering too much for not BELIEVING in any of it.

I'd love it if the rest of the world came around to my way of thinking But my principles are tested by many things. You could say I'm plagued by doubts ...
- if religion is so inherently illogical (if not stupid) then how come it hasn't died out already? why didn't the Enlightenment just call time on it and done?

- people are obviously capable of great kindness/great crimes regardless of their cultural context, but it is noticeable that even in societies where generation(s) were brought up without religion, or religion was even punished, as soon as the repression lifted, people (not all but many) drifted back to it. Why? is it simply that religions act like private therapy? make us feel more 'grounded' or more able to deal with our fate, which is otherwise too bleak or meaningless to accept? Or is it just that people like meeting up for tea, biscuits and singing and the social role of religion is what we are actually most keen on?

- regardless of its big "truth" issues, shouldn't we look at the thing the other way round - something like, we humans are too mentally weak and clannish and bonkers (with those possible "god spots" in the brain etc - design faults if ever I heard of them) to do without religion and that's why it spontaneously generates in all human societies thus far? that whether or not there's a god, or a jesus, or sin or seven hells or reincarnation, that humans inherently need some sort of belief system to reconcile their 'humane' feelings (about envy/justice/jealousy/violence) and the inhumane violence and scarcity of survival? is religion just a way to make life bearable until the interwebs come along?

 

[BandWagon]

Personally I am a deeply convinced agnostic and believe any and all religion should be strictly kept out of education, law or government - and yes, that includes Buddhists and yoga-mongers and 'mindfulness'-touters as well as fundamentalist Catholics/Prods/Jews/Muslims. Religion nearly always works to the detriment of women and the weakest in society so those are two other extremely compelling reasons to reject it altogether.

I was lucky enough to be brought up by atheists within a weakly Anglican environment so I got the cultural benefit of the "stories" (all that Bible-centric art, literature and philosophy) without suffering too much for not BELIEVING in any of it.

I'd love it if the rest of the world came around to my way of thinking But my principles are tested by many things. You could say I'm plagued by doubts ...
- if religion is so inherently illogical (if not stupid) then how come it hasn't died out already? why didn't the Enlightenment just call time on it and done?

- people are obviously capable of great kindness/great crimes regardless of their cultural context, but it is noticeable that even in societies where generation(s) were brought up without religion, or religion was even punished, as soon as the repression lifted, people (not all but many) drifted back to it. Why? is it simply that religions act like private therapy? make us feel more 'grounded' or more able to deal with our fate, which is otherwise too bleak or meaningless to accept? Or is it just that people like meeting up for tea, biscuits and singing and the social role of religion is what we are actually most keen on?

- regardless of its big "truth" issues, shouldn't we look at the thing the other way round - something like, we humans are too mentally weak and clannish and bonkers (with those possible "god spots" in the brain etc - design faults if ever I heard of them) to do without religion and that's why it spontaneously generates in all human societies thus far? that whether or not there's a god, or a jesus, or sin or seven hells or reincarnation, that humans inherently need some sort of belief system to reconcile their 'humane' feelings (about envy/justice/jealousy/violence) and the inhumane violence and scarcity of survival? is religion just a way to make life bearable until the interwebs come along?

Religion persists because it's pounded into people's heads when they're too young to think critically. If that stopped then it would die out. Trouble is, you can't stop it.

 

[gimesumtruf]

Which god. when, why?
You can have faith that there will be a tomorrow.

 

[spanglechick]

Which god. when, why?
You can have faith that there will be a tomorrow.

i have evidence and understanding that leads me to know there will be a tomorrow. my chances of seeing it, is a matter of probability based on my understanding of causes of death in women of my age and health. None of this is faith.

 

[gimesumtruf]

Which god. when, why?

 

[BandWagon]

i have evidence and understanding that leads me to know there will be a tomorrow. my chances of seeing it, is a matter of probability based on my understanding of causes of death in women of my age and health. None of this is faith.

Maybe what he's saying is that if you believe in god and an afterlife, then even if you die tonight you will still see tomorrow.

On the other hand, maybe it's nonsense.

 

[spanglechick]

Which god. when, why?

no gods. never. irrelevant and enormously unlikely.

 

[BandWagon]

There is a good point here: which god?

There are dozens of religions, and within them, hundreds of sects. There are around 20 different islamic sects, I think, and I read somewhere that there are 30,000 christian sects. I don't know if that's true.

They can't all be right because they preach different things, so all but one must be wrong. Which one is right, if any is? You can't tell, because there is no proof for any of them.

The alternative way of looking at it is that they are all right, but incomplete and riddled with error, because they are attempts by humans to understand something which is unknowable.

My opinion? It's all a load of c***.

 

[weltweit]

What was that quote, any sufficiently advanced civilisation appearing to an unadvanced one will seem like a deity.

 

[BandWagon]

'I am married to Jesus': Consecrated virgin, 38, marries God in wedding ceremony that attracts hundreds

• High school teacher Jessica Hayes, 38, held her unusual wedding at Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Fort Wayne, Indiana
• The bride said she changed her mind about her bridal dress many times
• 'I really wanted to make sure that I was well-covered in a way that still shows the beauty of a bride,' she explained
• She also wore nude heels and had her shoulder-length hair curled for the special occasion
• The huge congregation mainly consisted of strangers
• Hayes is one of 230 consecrated virgins in the US who have vowed to never have sex or marry

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ceremony-attracts-hundreds.html#ixzz3jChTY7Ef

 

[weltweit]

Probably not the right thread but:

The Scottish Catholic Church has apologies to abuse survivors!

Well that makes it all right then.

 

[BandWagon]

Probably not the right thread but:

The Scottish Catholic Church has apologies to abuse survivors!

Well that makes it all right then.

Should jail the f******

 

[8den]

Never trust anyone who says "What God meant to say is".

 

[Gromit]

'I am married to Jesus': Consecrated virgin

Every woman* dreams of having a fairy tale wedding one day. Can't get a real man? Marry an imaginary one.
Who are the church to refuse their lovely warm cash?

* Generalising cliche

 

[Gromit]

Never trust anyone who says "What God meant to say is".

Never trust anyone who says "Never trust anyone who says:"

 

[8den]

Never trust anyone who claims they produced Jaws 3D

 

[Humberto]

There is a good point here: which god?

The one which prevails in your country usually.

There are dozens of religions, and within them, hundreds of sects. There are around 20 different islamic sects, I think, and I read somewhere that there are 30,000 christian sects. I don't know if that's true.

Really? Not surprised by the Christian sect numbers, although I wonder what the difference is and why there are only dozens in Islam and tens of 000s in Christianity.

They can't all be right because they preach different things, so all but one must be wrong. Which one is right, if any is? You can't tell, because there is no proof for any of them.

Don't go in for it myself. Listen to some dick preaching a sermon when you could learn more off google investigation, followed by some shit songs and giving them money for it. I may be wrong or missing out but as you say which one do you sign up for and hold your nose at the shit you disagree with?

The alternative way of looking at it is that they are all right, but incomplete and riddled with error, because they are attempts by humans to understand something which is unknowable.

Maybe there is still more to be debated and learned from these texts. I think there well could be, but perhaps they should be ridiculed more thoroughly, neither way is the easy way though so expect them to linger on and still be having similar discussions in 20 30 years.

My opinion? It's all a load of c***.

Should have just said crap instead of making everyone think of the c word. That is codswallop.

 

[BandWagon]

Humberto said:

The one which prevails in your country usually.

Well, there are sizeable minority religions to choose from too.

Really? Not surprised by the Christian sect numbers, although I wonder what the difference is and why there are only dozens in Islam and tens of 000s in Christianity.

I'm no expert but isn't the koran supposed to be the literal word of god, and therefore not subject to interpretation?

Don't go in for it myself. Listen to some dick preaching a sermon when you could learn more off google investigation, followed by some shit songs and giving them money for it. I may be wrong or missing out but as you say which one do you sign up for and hold your nose at the shit you disagree with?

None in my case...

Maybe there is still more to be debated and learned from these texts. I think there well could be, but perhaps they should be ridiculed more thoroughly, neither way is the easy way though so expect them to linger on and still be having similar discussions in 20 30 years.

Absolutely

Should have just said crap instead of making everyone think of the c word. That is codswallop.

I thought it was self-evident, but suit yourself.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Personally I am a deeply convinced agnostic

You are deeply convinced that you are not convinced?

 

[trabuquera]

^ I am deeply convinced that it's impossible for the human brain / human being to fully understand, much less KNOW, what is really going on in the universe...

 

[gentlegreen]

^ I am deeply convinced that it's impossible for the human brain / human being to fully understand, much less KNOW, what is really going on in the universe...

What is really going on ?
You mean quantum mechanics and cosmology ?

 

[Gromit]

I was watching a satire show last night where this guy was taking the piss out of tele-evanglists and their seed faith methods of extracting money from vulnerable people.

Some of them are telling people with cancer don't go to doctors, no send your seeds (money) to us and God will heal you.
Others are saying Credit card debt? Send your money to us and God will miracle your debt away.

You give a little seed of faith (in the form of money) to God and he grows it and you get back more in return. The more seeds you plant the more you get.

The people doing this are living in mansions and buying jets for cash. They even brag about it as they hold themselves up as proof of success for Seed Faith.

So this really got me wondering. Why oh why is Faith seen as a virtue? The believing of something without evidence is what Faith is. The people wanting you to believe tell you what a wonderous and valuable thing Faith is. There is a bluring line between faith and trust.

Trust for me acknoweldges that there is a negative. Trust is a risk but without it we wouldn't have society. People co-operating for mutual benefit.

Faith requires you to ignore the negative. You must truly believe with all your heart. Push aside your doubts.
If you throw yourself off a cliff truly believing that you can fly does it make it so or will you go splat? Faith doesn't change the truth that you'll go splat.
Faith is ridiculous.

 

[Gromit]

^ I am deeply convinced that it's impossible for the human brain / human being to fully understand, much less KNOW, what is really going on in the universe...

Someone once told me that if the human brain was simple enough for us to be able to understand we would then be too simple to understand it. Catch 22.

To understand the whole universe we would need brains more complex than the whole universe which can't happen because we are part of the universe. Paradox.

 

[BandWagon]

What is really going on ?
You mean quantum mechanics and cosmology ?

Someone once told me that if the human brain was simple enough for us to be able to understand we would then be too simple to understand it. Catch 22.

To understand the whole universe we would need brains more complex than the whole universe which can't happen because we are part of the universe. Paradox.

We already know a very great deal, and with every passing year we know more. We are also good at inventing tools to help us, like computers and telescopes. It's quite conceivable that further evolution of our brains coupled with incredibly powerful quantum computers will enable us to understand the rest.

What the f*** we do after that would be a problem, though.....

 

[CNT36]

Someone once told me that if the human brain was simple enough for us to be able to understand we would then be too simple to understand it. Catch 22.

To understand the whole universe we would need brains more complex than the whole universe which can't happen because we are part of the universe. Paradox.

Bollocks.

 

[trabuquera]

yebbut understanding the physics/ mechanics of the universe is one thing. Finding a way to reduce human cruelty and suffering is another question. is there any ideology or organisation - religious or not - that could move us on in that respect?

 

[DotCommunist]

We already know a very great deal, and with every passing year we know more. We are also good at inventing tools to help us, like computers and telescopes. It's quite conceivable that further evolution of our brains coupled with incredibly powerful quantum computers will enable us to understand the rest.

What the f*** we do after that would be a problem, though.....

once you've achieved singularity you build vast dyson spheres, tap the power of your local stars thusly to build hyper dense bose-einstein condensates about the size of a skyscraper. You put them in orbit around convenient brown dwarf stars and run the human iterations in them virtually, only observable time for the user experience is slowed down drastically so a single actual day stretches for a year of observed experience. That way we can outlive the final heat death of the universe.

Its one of Corbyns policies so I hear

 

[BandWagon]

yebbut understanding the physics/ mechanics of the universe is one thing. Finding a way to reduce human cruelty and suffering is another question. is there any ideology or organisation - religious or not - that could move us on in that respect?

Civilisation, democracy and education would help.