fat hamster said:
Ah yes, a spot of cultural supremacy.
Fathers for Justice
- Thread starter nosos
- Start date
Ah yes, a spot of cultural supremacy.
farmerbarleymow
I'm Petee's spirit animal
fat hamster said:
Here you go again - more sexist shite.
Is that the classic "blame it all on the mothers" tactic? I expected better of you, ftp.freethepeeps said:Hmmm........
And who socialises these girls and boys?
IMO children are socialised largely by school, television, and advertising. Let me tell you it's a fucking hard job bringing up girls in the face of constant media pressure on both them and me to prettify, starve and sanitise ourselves for our men.
And yet I'm so grateful that I had girls, because I don't know how the mothers of boys cope. I really don't. It must be utterly heartbreaking.
I should have thought it was obvious that I was making deliberate reference to Nosos' first post.farmerbarleymow said:
farmerbarleymow
I'm Petee's spirit animal
fat hamster said:And yet I'm so grateful that I had girls, because I don't know how the mothers of boys cope. I really don't. It must be utterly heartbreaking.
Heartbreaking in what sense? I always thought that girls were worse than boys, certainly in their teenage years where they can be 'difficult' - my sister was a bitch troll from hell when she was a teenager
pennimania
still dre and drooling
Have just waded through this thread
and want to make a useful contribution but don't know if I can
I usually agree with fh but on this occasion I really cannot support her generalisation - and I call myself a feminist AND I was a single parent for 11 years before I met mr m. But my oldest son always saw his dad because he needed him and whether I still got on with him or not was immaterial.
ime kids always want to know who their father was even if he happens to be a prize cunt (my best mate has an ex like this but her daughter still wants to see him). Children who don't know who their parents are are often dislocated and unhappy, talk to anyone who has adopted and see if I'm wrong.
My youinger children are lucky in that they have a sweet mellow man for their dad, even if he is a bit impractical, but I know lots of men like this (including a lovely guy who has taken on a friend's daughter as his own).
Not every bloke is a reprobate straight off the Trisha show - some are actually rather nice.
and want to make a useful contribution but don't know if I can
I usually agree with fh but on this occasion I really cannot support her generalisation - and I call myself a feminist AND I was a single parent for 11 years before I met mr m. But my oldest son always saw his dad because he needed him and whether I still got on with him or not was immaterial.
ime kids always want to know who their father was even if he happens to be a prize cunt (my best mate has an ex like this but her daughter still wants to see him). Children who don't know who their parents are are often dislocated and unhappy, talk to anyone who has adopted and see if I'm wrong.
My youinger children are lucky in that they have a sweet mellow man for their dad, even if he is a bit impractical, but I know lots of men like this (including a lovely guy who has taken on a friend's daughter as his own).
Not every bloke is a reprobate straight off the Trisha show - some are actually rather nice.
farmerbarleymow
I'm Petee's spirit animal
fat hamster said:I should have thought it was obvious that I was making deliberate reference to Nosos' first post.
You posted it as a bald statement with no clarification or qualification whatsoever - it came across as an offensive post, and I am not the only one who read it in that way.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Well, Hamster may have given up on almost half of the human race, but i think that there's a lot of progress that can be made -- and without 'forcing' men to behave differently. patriarchy affects men and women, and I think that the F4J campaigns are a part of men starting to recognise this. And if they're not, then we should use the fact that they're around to start a debate.
freethepeeps said:
Oh shut up and go to bed, you silly boys!farmerbarleymow said:Here you go again - more sexist shite.
farmerbarleymow
I'm Petee's spirit animal
fat hamster said:Oh shut up and go to bed, you silly boys!
Get back in that bloody kitchen, silly woman
By loving them and doing their best for them. Fucking hell, you have some twisted ideas.fat hamster said:And yet I'm so grateful that I had girls, because I don't know how the mothers of boys cope. I really don't. It must be utterly heartbreaking.
pennimania
still dre and drooling
I don't know what that means about the mothers of boys not coping
I've got 2 boys and a girl. I love them the same. I worry about them the same. They are all different people with different problems - Itry to deal with each one as it happens - I'm not a very good mother - I just try to manage .
That's all you can do really.
I've got 2 boys and a girl. I love them the same. I worry about them the same. They are all different people with different problems - Itry to deal with each one as it happens - I'm not a very good mother - I just try to manage .
That's all you can do really.
ChrisFilter
Like a boss.
fat hamster said:And yet I'm so grateful that I had girls, because I don't know how the mothers of boys cope. I really don't. It must be utterly heartbreaking.
what the fuck are you on about? I'm sorry FH, I've never had any quibble with what you've said in the past, but right now you're being incredibly offensive, and somehow, almost snobby.
my dad has done a fucking good job raising me, alongside my mum.. in fact, he still always calls me just to chat, more so than my mum does (not that it's an issue, he's just more like that than my mum).. so on behalf of my Dad, fuck off.. he's none of the things you're accusing the majority of men of being, and he isn't corrupting my view of the opposite sex either.
with regard to my mum, a feminist, a woman in a mans world of glass ceilings and the like in her career, is she heartbroken from having raised boys? I wouldn't have thought so, myself and my brother are doing pretty well thank you very much.. I'm sure she'd be just as incensed by your bigotry as I am, and wouldn't like to be catagorised by you as being heartbroken.
If I'd really given up on men I wouldn't bother to post here. I've met some lovely men through Urban, some of whom I now count among my real-life friends.Random said:
I'm not at all impressed with the F4J people I've met and read about so far, but I wholeheartedly agree that debate on the subject is to be welcomed.
ChrisFilter
Like a boss.
fat hamster said:
good.......
pennimania said:
fat hamster said:
I'm going with pennimania on this one.
There are other major socialising influences, but parents play a key role - as is amply illustrated by the "dislocation" of adoptees.
Kids want to know their dads, and often what gets in the way of that is the fallout from the failed relationship between the parents.
There are many bitter mums, dads and kids about.
Watchng them become hardened and damaged by the appalling abuse our society deals out to boy children. Watching them learn to hide their tears and stifle their feelings, and gradually adopt sexist, abusive attitudes themselves. Seeing their emerging sexuality exploited and manipulated by pornographers, and their respect for their mothers and sisters trashed.pennimania said:
And seeing them grow up in a society that no longer seems to have any place for young men ...
What I meant was that I would find watching these processes really hard to cope with emotionally, and I don't know how mothers of boys manage it.
Like I said earlier, I worked hard to ensure that both dads stayed in touch with my daughters. Some years it took a lot of pro-active contacting and arranging by yours truly.freethepeeps said:
And it felt like a real physical effort sometimes to put aside my own (frequently very negative) feelings about their dads so that my daughters could have relatively untainted relationships with them.
ChrisFilter
Like a boss.
fat hamster said:Watchng them become hardened and damaged by the appalling abuse our society deals out to boy children. Watching them learn to hide their tears and stifle their feelings, and gradually adopt sexist, abusive attitudes themselves. Seeing their emerging sexuality exploited and manipulated by pornographers, and their respect for their mothers and sisters trashed.
And seeing them grow up in a society that no longer seems to have any place for young men ...
I think your views have blinded you to the way the world really is, and I suspect it's too late to change them.
I'm fine, don't abuse myself any more than my female friends, quite enjoy being manipulated by pornography, and there's plenty of space in the world for me.. apart from on busy tubes maybe..
pennimania
still dre and drooling
fat hamster said:Watchng them become hardened and damaged by the appalling abuse our society deals out to boy children. Watching them learn to hide their tears and stifle their feelings, and gradually adopt sexist, abusive attitudes themselves. Seeing their emerging sexuality exploited and manipulated by pornographers, and their respect for their mothers and sisters trashed.
And seeing them grow up in a society that no longer seems to have any place for young men ...
Oh come on!
you know that really is nonsense! my own boys can and do cry when they need to and I refuse to believe that they do not not have respect for me an dtheir sister - the oldest is nearly 23 btw.
A lot of this is to do with the way children are brought up inside the home - I have tried to show my kids they can talk about anything - unlike my mother's ' let's not think about that' attitude.
Infact what makes you think girls have such wonderful experiences of mothers - my mother was a domnineering cold hearted control freak. I have spent my adult life trying to claw back my self esteem and I only visit her from duty. and because the grandchildren want to see her - remember what I said about dislocation?
No place for young men? apart from my son what about the many lovely young men here on urban 75? you have met some of them fh - I call them a credit to all of us.
fat hamster said:
I was talking more generally. A lot of kids and fathers do lose touch, and the adversarial legal systems tends to interact badly with the acrimony of the fallout. Some fathers are not good fathers because they are not allowed to be good fathers. It can be a very painful experience.
F4J have been succesful in stimulating a debate on the matter, as well as (inadvertantly) drawing attention to some of the difficulties.
It does seem to me that as a society we need a new way of dealing with the issue.
ChrisFilter
Like a boss.
out of interest FH, what will you do if and when (if it hasn't already happened) one of your daughters decides to settle down and have kids? Will you put her off the idea? Will you try and come between her and her partner? Will you be disappointed if the child is male?
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
So, FH, are women better than men?
silentNate
1.618 xakep
Bless. It's alright ma I'll put on the extra duvet...fat hamster said:Watchng them become hardened and damaged by the appalling abuse our society deals out to boy children. Watching them learn to hide their tears and stifle their feelings, and gradually adopt sexist, abusive attitudes themselves. Seeing their emerging sexuality exploited and manipulated by pornographers, and their respect for their mothers and sisters trashed.
And seeing them grow up in a society that no longer seems to have any place for young men ...
What I meant was that I would find watching these processes really hard to cope with emotionally, and I don't know how mothers of boys manage it.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I'm sorry, but I have to comment at this stage.
Parents of both genders can be fucked up by society, inappropriately specialised and prey to all sorts of illusions about their role in society, which they may pass down to their children.
This is not gender-specific. I know from personal experience many fathers and mothers who are both equally good at raising children. Couples who each give 100%, fathers who give 100% despite not having custody, fathers who give 100% when they do have custody.
The suggestion that I see here that fathers are intrinsically incapable of providing for children I find incredibly offensive. It's not backed up by anything apart from personal prejudice; no other evidence or indication has been provided, and I can provide numerous counterexamples of fathers who have been central to their childrens' development.
Frankly, this is resting on the level of hate speech. And I do not believe I'm exaggerating when I say that.
Parents of both genders can be fucked up by society, inappropriately specialised and prey to all sorts of illusions about their role in society, which they may pass down to their children.
This is not gender-specific. I know from personal experience many fathers and mothers who are both equally good at raising children. Couples who each give 100%, fathers who give 100% despite not having custody, fathers who give 100% when they do have custody.
The suggestion that I see here that fathers are intrinsically incapable of providing for children I find incredibly offensive. It's not backed up by anything apart from personal prejudice; no other evidence or indication has been provided, and I can provide numerous counterexamples of fathers who have been central to their childrens' development.
Frankly, this is resting on the level of hate speech. And I do not believe I'm exaggerating when I say that.
FridgeMagnet said:
I do believe you're exaggerating.
{To pour petrol on troubled waters... or not?}
It's seriously tempting to suggest that whenever men get so worked up about a woman generalising about men, what the woman said must strike some kind of chord. Otherwise it'd be water off a drake's back?
Thread started off about divorced/separated fathers. I've been looking around for the proportion that lose contact and an estimate of those that do so because they can't be bothered. Not found those yet.
But something struck me forcibly while reading what I did find: that this whole thing has blown up since the state started enforcing maintenance payments. Ah. It must indeed be galling to see money disappearing from the bank but not to see the kids. But there weren't all these campaign groups when the money wasn't disappearing...
Hmmm.
I don't have children but I'm not happy with generalisations about the capacity of men to be fathers or the potential of boys to grow healthily.
This isn't self interest. It just worries me in the same way that I would be about generalisations of any other kind.
This isn't self interest. It just worries me in the same way that I would be about generalisations of any other kind.
What?laptop said:
I agree, but you can kind of see this kind of debating coming when you have a group called "Fathers For Justice" getting angry and militant, and when there is also still such a high level of domestic abuse, mostly (but not all) aimed at women.FridgeMagnet said:
This kind of reminds me of the story of Solomon and the two women who came to him to settle a dispute about who a certain baby really belonged to. The story goes that he listened to both of them in turn tell him that the baby was theirs, and they both seemed equally believable. So he ordered that a guard to bring him a sword and told them he was going to cut the baby in two and give them half each, upon which one of the women rushed forward and pleaded that he give the baby to the other woman instead, thereby showing her to be the real mother.
I think there is a moral in there somewhere.
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