Fathers for Justice

[Xanadu]

I'm not a father, and in all likelihood, won't be for a good few years, but I really do feel required to say that most of the fathers I've met in my 19 years of life have been really loving caring people.

My dad has helped me become the person I am today. I know that if ever I have a problem, I can call him. I can say the same of my mother. Both have been instrumental in turning me into the person I am. My mother has given me a love of cooking, my dad has given me a love of music. It was my mum that taught me how to touch type, while my dad taught me how to write computer programs. Neither of my parents are ashamed or heartbroken of any of their kids (two boys and a girl). My two brothers are extremely successful and truely nice people. They haven't been distorted and twisted by society. My sister is also extremely successful and happy with her life.

I've met quite a few dads in my life. MOST of them were really great. It was obvious to me and to their kids that they loved them, and took responsibility of them. In contrast to another statement made on this thread earlier, in my experience, most fathers are mature, loving, caring people.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I do believe you're exaggerating.

{To pour petrol on troubled waters... or not?}

It's seriously tempting to suggest that whenever men get so worked up about a woman generalising about men, what the woman said must strike some kind of chord. Otherwise it'd be water off a drake's back?

I don't believe I'm exaggerating.

Well, clearly I don't, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it.

But having been on the sharp end of that attitude, that fathers are intrinsically less capable of looking after children (not me, my own dad) and seeing no evidence whatsoever to back up anything that says fathers are poor carers, which is what's being claimed here, I can't help but think: this is just idiotic prejudice that I can in no way support.

I've seen good dads and bad dads. I've seen careless fathers and fathers who've been determined to be the best fathers they can, regardless of whether they're still involved with the partners with whom they've conceived said children.

Frankly, the bigoted opinions of certain posters as to male parents being worse than female parents are just that in this case. Bigoted. Prejudiced. Irrelevant. And I have no problem saying that. If they're unable to look past their own experiences, fuck them.

You may observe that I feel quite strongly about the matter. And the idea that fathers are worse than mothers has clearly been expressed here.

 

[General Ludd]

It's seriously tempting to suggest that whenever men get so worked up about a woman generalising about men, what the woman said must strike some kind of chord. Otherwise it'd be water off a drake's back?

That's bollocks. As arguments go that fits in the same kind of miserable category as 'if you've done nothing wrong you've got nothing to hide'. If I said black people weren't as intelligent as white people then I'm pretty sure that people wouldn't ignore it, even though there is absolutely no truth in it.

 

[freethepeeps]

I. I've been looking around for the proportion that lose contact and an estimate of those that do so because they can't be bothered. Not found those yet.

The group claims fathers going through divorce or separation proceedings are not treated equally in court and that as many as 40% lose contact with their children.

BBC

It is estimated that over one half of non-custodial divorced fathers in the USA gradually lose all contact with their children. (10) This figure has been repeated in British studies

SPIG

UK Statistics

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: UK Government Children First consultation paper (1998).


Divorced/separated mothers who "admit to thwarting" child-father contact 40%

Fathers who lose all child contact within 2 years of divorce/separation 40%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------Source: Department of Social Security (1999)


Percentage of 'parents with care' after divorce/separation who are women 93%

fnf

On the question of how many fathers "just can't be bothered" - I can't see many fathers admitting that, and I'm not sure its true in the majority of cases - I think unresolved issues with the mother, obstruction by the mother, or new partners are likely to be major factors.

But something struck me forcibly while reading what I did find: that this whole thing has blown up since the state started enforcing maintenance payments. Ah. It must indeed be galling to see money disappearing from the bank but not to see the kids. But there weren't all these campaign groups when the money wasn't disappearing...

Seems to me that you're quite similar to FH as regards the way that you view fathers.

Here's some other possible explanations for why fathers are keen to stay involved with the fruit of their loins.

Interest in shared residence has increased for a number of reasons. There has been a growing awareness of the effect of divorce on children. Prior to the early 1980's feedback on the effects of divorce on children tended to be dominated by adult or professional observation, by clinical reports and by statistical data. Wallerstein and Kelly's famous study published in 1980 was the first to attempt to understand the effects of divorce from the child's point of view (3). Their longitudinal study of 60 divorcing families in California showed that children of divorce often displayed an intense yearning for their non-resident fathers. In other research the authors recorded children's dissatisfaction with the traditional two weekends access per month, dictated by the sole residence model, and their desire for more frequent contact with their non-resident parents. These feelings of loss have also been reported in subsequent British studies (4). This evidence has led to a resurgence of interest in the position of the non-resident parent and a questioning in some quarters of the sole residence model.
Another factor has been the emergence in many countries of a father's movement. In the USA organisations like The Joint Custody Association and The Children's Rights Council have been influential in shaping attitudes on custody issues in a number of State legislatures. In the UK, the rise of several fathers' pressure groups, although lacking the coherence of much of the American movement, demonstrates the commitment that many divorced and separated fathers feel towards shared residence (5). This increase in political activity amongst divorced and separated fathers is matched by an increasing awareness of and interest in fatherhood generally. This interest has been both academic and popular (6). There has also been the first stirrings of a men's movement (7) and writers like Robert Bly have written on the nature of masculinity and fatherhood and in particular on the subject of boys relationships with their fathers (8).

SPIG op cit (Shared Parenting Information Group- uk)

 

[freethepeeps]

David Aaronovitch steps into the fray:

<snip>

The implication is inescapable: whatever you think of their tactics, the blokes who threw the purple bombs in Parliament on Wednesday had - according to family law judges at any rate - a real case.

That was not the view I held before I started working on this article. My default setting is one that reads, 'Women right, men wrong'.

<snip>

the long-term answer has to lie in convincing more people to behave better, in convincing them that it is shabby and damaging behaviour, no matter how bitter they feel, to exclude loving fathers from their childrens' lives.

The article is worth a read.

 

[Nemo]

Never studied statistics, Nemo?

Of course, I can only fairly generalise for the particular cultures and social strata in which I've lived, but from everything I hear and read the attitudes, expectations and behaviour of men in most other cultures are even worse ...

Not to any great degree, no, but even I know that the sort of sample you're talking about is insufficient to be able to generalise about the majority of fathers.

And yet I'm so grateful that I had girls, because I don't know how the mothers of boys cope. I really don't. It must be utterly heartbreaking.

Well I appologise for being born with testicles, but my mum has never given the impression of being 'heartbroken' with my brother and me and tbh I find the implication deeply offensive. I have a good relationship with my mother, both grandmothers, my father, and my one grandfather who is still alive, and, tbh I don't recognise your crude characterisations of growing up male and I speak from greater experience of it than you do. All I can say is it's a good thing I and other men here don't have self-esteem issues or your comment about us being 'heartbreaking' to our mothers could be very damaging. In this debate you're acting like the bigot's worst idea of a feminist and you're not really helping your cause, tbh.

 

[fat hamster]

you're not really helping your cause, tbh.

Well, thanks for the advice, oh betesticled one. I'll bear it in mind. (Dontcha just love it when men tell women how to do feminism.)

You're wrong about the stats - the number of fathers I've met / worked with / heard about over the past 23 years is plenty big enough for me to draw statistically valid conclusions about whole populations within several social classes of English culture.

And ROTFLMFAO at "it's a good thing I and other men here don't have self-esteem issues".

What a strange place Urban75 is.

 

[fat hamster]

So, FH, are women better than men?

Define "better".

Better at nurturing children IME, yes - though whether that's inate or down to centuries of crap social conditioning, I don't know.

 

[White Lotus]

Coming to this thread late, so much of what I want to say has already been said, probably better. And FH I'm so sad for you, that your experience has led you to generalise about men in a way you'd never accept about women, or any race or culture.

A few points arising from posts that stuck in my head:

1. My own experience is utterly, utterly different to FH's. After my twins I had (I now realise) PND, their father's decision to give up work and let me return was a life-saver for all of us. He has encountered plenty of prejudice, from everyone from my family ("sponger") to the health visitors who always talked to me even when they knew the situation and he was in the room, to the playgroup mums, who excluded him from their networks. He hasn't been perfect - but he's been a better full-time dad than I'd have been a full-time mum - and he's a star.

2. F4J may be high profile now because of the stunts, but similar organisations existed long before the CSA. One I know of, Families Need Fathers, has been going since 1974. Several years ago I attended a conference on this subject and what I said there is still on their website: "I want to say to women that this isn't only an issue for men and fathers. We will never achieve true equality outside the home until men have equality within it"

3. I do wish more mothers could see things from their children's point of view. To them, the father of their child may have been one of a few, or many relationships - and when it's over, it's best for them to move on. But a child only gets one biological father, and not knowing him creates a vacuum in their life that they may not even be conscious of, but has an effect on them. If it's at all possible to avoid that, both parents should work to do so.

 

[fat hamster]

Seems to me that you're quite similar to FH as regards the way that you view fathers.

Well, I guess that told you, laptop.

 

[freethepeeps]

Well, thanks for the advice, oh betesticled one. I'll bear it in mind. (Dontcha just love it when men tell women how to do feminism.)

You're wrong about the stats - the number of fathers I've met / worked with / heard about over the past 23 years is plenty big enough for me to draw statistically valid conclusions about whole populations within several social classes of English culture.

And ROTFLMFAO at "it's a good thing I and other men here don't have self-esteem issues".

What a strange place Urban75 is.

Is anyone telling you how to "do feminism"?

You've made some pretty offensive generalisations about fathers, which come across as bigoted and exaggerated, and quite rightly, you have been called on it.

If feminism equals denying kids a relationship with their fathers, then something has gone very wrong.

Men are beginning to see that they can be involved in the care of their children, and that should be something that feminists welcome.

 

[Nemo]

Well, thanks for the advice, oh betesticled one. I'll bear it in mind. (Dontcha just love it when men tell women how to do feminism.)

I wasn't aware I was excluded from commenting on things, especially when they are about me, my peers, and my family.

You're wrong about the stats - the number of fathers I've met / worked with / heard about over the past 23 years is plenty big enough for me to draw statistically valid conclusions about whole populations within several social classes of English culture.

Of course they are, this, of course, allows you to use the unqualified 'generally' when countless counter-examples can be thrown at you.

And ROTFLMFAO at "it's a good thing I and other men here don't have self-esteem issues".

What? You think being told we're a heatbreak to our mothers mightn't upset us? Tell me, how much do you know about the male psyche? You expect to be able to imply that we're all useless and our mothers all hate us and not get a reaction?

What a strange place Urban75 is.

What? Because people resent you insulting them and their families? Yes, very odd that.

<Edited to add> Anyway, I'm not telling you how to 'do' feminism, I'm telling you how not to characterise society.

 

[ChrisFilter]

you haven't answered any of my questions FH.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

You're wrong about the stats - the number of fathers I've met / worked with / heard about over the past 23 years is plenty big enough for me to draw statistically valid conclusions about whole populations within several social classes of English culture.

No, you're wrong about the 'stats.' Regardless of how many fathers you've met or whatever, that only has any statistical relevance if they form a representative sample, which isn't the case is it? How have you met these people? Or heard about them, which is even more tenuous?

 

[fat hamster]

FH I'm so sad for you, that your experience has led you to generalise about men in a way you'd never accept about women, or any race or culture.

But WL, I most certainly would generalise in the same sort of way about women and about the cultures I'm familiar with.

(Not so sure about race because as a white person I know so little about how race is defined. But then, wouldn't it be tempting to generalise and say that's the case for most white people? )

their father ... has encountered plenty of prejudice, from everyone from my family ("sponger") to the health visitors who always talked to me even when they knew the situation and he was in the room, to the playgroup mums, who excluded him from their networks.

QED in relation to the abuse our society puts onto men.

And also, he was unusual - he wan't "most fathers", i.e. the vast majority whom Deb Orr and I were talking about.

"I want to say to women that this isn't only an issue for men and fathers. We will never achieve true equality outside the home until men have equality within it"

I totally agree with that. But pretending everything's already equal also isn't going to get us there.

 

[fat hamster]

you haven't answered any of my questions FH.

That's because I find them boring and silly.

 

[fat hamster]

No, you're wrong about the 'stats.' Regardless of how many fathers you've met or whatever, that only has any statistical relevance if they form a representative sample, which isn't the case is it? How have you met these people? Or heard about them, which is even more tenuous?

Read my earlier posts.

Why or how would the people I've met not contitute representative samples from the cultures and social classes in which I've moved over the past half-century?

 

[farmerbarleymow]

And also, he was unusual - he wan't "most fathers", i.e. the vast majority whom Deb Orr and I were talking about.

Please define 'vast majority' FH?

 

[fanta]

Dontcha just love it when men tell women how to do feminism

Dontcha just love it when the arguments of bitter men-hating women get more and more desperate the more silly and absurd their arguments become?

 

[General Ludd]

Never studied statistics, Nemo?

You're wrong about the stats - the number of fathers I've met / worked with / heard about over the past 23 years is plenty big enough for me to draw statistically valid conclusions about whole populations within several social classes of English culture.

Nemo might not have but I have, and to a much higher level than you ever will. Assuming a completely unbiased sample and a yes/no question then you'd need 400 cases to be able to have a 95% of being in the correct 6% bracket. With much study and careful samples you can get away with 1000 samples. With something as complex as parenting and an unbiased sample with no past results to allow you to refine your solution then you're going to need many thousands. Your stats is crap.

 

[laptop]

Well, I guess that told you, laptop.

Damn, I seem to have mislaid my seppuku sword... guess I'll have to live with the shame.

 

[fat hamster]

Please define 'vast majority' FH?

Umm ... most of them.

It would be absurd to try and give a percentage. I'm perfectly aware that my statistical sampling isn't that robust. But most of the fathers I've ever met have been selfish, immature and egotistical.

 

[fat hamster]

Dontcha just love it when the arguments of bitter men-hating women get more and more desperate the more silly and absurd their arguments become?

<yawns, wanders off to do the housework>

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Umm ... most of them.

It would be absurd to try and give a percentage. I'm perfectly aware that my statistical sampling isn't that robust. But most of the fathers I've ever met have been selfish, immature and egotistical.

and there is the rub.....

Most of the fathers you've met. Not most of the fathers in society. There is one hell of a difference between the two.

 

[fanta]

Big it up for Fat Hamster - the Millie Tant of Urban75 leading the fight against the evil penis-weilding fascists on behalf of her sistahs!

 

[fat hamster]

With something as complex as parenting and an unbiased sample with no past results to allow you to refine your solution then you're going to need many thousands. Your stats is crap.

30+ years as a highly socially mobile community activist? I've met many, many thousands of fathers.

And I've taught stats at Uni too, mate, so watch it!

 

[Random]

Nemo might not have but I have, and to a much higher level than you ever will. Assuming a completely unbiased sample

You're such a positivist bitch, MoM!
"Unbiased sample" my arse...

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

People tend to gravitate towards similar people, they know people who move in similar circles. When you're talking about having 'heard about' these fathers, that must mean from people you've got at least some reasonable level of acquaintance with. You've qualified your original generalisation by saying that you can talk about several, rather than all, social classes, without at any point defining how you'd definie theses 'classes'.

TBH, I can't be asked to argue the point, plenty of others have already pointed out what rubbish you're talking, but if you're going to patronise Nemo with 'never studied statistics' you might want to try and back that up with some statistical relevence. Maybe you'd like to define your population, sampling method, and actually give some sort of statistical figure on how many fathers are immature or useless or whatever phrases you used, rather tha just saying 'most.'

 

[fat hamster]

Big it up for Fat Hamster - the Millie Tant of Urban75 leading the fight against the evil penis-weilding fascists on behalf of her sistahs!

<shakes fanta so hard his top blows off and all his bubbles and sticky sweet stuff splatter across the thread>

<thinks "fuck housework" and goes for a spliff>

 

[fat hamster]

TBH, I can't be asked to argue the point

Wot he said.