fascist infiltration of the left

[Idris2002]

What are you on about? It was Idris who said if we managed to ban the nazis they'd be coming for Sinn Fein in Queens Uni next. Are they 'progressive' or not? Wasn't my strawman old chap. Do keep up.

That's not quite what I said. I said the dupes would try it on, I didn't say they'd get away with it. I was just trying to point out the company you'd be objectively keeping.

 

[Idris2002]

I notice with some quiet satisfaction that not one anarchist has bothered to challenge this middle of the road shite. Attack the swp till the face is blue but defend a basic position on why it is worth confronting fascism head on and why it doesn't just give them publicity...not a fecking chance.

Genuine questions:

why should anarchists 'challenge this middle road of the road shite'?

Should any position that happens to be 'middle of the road' automatically be challenged?

What if those in the middle of the road happen to be right?

What if there happens to be some common ground between their positions and those of the anarchists?


There's no argument here about the need to confront the far right. There is debate over the best way to do it; your resort to ad hominem attacks is a pretty good sign of who's winning the debate.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Has there been any word from any of the infiltrated organisations - SWP, UAF, Respect, Stop the War etc - on these events yet?

 

[Solidarnosc]

Full details will come soon, I guess.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

We'll see.

I will be particularly interested to see what investigations are carried out by Respect, UAF and Stop the War into how exactly these people gained prominence in those organisations. Did the SWP just appoint them to various positions?

 

[MACHINE]

I have been to party meetings in the past of SWP/Respect this has shocked me. I doubt I’ll ever go again, I bet the BNP have my details now I am so angry and afraid. I would imagine the party is highly infiltrated if this is anything to go by, why else would they be willing to lose such high value spies?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Hmmm. First post is on a thread about fascists and you are insinuating that the BNP has more spies in a left organisation...

 

[DaveCinzano]

*sniff sniff*

hmmm

 

[dennisr]

*sniff sniff*

hmmm

aye, funny smell and a sudden interest

 

[butchersapron]

Are you lot not the most useless tag team ever?

I notice with some quiet satisfaction that not one anarchist has bothered to challenge this middle of the road shite. Attack the swp till the face is blue but defend a basic position on why it is worth confronting fascism head on and why it doesn't just give them publicity...not a fecking chance.

This is just pathetic.

 

[Cajmere]

Would the BNP put their efforts into following up on their June 10 vote or duffing up a few Manchester SWP ? Be careful yeah but I know what I think their priorities are.

They seem likely to use this to have a go at the RUC on their website.

If this was the other way round, the RUC could be looking at blanket media coverage tomorrow. But that isnt going to happen, not that it damages the BNP when it happens, quite the opposite in fact.

Politically the SWP will now have to admit that not all BNP'ers are mindless boot boys.

 

[layabout]

So Redwatch is okay then, is it? Since when did the Swappies have a monopoly on intimidating, hounding and boycotting their political opponents?

Who's talking about Redwatch?

What the fuck makes you think that thousands of BNP members are responsible or agree with the tactics of Redwatch?

Yes I know Collet doing a sly one with Redwatch on the BBC expose, but Redwatch is no excuse to take the law into your own hands. If you feel that someone is organising violence against you, report it to the police.

And why would a sensible discussion about the evils or racism and other bigotry do you no good?

Expand on that please.

And since you are so anti SWP members giving fascists a hard time, perhaps you would be even-handed enough to condemn those on the far right who have burned houses and cars belonging to ANL activists, graffiti on the homes of anti-fascist activists, threatening phone calls and obscene mail sent to their homes?

I am anti anyone give anyone else a hard time for their beliefs. You're like a child for Christ sakes! "They started it! They started it!"

Look at the Redwatch website. Their words are no different from yours. "Let's give the Reds a 'hard' time"

"Perhaps you would be good enough to condemn Holocaust survivors being sent pictures of concentration camps with the words "Wish you were here" scrawled across them?

You're too fucking right I would condem anything like that. The whole reason why I left was because of sickening racism from one particular BNP activist who was too high up in the party for me to do anything about.

Besides, it isn't as though Swappies aren't hounded far and wide (often justifiably) by the tabloids and many posters on these boards, including me.

You are assuming that I am condoning what Redwatch get up to. I don't. Redwatch hardly looks like the collective work of the BNP membership. Holding the BNP responsible for Redwatch, is as fuckwitted as holding Seinn Feinn responsible for the IRA.

They aren't nearly as popular as they themselves would like to believe, but they do at least try to argue their point (misguided though they often are) in an intelligent and coherent manner. While I may not like their tactics and blind obedience to their leadership, I can at least have a decent argument with them about the issues at hand. And I respect them for arguing their points despite the level of opposition from posters on these boards, including myself.

Again you are assuming every BNP member out there condones violence.

Is every New Labour member fair game for violence looking at the amount of Iraqis that have lost their lives?

 

[urbanrevolt]

The BNP is a fascist party. Fascists maim and murder. That’s primarily what I meant by ‘they’ when I posted earlier but I had only just found out that the deception was true so might have been too brief in my arguments. But are the BNP violent fascists? Certainly, they maim. I’ve known several people targeted and injured or narrowly escape injury. What about murder? Certainly, there’s no concerted official killing campaign. Those who have killed may have been isolted loners. But it’s still worth publicising the criminal connections the BNP do have- as a fascist front party which, all the evidence of history suggests, will become an open party of terror if it gains enough of a foothold. That’s why we must physically stop them now, as part of a mass campaign.

David Copeland who murdered two people in the Soho nail bombings was convicted of murder. An Asian councillor and family were firebombed out of their house during the BNP 2001 election campaign- no one was injured but that was only chance. It could easily have been murder. And Joe Owens, the BNP Merseyside Organiser whose car we trashed at the LePen demo, has certainly murdered- even has a conviction for manslaughter. Actually, the murder was not directly related to BNP activity but to his gangland crime empire but what sort of party has convicted killers as their organisers? . Tony LeComber BNP no. 2 has a conviction for possession of hand-made bombs and timig devices and one of their council candidates in Bradford boasted of his ‘dream’ to set up a machine gun post to murder Muslims after Friday prayers- perhaps, only potential murders and fantasies but hardly comforting. Are these mere details? In a sense, yes but they’re symptomatic details- evidence for diagnosing the fascist nature of the BNP. That is why we must physically smash the BNP. Fascism is a party of civil war for the bosses against Black people and the working class. Anyone who underestimates their reactionary nature of fascism in power or near power should look into the many examples from Nazi Germany to 70s Chile where the fascists were a powerful counterrevolutionary force to smash- and maim and murder- the workers’ organisations and pave the way for the brutal Pinochet dictatorship.

What should we do in Manchester Unis? Build a united antifascist left determined to 1) physically drive the fascists off the campuses and 2) to politically combat the racist lies of both the BNP and the racist state off which the BNP feeds. We should oppose state bans and police actions and use mass action to smash the BNP. We should have a massive leaflet and poster campaign, not to ask the authorities to ban them but to make their political life hell and prevent them from gaining any foothold on the campus. (And on the personal Politics is fucking personal when you’ve been lied to by Nazi scum so let’s mske their personal life hell as well).

We need to rebuild a serious antifascist left on the campuses and the communities. Make no mistake, where the BNP have grown racist attacks and, yes, murders have increased. The BNP are class warriors for the capitalist class. We must fight a relentless class war against them and capitalism itself, The BNP don’t have any solutions for the working class: a mass united black and white workers’ campaign does.

The whole point about No Platform is its self defence. I'm not arguing for isolated terror tactics- that's the preserve of the BNP. We should be arguing foir mass mobilisations which will seriously erode the BNP's capacity to launch physical attacks. And as for reporting to the police? What the same police exposed as having a hard core of racists, whose members have racially abused and assaulted Asian youth (again widely documented and I've witnessed several times myself). How many racist murders in the police and how many convictions?

Let's get ready for a mass campaign against these Nazi scum in Manchester and elsewhere.

 

[butchersapron]

You need to think again - which BNP members have been convicted of murder.

The BNP/Tyndal/Copelanl stuff is useless and you don't understand the chronology.

This is kiddy stuf.

 

[blamblam]

I have been to party meetings in the past of SWP/Respect this has shocked me. I doubt I’ll ever go again, I bet the BNP have my details now I am so angry and afraid. I would imagine the party is highly infiltrated if this is anything to go by, why else would they be willing to lose such high value spies?

Lol - see? This is how easy it is to spot a fascist "infiltrator"! It's laughable... shame your average Swiper is such a charicature...

 

[Zonk]

Always said the SWP attracts some right wankers.....

 

[layabout]

The SWP is a fascist party. Fascists maim and murder. That’s primarily what I meant by ‘they’ when I posted earlier but I had only just found out that the deception was true so might have been too brief in my arguments. But are the BNP violent fascists? Certainly, they maim. I’ve known several people targeted and injured or narrowly escape injury.

Not suprising, you seem really dodgy to me. I bet you phone up them up for a fight?

What about murder? Certainly, there’s no concerted official killing campaign.
Those who have killed may have been isolted loners.

So it's a criminal matter against those loners, rather than running some kind of hate campaign against thousands of people. By the way, I've calmed down now. Hopefully you're SWP chums will see you as a violent loner and ban you from the SWP.

But it’s still worth publicising the criminal connections the BNP do have- as a fascist front party which, all the evidence of history suggests, will become an open party of terror if it gains enough of a foothold. That’s why we must physically stop them now, as part of a mass campaign.

Yes....political violence. It done Northern Ireland wonders you know.

David Copeland who murdered two people in the Soho nail bombings was convicted of murder. An Asian councillor and family were firebombed out of their house during the BNP 2001 election campaign- no one was injured but that was only chance. It could easily have been murder. And Joe Owens, the BNP Merseyside Organiser whose car we trashed at the LePen demo, has certainly murdered- even has a conviction for manslaughter. Actually, the murder was not directly related to BNP activity but to his gangland crime empire but what sort of party has convicted killers as their organisers? .

Like you Copeland was a violent loner. He left the BNP because they was not up to his violent standards. Like wise I hope you leave your SWP chums and get yourself nicked for being a violent pratt.

btw, Joe Owens has not been convicted of murder. However, I must agree Nick Griffin could find better company, but hey, a lot of BNP members most probably do.

Tony LeComber BNP no. 2 has a conviction for possession of hand-made bombs and timig devices and one of their council candidates in Bradford boasted of his ‘dream’ to set up a machine gun post to murder Muslims after Friday prayers- perhaps, only potential murders and fantasies but hardly comforting.

I don't like Tony LeComer either, but I'm fucked if morons like you are going to go after innocent people down to LeComer being a prize pratt.

Are these mere details? In a sense, yes but they’re symptomatic details- evidence for diagnosing the fascist nature of the BNP.

That is why we must physically smash the BNP. Fascism is a party of civil war for the bosses against Black people and the working class. Anyone who underestimates their reactionary nature of fascism in power or near power should look into the many examples from Nazi Germany to 70s Chile where the fascists were a powerful counterrevolutionary force to smash- and maim and murder- the workers’ organisations and pave the way for the brutal Pinochet dictatorship.

Oh please. Do you seriously think the BNP is gonna get in? Well....one thing for sure is......THEY WILL....if they are made up to be some kind of forbidden fruit. If you want to sell something to someone....tell them they can't have it.

You're talking politics. By the way, if you think violence is the answer, why are you TALKING to us all about using violence. Shouldn't you be telling us, they we all derserve a kicking unless we do what you say?

What should we do in Manchester Unis? Build a united antifascist left determined to 1) physically drive the fascists off the campuses and 2) to politically combat the racist lies of both the BNP and the racist state off which the BNP feeds. We should oppose state bans and police actions and use mass action to smash the BNP. We should have a massive leaflet and poster campaign, not to ask the authorities to ban them but to make their political life hell and prevent them from gaining any foothold on the campus. (And on the personal Politics is fucking personal when you’ve been lied to by Nazi scum so let’s mske their personal life hell as well).

And you wonder why Redwatch exists?

You are a prize sectarian pratt. If everyone took up your attitude, this country would descend into a sectaran style civil war, similar to what Northern Ireland suffered before the peace agreement.

We need to rebuild a serious antifascist left on the campuses and the communities. Make no mistake, where the BNP have grown racist attacks and, yes, murders have increased. The BNP are class warriors for the capitalist class. We must fight a relentless class war against them and capitalism itself, The BNP don’t have any solutions for the working class: a mass united black and white workers’ campaign does.

Yes........thats right, cloud the issues even more......

The whole point about No Platform is its self defence. I'm not arguing for isolated terror tactics- that's the preserve of the BNP. We should be arguing foir mass mobilisations which will seriously erode the BNP's capacity to launch physical attacks. And as for reporting to the police? What the same police exposed as having a hard core of racists, whose members have racially abused and assaulted Asian youth (again widely documented and I've witnessed several times myself). How many racist murders in the police and how many convictions?

Funny, Redwatch "justify" their sad sorry existance with words not unlike yours.

Let's get ready for a mass campaign against these Nazi scum in Manchester and elsewhere.

Yes......I hope you get a cell next to Copelands.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Alright, then I'll withdraw the murder thing as a substantial point in the sense that Copeland was probably a nutter acting alone and Joe Owens' killing was related to gangland activity (but he is their organiser) but are you denying the BNP are fascists or violent? Because if you are, then that's serious problem.

What was all the shit exposed on the BBC for, then? And have people just imagined the brick and firebombing of a house?

And though the Copeland/ Tyndall stuff is in the past it's surely not irrelevant? The BNP aren't just a nasty racust outfit- though they're certainly that- but fascists. Surely, that's a basic starting point.

 

[butchersapron]

Alright, then I'll withdraw the murder thing as a substantial point in the sense that Copeland was probably a nutter acting alone and Joe Owens' killing was related to gangland activity (but he is their organiser) but are you denying the BNP are fascists or violent? Because if you are, then that's serious problem.

What was all the shit exposed on the BBC for, then? And have people just imagined the brick and firebombing of a house?

And though the Copeland/ Tyndall stuff is in the past it's surely not irrelevant? The BNP aren't just a nasty racust outfit- though they're certainly that- but fascists. Surely, that's a basic starting point.

What, of your original claim stands?

 

[layabout]

Alright, then I'll withdraw the murder thing as a substantial point in the sense that Copeland was probably a nutter acting alone and Joe Owens' killing was related to gangland activity (but he is their organiser) but are you denying the BNP are fascists or violent? Because if you are, then that's serious problem.

What was all the shit exposed on the BBC for, then? And have people just imagined the brick and firebombing of a house?

And though the Copeland/ Tyndall stuff is in the past it's surely not irrelevant? The BNP aren't just a nasty racust outfit- though they're certainly that- but fascists. Surely, that's a basic starting point.

I condemn all violence. If people take the law into their own hands they should be locked up. It is not your right or my right, to get any polical party and make a judgement on all it's activists and it's members AND take the law into our own hands. Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Pack it in.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Btw my last reply was to butchersapron, the layabout post crossed. But layabout completely misunderstands the points. It's not about ti for tat violence. It's about rebuilding a mass movement which will include physical self-defence not as some kind of euphemism for isolated attacks but to stop the criminal attacks of fascists.

 

[butchersapron]

Do you layabout? So what?

 

[layabout]

Do you layabout? So what?

The question was put to me on this thread. Nothing like making the point clear.

Some people have been VERY assuming about my beliefs.

 

[butchersapron]

The question was put to me on this thread. Nothing like making the point clear.

Some people have been VERY assuming about my beliefs.

Are you sure?

 

[flimsier]

We'll see.

I will be particularly interested to see what investigations are carried out by Respect, UAF and Stop the War into how exactly these people gained prominence in those organisations. Did the SWP just appoint them to various positions?

If you think they're going to announce them outside of their own membership, you clearly think they've learned nothing.

They'll sort their own ship out internally and ignore the embarrassment imo.

 

[layabout]

Btw my last reply was to butchersapron, the layabout post crossed. But layabout completely misunderstands the points. It's not about ti for tat violence. It's about rebuilding a mass movement which will include physical self-defence not as some kind of euphemism for isolated attacks but to stop the criminal attacks of fascists.

If I misunderstand your points, then you are going to have to be a lot clearer. I don't see how physically driving students off a campus, who hold views not in agreement, is going to be a receipe to stop political violence. If someone tried to physically stop you from having your right of free speach, I don't think you would take it without a fight. You have no chance of changing peoples minds with the threat of violence or anything else physical.

 

[layabout]

Are you sure?

LOL Yes!

 

[DaveCinzano]

<black humour>

anyway, it's probably all an elaborate 'searchlight' double cross sting...

</black humour>

 

[butchersapron]

I win

m

 

[layabout]

<black humour>

anyway, it's probably all an elaborate 'searchlight' double cross sting...

</black humour>

ROFL....For all you know, urbanrevolt could be a reporter from the BBC trying to expose violent swappies.....by erm inciting violence and seeing who is crazy enough to buy into it.