fascist infiltration of the left

[flimsier]

Why not? Get it?

Basic measures.

Fine. Just to suggest you actually suggested that when you didn't is wrong though.

Unless in skimming the thread I've missed one post.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think they have been well used by the BNP and Griffin, not that that means they aren't racists or fascists. I don’t think they can realise the hatred there will be towards them….

do you really mean "well used" or do you mean "badly used"?

Their student lives could well be an utter misery from now on……

I should imagine there are also plenty of people who will get physical….would be just as worried if I was them as any SWPer….if not more worried…..

what do they expect? i think they should consider themselves fortunate to have infiltrated the swp and not some other organisations.

 

[butchersapron]

The thread is still there. I just read it.

Your concern was that levien might be sid james.

When it was worked out that he wasn't, you said you were right to tell people to exercise caution about meeting up away from Marxism.

There was no suggestion of finding out who is was at the uni. You backed off from your concern, same as everyone else, as soon as it was revealed that sid james did not = levien.

Yes, i backed off from expressing any wider concerns because i'd been insulted and ridiculed for being a mummys boy and other such redundant crap - i made my point to others and on others threads at the time (esp the one where the matching IP address was first brought up by the editor). The IP was from the uni - no one else on that thread seemed capable of drawing the obvious conclusion - and no one was responding to me. Yes, my original concern was that Levien was SJ - but when proven he wasn't thing the thing goes on - it shouldn't stop there. Clearly it did.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

This is what i remember - in the end i just got fed up of being insulted for trying to bring peoples attention to something i considered quite serious and stopped posting on that thread.

In fairness your points were just common sense surely. There are people in the swp who take these things seriously. But for quite obvious reasons this type of question is not always top of the list. But that's not the same as saying (as some swps on here have) that the swp should be an 'open' party with nothing to hide. Bollix to that! From some people quite definitely it should.

 

[Squatticus]

gasp...

I'm confused... I thought it was Workers Power that was infiltrating Manchester SWP (according to Lindsey German)?

 

[flimsier]

You were ridiculed because people were under the impression that you were suggesting they shouldn't post that they were going to meet at Marxism.

I agree it shouldn't have stopped. I was just making the point that RednBlack suggesting you were shouted down on that thread because that thread wasn't the place is not true.

The sort of thing he's liable to call a 'lie'.

If you raised it elsewhere, then I'll take your word for it. I didn't mean to take this ff topic.

 

[flimsier]

In fairness your points were just common sense surely. There are people in the swp who take these things seriously. But for quite obvious reasons this type of question is not always top of the list. But that's not the same as saying (as some swps on here have) that the swp should be an 'open' party with nothing to hide. Bollix to that! From some people quite definitely it should.

When I was a member there was all sorts of advise rearty Notes and so on (obviously moreso with lists). That definitely isn't the case now - but I do think that's because of some twist/ turn/ whatever.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm confused... I thought it was Workers Power that was infiltrating Manchester SWP (according to Lindsey German)?

it was a two-way infiltration, whilst the bnp were infiltrating the swp, which infiltrators had a drink - unwittingly - with some wp members at an rnb night at mmusu. i think.

 

[rednblack]

You were ridiculed because people were under the impression that you were suggesting they shouldn't post that they were going to meet at Marxism.

I agree it shouldn't have stopped. I was just making the point that RednBlack suggesting you were shouted down on that thread because that thread wasn't the place is not true.

The sort of thing he's liable to call a 'lie'.

If you raised it elsewhere, then I'll take your word for it. I didn't mean to take this ff topic.

well, i couldnt remember clearly, maybe i should have made that clearer...
he was shouted down though, accussing him of being a mummy's boy etc is pretty much shouting down.
i can't be arsed to check the thread so fuck it, i don't care whatever

 

[butchersapron]

In fairness your points were just common sense surely. There are people in the swp who take these things seriously. But for quite obvious reasons this type of question is not always top of the list. But that's not the same as saying (as some swps on here have) that the swp should be an 'open' party with nothing to hide. Bollix to that! From some people quite definitely it should.

Yes, they are what i consider to be simple common sense - nothing extradordinary. But it doesn't seem to get through to some people - i do expect there'll be some internal trainning or something off the back of this - at least i hope so.

(And i'm happy that you seem to recognise i'm not on some point scoring trip on this thread)

 

[butchersapron]

You were ridiculed because people were under the impression that you were suggesting they shouldn't post that they were going to meet at Marxism.

I agree it shouldn't have stopped. I was just making the point that RednBlack suggesting you were shouted down on that thread because that thread wasn't the place is not true.

The sort of thing he's liable to call a 'lie'.

If you raised it elsewhere, then I'll take your word for it. I didn't mean to take this ff topic.

Ok - last one - but i was shouted down, and even warned off going to marxism. Respond if you wish, but i'll leave this one alone.

 

[rednblack]

it was a two-way infiltration, whilst the bnp were infiltrating the swp, which infiltrators had a drink - unwittingly - with some wp members at an rnb night at mmusu. i think.

and don't forget manchester swp were infiltrating the bnp at the same time, some of the swp ranters shouting at the bnp during the election count were actually bnp members, and some of the bnp activists they were ranting at were actually swp members-one a wp member as well

 

[Pickman's model]

and don't forget manchester swp were infiltrating the bnp at the same time, some of the swp ranters shouting at the bnp during the election count were actually bnp members, and some of the bnp activists were actually swp members-one a wp member as well

is that the full sp?

 

[rednblack]

is that the full sp?

cw?

 

[Pickman's model]

cw?

am?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

When I was a member there was all sorts of advise rearty Notes and so on (obviously moreso with lists). That definitely isn't the case now - but I do think that's because of some twist/ turn/ whatever.

I honestly don't agree mate. There was always a contradictory policy. Advice about Party notes, people told to be careful leaving events, activists asked to come and sleep in the centre etc but at the same time absolutely no real security about who wandered around the national office or was given the job of ringing people for national events etc. I do think that the priorities of organisers in getting good people as involved at as high a level as possible was not always sufficiently balanced by other concerns, not least their political level, and crucuially any minimal security concerns. Same then as now. Political turns don't come into it.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Seriously though I’d be worried if I was Dianne and Joe. I can’t believe they’ve gotta go back to uni. The BNP obviously don’t give a shit about them if they’re prepared to put them through that much misery and physical risk…..

More pawns in the game…..

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Yes, they are what i consider to be simple common sense - nothing extradordinary. But it doesn't seem to get through to some people - i do expect there'll be some internal trainning or something off the back of this - at least i hope so.

(And i'm happy that you seem to recognise i'm not on some point scoring trip on this thread)

Not at all, we disagree about most things but you are a serious lad and this a fucking serious issue. And by no means an internal swp one either. I would imagine the likes of Bambo and Smith are cringing big time and vowing never to let this happen again.

 

[cockneyrebel]

That was hilarious about LG saying the SWP was infiltrated by WP. Utter madness.

If it had of been true would the SWP have been even sorer after a double entry?

 

[rednblack]

lets hope they actually do something that will prevent this from happening again

however i don't think they can, the swp is burning up members old and new alike that if they want to keep up this level of hyper activity they have no choice

 

[Nigel Irritable]

As soom one named in the article perhaps people will listerned to me on this one. I'm going to say very little as its our internal issue and frankly non off your business.

You idiot. These people were involved in the SWP, but they were also put into positions of responsibility in various other bodies by the SWP. This is as much the business of anyone who was in UAF or Respect as it is members of the SWP. The same goes for people who went to Marxism or people who were involved in any other campaigning with them. This is not something that can be kept "internal" to the SWP because it isn't an internal matter.

That said - holy shit. I'm still trying to work out what the consequences will be. Nothing good anyway.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

lets hope they actually do something that will prevent this from happening again

however i don't think they can, the swp is burning up members old and new alike that if they want to keep up this level of hyper activity they have no choice

Like I said earlier I don't agree that the political and security questions can be conflated like this. You can have active new members given jobs to do without elevating them within weeks/months into national positions that compromise security with absolutely no checks. If anything this is the result of a tension between common sense measures and over-zealous practitioners of the open door policy. Something even the Bolsheviks had no pat answer to.

 

[rednblack]

If anything this is the result of a tension between common sense measures and over-zealous practitioners of the open door policy. Something even the Bolsheviks had no pat answer to.

i don't think the common sense measures have been in place for a long time, when i joined i had access to the members list litrerally 2 days later!
now things like that can be changed, but i think one way for the swp to tighten up would be to calm down and concentrate on fewer things

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Seriously though I’d be worried if I was Dianne and Joe. I can’t believe they’ve gotta go back to uni. The BNP obviously don’t give a shit about them if they’re prepared to put them through that much misery and physical risk…..

More pawns in the game…..

Perhaps Joe and Dianne are well aware of the problems they are going to face when they get back to Uni...there will be political capital and publicity a pleanty to be made out of any attack on them.

It might feel easier to see them as simple dupes, who on being cast aside by the BNP will come to their senses, but they could well be up to the necks even more than people on these boards have so far imagined...the game could be a lot longer than merely embarassing (and putting the wind up) Manchester SWP.

Louis Mac

 

[flypanam]

Perhaps Joe and Dianne are well aware of the problems they are going to face when they get back to Uni...there will be political capital and publicity a pleanty to be made out of any attack on them.

Agreed there, i'd push to have the feckers expelled from uni for being in the BNP, or at least push for the SU to carry out a name and shame policy of all bnp members. Apush amoung teaching staff to refuse to teach them would be better than a physical attack in my opinion.

 

[cockneyrebel]

You could be right Louis.

But there are some physical people out there on the left as well as right and while they might know they’re putting themselves in danger of being severely hospitalised they might not.

In terms of the BNP making political capital I don’t suppose they’ll get much press coverage on a story of a couple of hospitalised members. Hardly big news! They might not even know who did it…..

In any case there lives could be made a misery in many ways other than physical attacks. As for name and shame, they’ve pretty much done it, what would be the point in that!

Agree that a campaign to drive them out of the uni would be good. The bigger that campaign the better. If 100s were involved it would work…..

 

[cockneyrebel]

As a petty side point do you really regard the SWP as a party flypanman? Surely the definition of a party means representing something and the SWP in tiny and clearly doesn’t represent anything in real terms. While it might aspire to be a party it’s clearly not by any real definition at the moment….

Also don’t you think there’s something cultish about saying “the” party….

 

[Dr. Christmas]

No it wouldn't.

As long as fees are involved the uni can't throw them out for their political views, unless explicitly stated in the uni statutes that BNP members are not welcome as students. Throwing them out for their political views would leave the uni open to a law suit and more free publicity for the BNP. An attempt at Salford Uni to have Wentworth booted failed dismally.

Oh, and by the way, no-one had heard of Tony Wentworth before that campaign, afterwards he didn't have to do anywork to build up his public profile as youth leader of the BNP. Through publicity in the national and academic press, the ANL did all that work for him.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

As a petty side point do you really regard the SWP as a party flypanman? Surely the definition of a party means representing something and the SWP in tiny and clearly doesn’t represent anything in real terms. While it might aspire to be a party it’s clearly not by any real definition at the moment….

Also don’t you think there’s something cultish about saying “the” party….

your first five words summed this up

 

[flypanam]

As a petty side point do you really regard the SWP as a party flypanman? Surely the definition of a party means representing something and the SWP in tiny and clearly doesn’t represent anything in real terms. While it might aspire to be a party it’s clearly not by any real definition at the moment….

Also don’t you think there’s something cultish about saying “the” party….

your right it is a petty point, and right now is not the place to discuss definitions of the word party as found in the manifesto or in present usage.

maybe it does sound 'cultish' but as a member for a while i slip easily into left verbage. Unlike yourself who would never when talking about WP as 'the Group' or 'the fifth international' etc

If people think they can't be expelled and i'm sure they can for holding views that are likely to discriminate or cause offence of a racial or sexual manner. Students were i work certainly can. then i think the lecturers refusing to teach is a runner...