fascist infiltration of the left

[Paul Marsh]

What's the betting that one consequence of this issue is that Searchlight offer to "inspect" the SWPs membership list so as to "check" for other infiltrators?

 

[HST]

They won't get kicked out of uni for being fascists. Someone mentioned Patrick Harrington - he was a fascist at North West London Poly in the 80s. A very left wing institution then. I believe he wound up being taught as an individual (no lectures or seminars) and generally being treated like a leper. That's what'll happen to these two. Probably reinforce their fascism unfortunately.

 

[HST]

What's the betting that one consequence of this issue is that Searchlight offer to "inspect" the SWPs membership list so as to "check" for other infiltrators?

You mean they don't already?

 

[Pilgrim]

As soom one named in the article perhaps people will listerned to me on this one. I'm going to say very little as its our internal issue and frankly non off your business.

Absolute nonsense. If I remember correctly, other groups such as trade unions and the Green Party are involved with UAF, and doubtless will be thrilled to know that your incompetant policy of recruiting anyone without asking many or any question (reminiscent of the Foreign Legion methinks) has placed members at risk.

Also, what about those who are not aligned to any group, but simply supported UAF as they considered it a good cause. Getting threatened and abused by the fash when you've signed up to take that risk is one thing, it comes with the territory and most anti-fascists know this, and I've had low-level harrassment myself, but suffering the same sort of thing simply because you left your details on a meeting attendance sheet is another matter entirely.

The least the SWP could do is try to find out what information has been passed to the fash, and liaise with other groups and individuals to make them aware of the potential risks (if any) that they are now facing. It remains to be seen whether this will actually happen.

Finally, my sympathy to those who have been betrayed by these people. Its always awful to know that comrades and friends you worked with were wearing more than one face. Sorry guys.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

They won't get kicked out of uni for being fascists. Someone mentioned Patrick Harrington - he was a fascist at North West London Poly in the 80s. A very left wing institution then. I believe he wound up being taught as an individual (no lectures or seminars) and generally being treated like a leper. That's what'll happen to these two. Probably reinforce their fascism unfortunately.

God that brings back memories. Nasty old fight that one. But in principle of course anything is possible. If the ACPO can ban the BNP from wearing police uniforms in the present climate then given enough pressure you never know...

 

[DaveCinzano]

i don't think anti-fascism is particularly well-served by calls to ban people from jobs or education for the beliefs they hold.

 

[Dr. Christmas]

There's a difference between being a public servant and being the client of a semi-private instituion (which all universities now are).

membership of the BNP can be proscribed from as many govt agencies as Blunkett & co. see fit.

membership of the BNP cannot be proscribed in the private or semi-private secotr for legal and publicity reasons which should be pretty obvious.

 

[Idris2002]

I could see the DUP demanding that Queen's student members of Ógra Sinn Fein be banned, and using bans on fash students as a precedent.

They'd be highly unlikely to get away with it, obv, but they'd still try it on. . . sure you want to be in the same area as the DUP?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Sorry but the people who ran Britain's universities didn't seem to have many qualms about helping the police and government witch-hunt trots in the 60's so claims of academic freedom ring a little hollow.

 

[Idris2002]

And the 1960s have precisely what to do with today?

And who precisely has raised the question of 'academic freedom' here?

 

[DaveCinzano]

Sorry but the people who ran Britain's universities didn't seem to have many qualms about helping the police and government witch-hunt trots in the 60's so claims of academic freedom ring a little hollow.

are you just replying to points you *imagine* people are making?

 

[Dr. Christmas]

which has what to do with anything in the current situation?

Attempts to have them kicked out will fail, or cause protratced litigation which a cash strapped new university (Salford) can;t afford. Appeals to a campaign of persecution against Trots 40 years ago, true or not, means absolutely fuck all here.

 

[HST]

i don't think anti-fascism is particularly well-served by calls to ban people from jobs or education for the beliefs they hold.

I agree, and I think it can actually get them sympathy as it seems that the system has got it in for them. However, as someone who has had to work with a NF member (this was a very long time ago) I think that the response has to come from the fellow students/workers. Let them do their degrees in isolation. BTW, don't think much for their job prospects.

 

[Idris2002]

Well the SWP is the political equivalent of the Sealed Knot society, except they re-enact 1968 instead of the Cromwellian wars. . .

 

[fanciful]

Like anyone on the Manchester left I knew these two nazi scum infiltrators and they were utterly convincing in their role of activist party hacks, not particularly political of course but how many SWPers are? The SWP enabled their advancement through their encouragement of activity before any understanding, but they weren’t the only ones duped by them. I was taken in by them like everyone else.
On one occasion Diane rung me after a meeting and told me that Wentworth was in the usual left pub. We went over to Wentworth to talk things over with him, two cops then appeared out of nowhere. We were able to explain the situation to them and they left us and we went out separate ways. I remember at the time thinking it was a honey trap.
While I like others discussed this with them in the general sense and they came to a WP meeting on anti-fa, where we discussed the need for a no platform organisation in general we never did anything with them. This is no doubt the refounding of AFA that they refer to in their bizarre missive.
So what to do now?
They are of course disgusting people. The SWP need to do some explaining about how they were able to be promoted so rapidly up their (Leninist - joke) organisation. Like Wentworth but more so they must be opposed at their respective universities, people need to make their feelings completely clear that we don’t accept these filthy holocaust lovers anywhere. And by the way the personal is political.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I could see the DUP demanding that Queen's student members of Ógra Sinn Fein be banned, and using bans on fash students as a precedent.

They'd be highly unlikely to get away with it, obv, but they'd still try it on. . . sure you want to be in the same area as the DUP?

Leaving aside for the mo the fact that Paisley has more in common with Grifin than the average Ogra member, I'd like to see them try. Funnily enough the same arguments were raised (not by Shinners though, they wanted to go the airport with hurley sticks) when David Irving visited Trinity College Dublin in the 80's: 'Next they'll be banning the SF speakers, or Palestinians'. It all depends where the pressure for a ban on fascists is coming from, not just the formal legalistic side of things. An angry anti-bnp campus is not one to allow Rectors to start banning left/progressive speakers.

 

[Dr. Christmas]

dream on. you really have no understanding of how university administration works.

besides you've yet to provide evidence of chancellors 'banning left/progressive' speakers anywhere.

What next- academia is inherently right wing and needs an overhaul by Leninists?

 

[Idris2002]

I know of a case of a Jewish lecturer who allowed to fash students to attend her classes. I feel nauseous just typing those words. But in the end she was right, it was better to expose them to the truth than to simply chuck them out.

 

[cockneyrebel]

maybe it does sound 'cultish' but as a member for a while i slip easily into left verbage. Unlike yourself who would never when talking about WP as 'the Group' or 'the fifth international'

You know as well as me that WP would never say it was the fifth international. We say we wanna help build an international but clearly we would never say we were it! Also we never say we’re “the” group as far as I know. I certainly wouldn’t say it.

As for what party means, fair enough that’s another thread, but I did used to hate it when I was in the SWP when people talked about “the” party. Firstly I thought it was cultish and secondly I thought it was stupid because the SWP wasn’t/isn’t a party…..but heh I’ll wait for another thread!

As long as fees are involved the uni can't throw them out for their political views, unless explicitly stated in the uni statutes that BNP members are not welcome as students. Throwing them out for their political views would leave the uni open to a law suit and more free publicity for the BNP. An attempt at Salford Uni to have Wentworth booted failed dismally.

Oh, and by the way, no-one had heard of Tony Wentworth before that campaign, afterwards he didn't have to do anywork to build up his public profile as youth leader of the BNP. Through publicity in the national and academic press, the ANL did all that work for him.

I didn’t mean it would necessary work from a legal point of view. But a mass campaign of 100s could literally stop them from being able to function at uni. They could be blocaded, disrupted etc to an extent which would make it all but impossible for them to continue.

As for getting them publicity, you’d never oppose them on loadsa levels if you thought that. You can’t just sweep the BNP under the carpet…..

 

[flypanam]

So maybe the college can't expell them. But the point is that a concerted campaign by students and staff can force them to leave the college. And that is probably better than someone belting them while they are in attendance of the uni.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

How did I get suckered into a debate with liberals about No Platform on this of all threads.

 

[HST]

How did I get suckered into a debate with liberals about No Platform on this of all threads.

Who you calling a liberal?

 

[Dr. Christmas]

There's no debate about no platform you pious wanker.

Your 'kick them out' plan is legally impossible and will only serve to do all their publicity work for them without them lifting a finger (i.e. they announce themselves as BNP members and leave you to plaster their mug all over the national, anti-fascist and academic press for them).

When will the abject wrong headedness of your tactics penetrate your armour plated Trotskyite skull?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

There's no debate about no platform you pious wanker.

Your 'kick them out' plan is legally impossible and will only serve to do all their publicity work for them without them lifting a finger (i.e. they announce themselves as BNP members and leave you to plaster their mug all over the national, anti-fascist and academic press for them).

When will the abject wrong headedness of your tactics penetrate your armour plated Trotskyite skull?

Fuck off till you learn to argue politely ya twat

 

[Dr. Christmas]

Hmmn.

I don't like my time being wasted by strawmen vendors (bogus introduction of concepts like 'academic freedom' and some nebulous '1960s Trotskyite persecution campaign', with the cherry on the cake being 'left/progressive speaker' banning-vice chancellors.)

Bollocks one and all, and adds little to what has been a sobering debate.

Oh, almost forgot-

 

[HST]

Don't kick them out. Freeze them out. Send them to Coventry.Blank them out. Let them do their degrees but treat them like shit. That's all it needs.

 

[Dr. Christmas]

hear, hear

 

[flypanam]

Don't see why they should be allowed to do their degrees. get them out now.

 

[Dr. Christmas]

have you actually bothered reading the last page and a half?

 

[butchersapron]

Don't see why they should be allowed to do their degrees. get them out now.

Same reasons as banning parties mate, could be us next...