Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Nobody is saying that all men are violent and abusive, I hope. What is being said is that the father's rights movement agenda is sinister and reactionary.
Fathers for Justice
- Thread starter nosos
- Start date
Hollis
bloody furious
LilMissHissyFit said:
Yeah.. but there's the total non-legal situation, where the father doesn't see his kid for years because the women doesn't want them to, and he complies.
I've a mate whose really cut up because he's missed his kid growing up. Not because of a court. But because the woman decided that is for the best.
He's a decent bloke aswell.
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
Sorry that argument doesnt wash with me. If he has the court system but chooses not to use the legal support that is open to him then I dont believe he should be able to complain about not seeing his child. If hes chosen to let her have her own way then thats his choice. however sad or wrong that choice may be he still made that choice. he has the weight of the law behind him.
Its a non argument to say its a non legal situation if hes not even tried to get legal access to his child then why complain about it? If the legal avenue wasnt open to him then fair enough he'd have an argument but if it is and he chooses not to pursue it then thats very sad but still a non argument. What would direct action achieve or adding his voice to any protest when its been his choice to let her have her away and effectively walk away from his child.
Its a non argument to say its a non legal situation if hes not even tried to get legal access to his child then why complain about it? If the legal avenue wasnt open to him then fair enough he'd have an argument but if it is and he chooses not to pursue it then thats very sad but still a non argument. What would direct action achieve or adding his voice to any protest when its been his choice to let her have her away and effectively walk away from his child.
Nigel Irritable is clearly right. (This movement is a bunch of self-righteous tossers). But so is Meanoldman. (A child needs both parents). And Littklemisshissyfit knows what she is taking about (some parents are plain dangerous).
I go back to the fact that the CHILDREN matter.
Maybe we ought to strengthen the Probationary Service and their conciliation programme?
I go back to the fact that the CHILDREN matter.
Maybe we ought to strengthen the Probationary Service and their conciliation programme?
pennimania
still dre and drooling
Yes.
I have just gone back to the beginning of the thread to read the first few pages again. I was a bit pissed when I steamed in last night.
Really the thread has been derailed but I don't blame people for joining in because some rather daft generalizations were being thrown around. It is interesting that at the beginning of the thread it was mainly young men (without kids I think) trying to discuss this. I'm glad they are thinking about it.
I suppose what is needed is some new really thoughtful legislation, and a really decent setup for sorting out custody/access. I don't like F4J much as I said - they do smack of self pity and guilt trippery .
Actually at one point my son shared his time equally between his dad and me, in his teens, It was his choice and I let him try it. Eventually he came back to live with me. This was mainly because he didn;t like his dad's new partner and also because he wanted to see more of his half sister and brother, He tolerated my husband.
Sorry I know that is anecdotal. But maybe children should be given the choice (where it is viable of course).
I have just gone back to the beginning of the thread to read the first few pages again. I was a bit pissed when I steamed in last night.
Really the thread has been derailed but I don't blame people for joining in because some rather daft generalizations were being thrown around. It is interesting that at the beginning of the thread it was mainly young men (without kids I think) trying to discuss this. I'm glad they are thinking about it.
I suppose what is needed is some new really thoughtful legislation, and a really decent setup for sorting out custody/access. I don't like F4J much as I said - they do smack of self pity and guilt trippery .
Actually at one point my son shared his time equally between his dad and me, in his teens, It was his choice and I let him try it. Eventually he came back to live with me. This was mainly because he didn;t like his dad's new partner and also because he wanted to see more of his half sister and brother, He tolerated my husband.
Sorry I know that is anecdotal. But maybe children should be given the choice (where it is viable of course).
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Hollis said:
What? Am I missing something here?
Maidmarian
Stubborn Socialist
Purely anecdotal , but I know of several cases , including my own, where the father was never denied access, but INSISTED on going to court over the issue & having "won" proceeded to fail to turn up to see the kids & used EVERY means to disrupt the ex-partner`s life.It seems that women can be forced to give access, but can do nothing to insist that it`s taken up !!!!
Having said that, I think most PARENTS just try their best & generally muddle through. I am a bit suspicious of F4J though, as the TWO members of it I`ve met (highly unrepresentative sample I know) are of the "Feminism has gone too far" ilk.
Edited for typos
Having said that, I think most PARENTS just try their best & generally muddle through. I am a bit suspicious of F4J though, as the TWO members of it I`ve met (highly unrepresentative sample I know) are of the "Feminism has gone too far" ilk.
Edited for typos
Is Pennimania suggesting that the label 'lesbian' is all right - but 'feminist' isn't? I would hope NOT!
Also at what point does a child have the acumen to make an informed choice? (Mind I am playing Devil advocate here.)
Little misshissyfit - even inadequate fathers are better than NO father at all (only the downright dangerous need banning from contact), surely?
Also at what point does a child have the acumen to make an informed choice? (Mind I am playing Devil advocate here.)
Little misshissyfit - even inadequate fathers are better than NO father at all (only the downright dangerous need banning from contact), surely?
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
Still not an agument. he could have gone to a solicitor and begun proceedings for contact. The process isnt difficult.He did choose not to use the avenue open to him to get an order which would have allowed him contact
I dont have sympathy with a parent of either sex ( and have known both) who say oh I couldnt it was too hard etc.
I'd walk barefoot over glass for the rest of my days becuase I love my children, I;'d work night and day to pay for the fight to keep seeing them every week if they couldnt live with me.
But then I love my children so much that they are the centre of my existence and what i do for much of the time I do for them.
Some parents dont feel the same way and dont act upon it, like your mate. Its the children who miss out.
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
I think as longas the children arent placed in any danger then no parents shouldnt be denied contact. That said I think if an inadquate parent is making a child unhappy they should have the right to say that and be believed.They should also have the right to say I love my violent or abuseive parent and I should have the right to see that parents without my other parent being assaulted ( and therefore statutory agencies should be putting measures/services in place to allow this to happen)chrissie said:
The problemw ith court proceedings ( and thus the fathers rights movement) is that children arent represented themselves in these proceedings.
We need to start listening to children
pennimania
still dre and drooling
chrissie said:
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
Hollis said:
So shouldnt moan about it when they dont fancy getting involved in legal action and dont see their children as a result. I'd be worrying about how my child was going to feel about me thinking I cared more about avoiding court than making an effort to fight for them.
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
Not at all. What is his argument???
He chose not to fight for his child through the courts although that avenue was open to him and easily accessible.
He chose not to fight for his child through the courts although that avenue was open to him and easily accessible.
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
There are good and bad parents in all of this. Im not defending her tactics but dont believe he should moan about not seeing his child if he chose not to highlight her tactics in court.
I wouldnt say a parent who withheld contact without cause was a shining example of good parenting either you know
You dont have to stand on one side or the other.
It looks like that poor kid has two parents who have both failed him over the same issues doesnt it?
I wouldnt say a parent who withheld contact without cause was a shining example of good parenting either you know
You dont have to stand on one side or the other.It looks like that poor kid has two parents who have both failed him over the same issues doesnt it?
chrissie said:
I don't know what this programme is, but anything away from the adversarial system where lawyers get good money for arguing whatever and then going into appeals and so on is a lot better. basically, trying to find a solution that works for everyone.
But the court's power are all very negative for the child, either fines or imprisonment and neither of those outcomes are good the child or either parent. A choice between putting the mother of your child, who the child presumably loves, in jail and not seeing your child should not be the only choice open to people who's partner is not allowing contact.
laptop said:
a bit of no taxation without representation argument here, you could equally argue that men who are now having to face their responsabilities towards their offsprings (I remember reading an hilarious article about "sperm bandits"
, the fact is that they willingly had a shag) are facing theirs. the arguments are a bit muddied in that they may care for their children in an open way that might not have been possible years ago, and when years ago, it would have been strange for a dad to look after kids (unless he was a widower, maybe).edited to say: in the context of a one parent family, of course.
Hmmm, the fact remains that there are mothers who thwart contact - the fnf figures quote a report as saying 40% of respondent mothers admitted doing so.
Did anyone else read the Aaronovitch article?
About Mrs. V who lost custody of her kids after thwarting contact with their father.
I guess thats one of the main F4J issues, that even if the court awards contact, it isn't guaranteed to happen.
Courts are not infallible, they tend to be presided over by a bunch of ruling class toffs who don't have a clue about the real world.
Did anyone else read the Aaronovitch article?
About Mrs. V who lost custody of her kids after thwarting contact with their father.
I guess thats one of the main F4J issues, that even if the court awards contact, it isn't guaranteed to happen.
Courts are not infallible, they tend to be presided over by a bunch of ruling class toffs who don't have a clue about the real world.
jerseymonkey
New Member
Haven't read all the thread so apols if someone's already said this but I have to admit to being a tad dubious about fathers for justice. I'm not entirely convinced that the fathers who are denied access to their children are denied access without good reason - presuming that a father has parental responsibility (and it was admittedly pretty bad that it wasn't automatic until recently), it's not that easy to deny contact. Having read numerous cases in which fathers who are violent and otherwise abusive were granted access, I tend to wonder what has to happen for a father to be refused. I believe that only abotu 2% of cases result in denied access, and I'm sure that there's the odd case where the father is blameless, but I find it hard to believe that that's usual.
Incedentally, I work on the assumption (as does the court) that the child's best interests should be served (not the father's, and they may not produce the same effect). If there is such animosity between the parents that it creates a situation where it is not tenable for the child to see both parents, and the judge decides that the mother is best suited to look after the child, then I'm inclined to think that it's in the child's best interests not to be subjected to the stress caused by access. Unfortunate and sad when it happens, but in rare circumstcnes I think it is for the best.
Incedentally, I work on the assumption (as does the court) that the child's best interests should be served (not the father's, and they may not produce the same effect). If there is such animosity between the parents that it creates a situation where it is not tenable for the child to see both parents, and the judge decides that the mother is best suited to look after the child, then I'm inclined to think that it's in the child's best interests not to be subjected to the stress caused by access. Unfortunate and sad when it happens, but in rare circumstcnes I think it is for the best.
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
But thats not what happens when you go to the family courtmeanoldman said:
it isnt the only choice open to people whos parent is denying contact.I know that its an avenue open to the court should all else fail and should the parent with care consistently defy court orders. However for that to even be the case the parent who is absent needs to have applied to the court for orders several times and for the parent with care to deliberately defy those orders repeatedly. Usually it happens in stages, the court officer mnakes recommendations after meeting with both parents and discussing concerns with each and reasons why they believe it would be in the CHILDS best interests ( and these interviews are child focused, it theres any me me me expressed then you are onto a loser with the officer, they are only interested in the childs interests) then an order is made, usually following the officers recommendation.This process would have to happen over and over with a new order being made each time if a parent were denying contact and parents denying contact without reason are usually pretty transparent IMO
Only when Parents repeatedly and obviously defy that order do any other measures get used or even discussed by the courts.
You cant say That you didnt go to court and challenge a parents denial of access to the other parent on the grounds they'd be imrisoned becuase usually all that is needed is for the court to make an order that the child be presented for contact. Most parents arent so militant that they repeatedly defy court orders.
Use of committal proceedings or fines in contact cases is rare and the offence is contempt of court if you do defy the order. the threat is explained to you if you do say you wont comply. Even abused parents like I was are frightened enough at the prospect of losing their child that they will comply with a court order until such time as they can prove conclusively that contact is not in the childs best interests.
Cid
Proper break this time
Right, this thread seems to have been sidetracked from the original issue, but i would argue that the tangent is at least, if not more, interesting than the original point so I'll start by talking about that...
Firstly, I've seen a huge amount of absurd generalisations here - to adress FH first - you say that in your experience, as a community activist etc most fathers you have met are ignorant, selfish etc... What the hell do you expect to come across as an active member of the community? Good/mediocre families will quietly get on with their lives, whereas mothers in bad family situations are obviously going to want someone to talk to - ie you. Women associate better with women, and men will naturally feel a bit threatened by someone like you, therefore you are talking from an exceptionally biased position.
Before you jump on this let me generalise as you have done:
Mothers will tend to be more emotional than fathers, as they approach middle age we begin to encounter the problems created by hormonal imbalances we see radical fluctuations in temper and mood. Mothers tend to be much more possesive of their kids, they are, for example, prone to excessive nagging.
Women in general are more materialistic, they are possesive too - but only when they want to be. Often they seem to care much more about themselves than their friends and those they are in relationships with.
Now all that can easily be argued as true - i can cite lots of examples too (even go as far as to say most mothers I've encountered, I wouldn't be lying or exaggerating either), but there's no fucking way I'd apply it to a real world interpretation of the situation.
My dad died when I was 6, it devastated me - one of the nicest people I've ever had the pleasure to know. He worked his way up from the son of a welsh steelworker with a job in a bookbinding factory (don't romanticise that if you don't know about it - fucking hard, nasty job back then - 1960s) to an author, playwright, actor, director and producer for the BBC. He worked fucking hard (and no he didn't get silly amounts of money for it either) and spent most of his free time with us (me and my sister). When he died (lung cancer) everything went to shit - my mother was dealing with depression (her dad, another of the nicest people around, died four days before) whilst trying to work (she's an architect) and look after us... At this point i have to give a little shout to the beeb, who dealt with it far better than Thatcher ever could have by giving my sister and i a pension to pay for upbringing and education.
I had some father figures along the way - my uncle David was there for me and my mum when he could be but his wife was diagnosed with breast cancer around the time my grandmother (on his and my mother's side) died, and she died shortly afterwards. So he became extremely depressed too (ahhh, happy times). I latched on to the dad's of various friends, and they all helped me out brilliantly, but there's nothing like having a real father. My sister, by the way, would agree with me on this... Whilst we're on the subject of her I think she'd disagree with a lot of FHs notions that women and girls are all lovely and well behaved. My mates tend to stick by me through thick and thin, I trust them implicitly and have never been given any reason not too. My sister's mates (almost exclusively female because she went to a girl's school) all turned out to be backstabbing harpies of the most evil form. Shes never even worked out why they decided to turn their backs on her (and then each other), nor could i for that matter and we're both pretty good character judges. From what i see and here this isn't uncommon at all.
I know I'm not getting to the point, but it's important I tell you these things first so i can make it clear... God, this is taking a while - right, so gender constructs, what are they? We live in a society that is slowly escaping patriarchy, and it is steadily coming to people's attention that the percieved differences between men and women are as much created by society as by any real distinctions... Same goes for race, sexuality etc. My circle of friends is populated entirely by people who would never dream of hurting someone under any normal circumstances and most of them are guys.
So, what I'm saying is that it's utterly hopeless to define people by gender, in fact it's plain fucking stupid - individuals are just that, individuals...
In the family case - kids need dads, end of. They need mothers too, both contribute in different ways to the kids development - I won't generalise about how since in a good family the role of 'father' and 'mother' swaps between the partners anyway (really just another social construct that creates divisions by association), you just need that biological connection as a kid, whether the father is a bit of a dick or not (as everyone has said the situation is different with fathers who abuse their families).
FH, your views on mothers being these poor, frail things abused by evil fathers are almost mysogenistic. I know plenty of women who wouldn't stand for any shit from men, and would easily deal with it using that most cruel of methods, the 'swift kick to the testicles'. The fact that you've chosen bad fathers for your kids is no-one's fault but your own, if they're as bad as you say they are you shouldn't have slept with them in the first place, common sense, no? Of course there're exceptions - an ex of mine's boyfriend turned into a bit of a nutter after developing a speed addiction for example, but for the most part people don't change from being generally kind and compassionate to being complete wankers over the course of a year or so. Same goes for men that marry complete bitches. I'm aware that some people may read prejudice in that section of my post, i'm trying to put this as best I can, try to fill in the blanks for yourselves.
Um, i can't be arsed to respond to the f4j - not because I have any particular love for them, because i know I can't make a reasoned assessment of their organisation without having a large, unbiased sample of cases.
Quick point to lilmisshissyfit - It's entirely possible that meanoldman's mate feels intimated by his ex, doesn't want to put his kids through more legal shit, and has become somewhat resigned to a bad situation. You also have to think of costs in time and money, obviously kids should come above both, but at the same time you have to be a role model... Overall it's probably just a hopelessly confusing situation for the poor guy, one that it's easy to lose hope in.
Right, I think that may have made sense - but it was long so undoubtedly I've made a few mistakes.
Firstly, I've seen a huge amount of absurd generalisations here - to adress FH first - you say that in your experience, as a community activist etc most fathers you have met are ignorant, selfish etc... What the hell do you expect to come across as an active member of the community? Good/mediocre families will quietly get on with their lives, whereas mothers in bad family situations are obviously going to want someone to talk to - ie you. Women associate better with women, and men will naturally feel a bit threatened by someone like you, therefore you are talking from an exceptionally biased position.
Before you jump on this let me generalise as you have done:
Mothers will tend to be more emotional than fathers, as they approach middle age we begin to encounter the problems created by hormonal imbalances we see radical fluctuations in temper and mood. Mothers tend to be much more possesive of their kids, they are, for example, prone to excessive nagging.
Women in general are more materialistic, they are possesive too - but only when they want to be. Often they seem to care much more about themselves than their friends and those they are in relationships with.
Now all that can easily be argued as true - i can cite lots of examples too (even go as far as to say most mothers I've encountered, I wouldn't be lying or exaggerating either), but there's no fucking way I'd apply it to a real world interpretation of the situation.
My dad died when I was 6, it devastated me - one of the nicest people I've ever had the pleasure to know. He worked his way up from the son of a welsh steelworker with a job in a bookbinding factory (don't romanticise that if you don't know about it - fucking hard, nasty job back then - 1960s) to an author, playwright, actor, director and producer for the BBC. He worked fucking hard (and no he didn't get silly amounts of money for it either) and spent most of his free time with us (me and my sister). When he died (lung cancer) everything went to shit - my mother was dealing with depression (her dad, another of the nicest people around, died four days before) whilst trying to work (she's an architect) and look after us... At this point i have to give a little shout to the beeb, who dealt with it far better than Thatcher ever could have by giving my sister and i a pension to pay for upbringing and education.
I had some father figures along the way - my uncle David was there for me and my mum when he could be but his wife was diagnosed with breast cancer around the time my grandmother (on his and my mother's side) died, and she died shortly afterwards. So he became extremely depressed too (ahhh, happy times). I latched on to the dad's of various friends, and they all helped me out brilliantly, but there's nothing like having a real father. My sister, by the way, would agree with me on this... Whilst we're on the subject of her I think she'd disagree with a lot of FHs notions that women and girls are all lovely and well behaved. My mates tend to stick by me through thick and thin, I trust them implicitly and have never been given any reason not too. My sister's mates (almost exclusively female because she went to a girl's school) all turned out to be backstabbing harpies of the most evil form. Shes never even worked out why they decided to turn their backs on her (and then each other), nor could i for that matter and we're both pretty good character judges. From what i see and here this isn't uncommon at all.
I know I'm not getting to the point, but it's important I tell you these things first so i can make it clear... God, this is taking a while - right, so gender constructs, what are they? We live in a society that is slowly escaping patriarchy, and it is steadily coming to people's attention that the percieved differences between men and women are as much created by society as by any real distinctions... Same goes for race, sexuality etc. My circle of friends is populated entirely by people who would never dream of hurting someone under any normal circumstances and most of them are guys.
So, what I'm saying is that it's utterly hopeless to define people by gender, in fact it's plain fucking stupid - individuals are just that, individuals...
In the family case - kids need dads, end of. They need mothers too, both contribute in different ways to the kids development - I won't generalise about how since in a good family the role of 'father' and 'mother' swaps between the partners anyway (really just another social construct that creates divisions by association), you just need that biological connection as a kid, whether the father is a bit of a dick or not (as everyone has said the situation is different with fathers who abuse their families).
FH, your views on mothers being these poor, frail things abused by evil fathers are almost mysogenistic. I know plenty of women who wouldn't stand for any shit from men, and would easily deal with it using that most cruel of methods, the 'swift kick to the testicles'. The fact that you've chosen bad fathers for your kids is no-one's fault but your own, if they're as bad as you say they are you shouldn't have slept with them in the first place, common sense, no? Of course there're exceptions - an ex of mine's boyfriend turned into a bit of a nutter after developing a speed addiction for example, but for the most part people don't change from being generally kind and compassionate to being complete wankers over the course of a year or so. Same goes for men that marry complete bitches. I'm aware that some people may read prejudice in that section of my post, i'm trying to put this as best I can, try to fill in the blanks for yourselves.
Um, i can't be arsed to respond to the f4j - not because I have any particular love for them, because i know I can't make a reasoned assessment of their organisation without having a large, unbiased sample of cases.
Quick point to lilmisshissyfit - It's entirely possible that meanoldman's mate feels intimated by his ex, doesn't want to put his kids through more legal shit, and has become somewhat resigned to a bad situation. You also have to think of costs in time and money, obviously kids should come above both, but at the same time you have to be a role model... Overall it's probably just a hopelessly confusing situation for the poor guy, one that it's easy to lose hope in.
Right, I think that may have made sense - but it was long so undoubtedly I've made a few mistakes.
Good post, Cid. I think you've hit the nail on the head there in terms of what can happen to kids who lose fathers in one way or another. My mum lost her dad to a brain haemorrhage when she was 12 and I think it still gets to her sometimes, especially when my brother and me don't seem to appreciate our father (and this was nearly forty years ago).
pennimania
still dre and drooling
((Nemo and Cid)) I said the urban young men were a credit to us 
my husband lost his father when he was 5 and that has left him with an aching wound that will never be healed. Nearly 40 years later he still has troubling dreams about him
I think this issue is very complex and I am probably repeating myself so maybe I should bow out from this thread, but there are some brilliant contributions on here.
my husband lost his father when he was 5 and that has left him with an aching wound that will never be healed. Nearly 40 years later he still has troubling dreams about him
I think this issue is very complex and I am probably repeating myself so maybe I should bow out from this thread, but there are some brilliant contributions on here.
I agree with loads of what Cid said too, most especially about the gender roles switching between the parents in ideal circumstances, and about both men and women being capable of selfless good and awful bad. I also thought it was a good point that happy families often keep themselves to themselves, and while I know fat hamster disapproves of the nuclear family structure (happy or not), I feel that she would have to acknowledge that in her roles in society she's much less likely to have come across them, and they her, than families where it has all gone wrong, for some of the reasons that Cid gave.
To add my own little anecdote fwiw, mr kitten (along with his two older sisters) was abandoned by his mother as a baby (she was young and immature, overwhelmed with the responsibility of parenthood, and ran off with another man, with whom she immediately had two more children - go figure) and they were raised by their father - a more loving, caring and selfless man you couldn't imagine (I'm so lucky - he is a wonderful grandfather to my daughter and I pray that he lives forever). He was terribly worried about the effect that being motherless would have on them, so remarried mainly to give them a mother figure...sadly stepmom turned out to be an abuser (both of my husband and his siblings, and her own son, my half-brother-in-law), so they divorced, and he took on the care of his new son too. Throughout all this he was also studying, and working, so that he could provide for his family financially. The men in the family - my husband, his father and his half-brother, have all been enormously forgiving of my husband's natural mother and his stepmother, who both treated them so appallingly, and they built relationships with both women in adulthood, and let bygones be bygones. His older sisters, though, possibly because they were that much older when they were abandoned, not only went completely haywire (both have several children that they can barely cope with, and both have been in prison more than once), but were completely unable to forgive, and bitterly hated their mother (up to her death two years ago - the funeral got pretty ugly) and their stepmother (which is to me totally understandable, but is in enormous contrast to how my husband, his father and his brother feel and react).
Now confusing and contradictory as all that is, I don't for a second think that it's representative of anything, except perhaps of the fact that you can't generalise when it comes to families. Maybe you could a bit 50 years ago when patriarchy ruled in most homes, but I truly believe and hope that these days gender roles in parents are much more fluid. I don't know whether children ideally need two parents to be happy, I haven't got enough experience to say, but I think saying that mothers make better parents is wrong.
To add my own little anecdote fwiw, mr kitten (along with his two older sisters) was abandoned by his mother as a baby (she was young and immature, overwhelmed with the responsibility of parenthood, and ran off with another man, with whom she immediately had two more children - go figure) and they were raised by their father - a more loving, caring and selfless man you couldn't imagine (I'm so lucky - he is a wonderful grandfather to my daughter and I pray that he lives forever). He was terribly worried about the effect that being motherless would have on them, so remarried mainly to give them a mother figure...sadly stepmom turned out to be an abuser (both of my husband and his siblings, and her own son, my half-brother-in-law), so they divorced, and he took on the care of his new son too. Throughout all this he was also studying, and working, so that he could provide for his family financially. The men in the family - my husband, his father and his half-brother, have all been enormously forgiving of my husband's natural mother and his stepmother, who both treated them so appallingly, and they built relationships with both women in adulthood, and let bygones be bygones. His older sisters, though, possibly because they were that much older when they were abandoned, not only went completely haywire (both have several children that they can barely cope with, and both have been in prison more than once), but were completely unable to forgive, and bitterly hated their mother (up to her death two years ago - the funeral got pretty ugly) and their stepmother (which is to me totally understandable, but is in enormous contrast to how my husband, his father and his brother feel and react).
Now confusing and contradictory as all that is, I don't for a second think that it's representative of anything, except perhaps of the fact that you can't generalise when it comes to families. Maybe you could a bit 50 years ago when patriarchy ruled in most homes, but I truly believe and hope that these days gender roles in parents are much more fluid. I don't know whether children ideally need two parents to be happy, I haven't got enough experience to say, but I think saying that mothers make better parents is wrong.
LilMissHissyFit
Disturbed in a pink bra
Cid said:
Didnt say it wasnt did I???
I just dont think even all that considered he has a right to whinge about how hard done by he is it if hes not going to do anything about it
To me thats just an example of how some fathers set out to demonise mothers and yet havent actually done anything to try and change the situation they find themselves in if they have so much to offer as a parent.
Its not going to be much of a consolation when the kid is older either. They'll see a mother whos brought them up and a Dad whos pissed off and who comes up with what will sound like a lame excuse at the end of the day. It will sound to a kid like, well frankly you didnt matter so much to me that I wanted to go and fight for you.
However you justify it thats what the child will see becuase mum was there and Dad well, mum said he didnt want to know( or just didnt talk about it) and Dad returns expecting to be welcomed with open arms.
he wont be, he'll be a stranger and he'll only have himself to blame for that loss of a relationship with that child.
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