Fathers for Justice

[fat hamster]

What if my experience was the other way round?

Then I'd be extremely surprised.

 

[nosos]

Then I'd be extremely surprised.

Really?

<feels bad for being male>

 

[fanta]

Bollocks.

In the experience of most of the women I know, having the father around causing problems and making demands is far more unhelpful.

Most of the women you know in your experience do not represent most women.

Having any parent hanging around just to cause problems is unhelpful.

Your idiotic generalising suggests that you are harbouring some sort of antipathy towards fathers.

Given that, your contributions to this debate are not really going to be that helpful are they?

Other posters will in fact assume that you're just talking, er, bollocks.

 

[silentNate]

My sisters are well cared for by my fatherwho is a househusband...
Fat Hamster reckons that...

...Fathers are generally selfish, immature and egotistical.
In my long experience, most women are more mature, grounded and just plain better better at the long, slow, demanding job of bringing up children than are most men.

In your opinion, Fat Hamster, should they be taken off him til their mother is willing to give up work?

 

[farmerbarleymow]

In the experience of most children I know (myself included) excluding the father is very unhelpful. And "fathers are generally selfish, immature and egotistical." is offensive sexist bollocks.

Agreed. It is better if both parents are around, if at all possible. A child needs role models from both genders, although these roles can be provided by people not biologically related to the child.

Your comment about fathers FH is offensive sexist bollocks - meanoldmand is absolutely right.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Agree - and it would happen in an ideal world - but we don't have one.

Not if we keep doing things the same old way.

I know it's easy for me to sit here and tell them how they should do it, I'm not in their situation and I'm not feeling the desperation they are, all I'm saying is that from my POV they've come out with a bad image for the type of stunts they've pulled. Obviosuly it's just a personal impression, if they'd done something else they possibly would have come off looking better, but they didn't so they didn't.

Anyway, I doubt they are particularly concerned with what I think of them

 

[Cloo]

But, Hamster, if your view represents 'most women' I can see why father have a grievance about being portrayed in this way by women all the time!

Maybe they are a bit immature. Maybe they can be unreliable. But these are not reasons for, in some cases, blocking or making excessively restricted their access to children they love.

 

[pogofish]

I understand and agree with their cause, but personally so far their stunts have come off as childish rather than intelligent, and haven't really helped their credibility

Again, I have limited support for them. It depends on each individual case IMO, you can't generalise. There are good fathers & good mothers, likewise bad ones. If there can't be a family solution, the most suitable parent ought to be chosen without any sex-based presumptions.

Where their protests are concerned, I can see why they can't choose more suitably targeted methods. They could easily jeapordise any further acess to their children or any ongoing legal matters/existing agreements.

One snippet I read a while back was that one of their main complaints was against the Child Support Agency & how it conducts itself financially, apparently (& I don't have independant confirmation) they claim that it fully meets its targets from only 20% of the fathers it pursues - To me that sounds like a significant number of fathers are being taken to the cleaners whilst little is done to follow-up the ones more skilled at avoiding responsability. For that reason alone, they merit some support IMO.

B

 

[rorymac]

But Lord Camomile...you have to be a bit pathetic to attract the attention of the media .. it's the way the poxy thing works. You go around presenting rational/intelligent arguments ..fuckall!!
Climb up a dolly crane ... the wankers descend on the building site like fuckin flies.
Aside from that thousands of men are very much sinned against by the law and mothers who take the piss because the fuckers can. That's a fuckin fact is that. It's horrendously sad in so many cases IMO.

 

[the B]

That's the most sensible rorymac post I've ever read and I've seen hundreds by now...are we sure it's the same person posting that as usual

And even more strangely...I find myself agreeing with rorymac too

 

[white rabbit]

Whatever the merits of their case, if we make to concessions to Fathers For Justice now, it'd just be giving in to purple flour-filled condom throwing.

And that would never do. It's appeasement, isn't it? Merely encourage them.

 

[rorymac]

I throw one in every now and then like. x
New fuckin page...bollix.
Socks.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

I reserve judgement on the Fathers for justice mob Im afraid. There are other fathers groups who dont resort to these tactics and before we hand them sympathy and support we need to realise that these are fathers protesting who have been refused contact in many cases by a court which generally needs evidence of a pretty good standard to refuse contact.

Ive been on the opposite side of this argument as a mother who had good grounds for opposing contact but even with police evidence, statements, previous injunctions which has power of arrest attached after both me and the kids suffered domestic abuse and yet even with all this evidence they courts awarded contact, not just once but at several hearings where he appeared regularly trying to force the issues, harrassing me using legally aided lawyers every few months to get more and more contact ( even though CAFCASS had said they didnt believe more contact was in the childrens best interests)

My experience showed me that even with evidence from statutory bodies my ex was still awarded contact, despite using contact handovers to physically assault me.
Im now very sceptical about these claims that courts favour the mother, the experience of friends of mine and other mothers who had been in refuges with me has been very similar. When I see these men I wonder whether they hide behind the confidentiality aspects of the family court to claim they are victims and hard done by when the court may have seen overwhelming evidence of abuse by these people and decided that they should place the childs interests first and that meant no direct contact with dad ( which was what my ex was eventually awarded after beating me and trying to run me over when collecting the children- witnessed by neighbours of mine and the children who were in the car)

Things arent always as clear cut as they seem and we have no way of checking whatever claims of injustice these men claim becuase of the court imposed confidentiality ( whihc is quite correct, they should be private)

 

[Lord Camomile]

But Lord Camomile...you have to be a bit pathetic to attract the attention of the media .. it's the way the poxy thing works. You go around presenting rational/intelligent arguments ..fuckall!!
Climb up a dolly crane ... the wankers descend on the building site like fuckin flies.

Oh sure, I totally understand that and agree that sometimes you have to do things a little....differently to get yourself heard, I just think the way they did it wasn't particularly sensible. They've come off as childish (IMHO) and so done the credibility of their argument no good at all, and also through the 'Purple Powder' incident have caused more wide-reaching problems, particularly in giving Blunkett more ammo which is always a bad thing IMO

 

[General Ludd]

Again, I have limited support for them. It depends on each individual case IMO, you can't generalise. There are good fathers & good mothers, likewise bad ones. If there can't be a family solution, the most suitable parent ought to be chosen without any sex-based presumptions.

Isn't that exactly what Fathers4Justice (horrible name) want?

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

I think thats debateable. Much of their protest seems to revolve around their own sense of injustice and attention for their individual cases. How do we judge whether they have already had justice and simply dont like the consequences of the decisions and actions that theyve played their part in in the past?

 

[Epona]

Bollocks.

In the experience of most of the women I know, having the father around causing problems and making demands is far more unhelpful.

Do you really believe this, or just playing devil's advocate?

I can't believe that anyone would come out with this sort of crap - it's the sort of bollocks that gives the fight for womens' equality a bad name. Plenty of dads do a great job, limiting your view to a seemingly very narrow experience and then tarring everyone with the same brush is idiotic

 

[lyra_k]

Do you really believe this, or just playing devil's advocate?

I can't believe that anyone would come out with this sort of crap - it's the sort of bollocks that gives the fight for womens' equality a bad name. Plenty of dads do a great job, limiting your view to a seemingly very narrow experience and then tarring everyone with the same brush is idiotic

i hate to answer for someone else, but i've had this conversation with fh before, and she means every word of it. i'm all for people having different opinions to mine, and i don't care a jot if someone disagrees with me, but in this case i have to agree that it's just plain offensive (not to mention absolute, unmitigated crap). offensive to single fathers (of which i know a few), offensive to good fathers, offensive to mediocre fathers, offensive to potential fathers, and offensive to women who choose to have a family with a man around.

In the experience of most of the women I know, having the father around causing problems and making demands is far more unhelpful

unhelpful to who, though? unhelpful to the children, or unhelpful to the mother, whose plans to use the father for his sperm and then have nothing more to do with him because she wants a child without the inconvenience of having a man around in any capacity are rather annoyingly derailed when said chump actually *gasp* turns out to love his children and want some contact with them?

yes, i can see how that would be annoying and unhelpful to the woman, sod the children, eh?

 

[Hollis]

Totally support them.. it'd be a dead issue otherwise.

Weird article - includes an example of a bloke with psychiatrict problems who caused problems for his kids.. Whats that gotta do with anything?

 

[Stobart Stopper]

One of the best parents I know is a lone father. His wife didn't leave him, she died from cancer.....about a year after giving birth to a little boy who has severe disabilities, cerebral palsy, hearing problems etc. This bloke has really had it tough, not only is he a single dad but he has a child with lots of problems, he's a brilliant dad to his kid. He always puts him first, and he runs the London Marathon every year for different charities.

I have incredible respect for this man, he never complains, he just gets on with what life chucks at him.

My dad died when I was young and I'd have given anything for him to have been around for longer. I know many single mums who do a great job bringing up their kids after their husbands/partners have died/fucked off with other women of just left for no apparent reason. They get my respect too.

Mothers AND fathers are equally important for a kid's upbringing IMO and I'd find it incredibly difficult if my husband wasn't around becasue he plays an important role in our son's life...... but life isn't always that simple, many have to muddle along on their own.

There's no easy answer but I do think that society demonises fathers sometimes. Women can be right bastards when they feel they have been wronged in some way and this very often leads to even more suufering for the innocent kids.

 

[kained&able]

both parents is the better option as long as both parents are fit to rasie a child.
if one isn't then they should be a parent.

i don't like the fact that mothers seem to have a lot more rights then men in this field.

i however am really sad that certain femlaes on this thread are basicly saying im going to be a bad parent purely beacuse i'm male.

tis bollocks of the highest order.

dave

 

[Stobart Stopper]

i however am really sad that certain femlaes on this thread are basicly saying im going to be a bad parent purely beacuse i'm male.

Well I certainly don't think that. Believe me, some of the FEMALE parents I have seen in 8 years at my kid's school leave alot to be desired. Bitches of the highest order IMO, both to the fathers and their kids. I have seen some men reduced to being forced out of their homes by these fucking cows who should, in my opinion, never have got married, let alone have had any kids.

You would not believe some of the things I have seen. And it's invariably the MEN who are treated like pieces of shite by everyone, including social services even though they have been the innocent parties.

 

[fat hamster]

unhelpful to who, though? unhelpful to the children, or unhelpful to the mother, whose plans to use the father for his sperm and then have nothing more to do with him because she wants a child without the inconvenience of having a man around in any capacity are rather annoyingly derailed when said chump actually *gasp* turns out to love his children and want some contact with them?

yes, i can see how that would be annoying and unhelpful to the woman, sod the children, eh?

If that's where you think I'm coming from with this, you're a lot stupider than I thought, l_k.

On the contrary, with both fathers I was the one who made the effort to ensure that they stayed in touch with their daughters over the years. Maybe men should be a bit more careful where they put their sperm, innit?

I didn't set out to get pregnant with either of my children, though in both cases - once I had got over the shock - I was delighted.

 

[Random]

If F4J manage to get attitudes changed so that men are expected to do at least half of the childcare then that will be a massive step forward to a non-sexist society. If a man is willing to do half of the care, why shouldn't they get (at least) half of the custody?

Most court decisions are made by old male judges and magistrates with very old-fashioned views.

 

[fat hamster]

i however am really sad that certain females on this thread are basicly saying im going to be a bad parent purely because i'm male.

Who said that?

You're young, you're politically aware - you have the chance to do things differently.

But things ain't going to improve if we keep our collective heads in the sand. Re-read LilMissHissyFit's first post. Where are the shelters for battered men? Show me the fathers who live with their children and their children's mothers and truly take 50%+ of responsibility for their offspring and for their own emotional and physical wellbeing. They may be out there, but I haven't met them yet.

 

[Random]

things ain't going to improve if we keep our collective heads in the sand.

I agree. But assuming that women will be able to do all the work won't move us on. If F4J are claiming a right to %50 of access this should also be taken as ma move towards men taking %50 *responsibility*, which is a good feminist aim.

I do worry that F4J are part of the anti-feminist backlash, but so far none of them I've met have been anti-women, just against the idea that a dispute between the partners should automatically turn into a struggle over access.

 

[silentNate]

My sisters are well cared for by my fatherwho is a househusband...
Fat Hamster reckons that...

...Fathers are generally selfish, immature and egotistical.
In my long experience, most women are more mature, grounded and just plain better better at the long, slow, demanding job of bringing up children than are most men.

In your opinion, Fat Hamster, should they be taken off him til their mother is willing to give up work?

 

[laptop]

One Sandra Laville has done the obvious thing and gone to talk to their exes. A mixed bag and obviously the lawyers have been over the piece with a fine-toothed comb... http://society.guardian.co.uk/children/story/0,1074,1222323,00.html

For example:

The case of Conrad Campbell is an example of the allegations and counter allegations, bitterness and anger which engulf relationship breakdowns and defy easy solutions. Mr Campbell joined Fathers 4 Justice out of desperation after losing contact with his child. "I went to prison for 84 days last summer just for texting my son because it was his birthday that week," he said. "She [the child's mother] said I was in breach of an injunction because I was trying to keep up contact with my son; that it was harassment and she was in fear of her life and I was sent to jail." He does, however, admit assaulting his partner and being sent on a programme to tackle his anger.

Messy, complicated...

I know of one father who's suing for access and responsibility now, having been so slack at picking the child up from daycare that the kid was about to lose the place. The mother's been advised he'll probably get access - unless he's actually jailed for assault first.

I know of one who vanished in stages - got slacker and slacker about arrangements and stopped seeing his kid at all when his new wife had hers. That, I think, is a far commoner problem.

 

[fat hamster]

And to those who have suggested my experience is "narrow": I've been a single mum for over 23 years now. I've always been active in the community (and on the left, too, where you would expect that people to be generally more self-aware and anti-sexist), and so I've met and worked with a lot of single mums as well as some couples and a smattering of single dads.

The "chip on my shoulder" is less to do with disappointment at the inadequacies of my own girls' two fathers than with having witnessed endless struggle and heartbreak on the part of so many women who started out thinking their man was "special" and that things would be different for them.

 

[fat hamster]

In your opinion, Fat Hamster, should they be taken off him til their mother is willing to give up work?

In my opinion you are an immature, egotistical and repetitive twat, 'silentNate', and no of course I don't think that.

I said most fathers ...