fascist infiltration of the left

[bolshiebhoy]

Brian this asshole layabout had this to say about this issue and you wonder why we might be reticent:"If most people in the SWP, believe that people in the BNP should be intimitated, hounded and boycotted for their beliefs, then fuck ya's. I hope the BNP spread the SWP membership details far and wide so they can be hounded, boycotted and shunned for their political beliefs."Pick the time and place pal.

 

[flimsier]

I said stuff was already happening. I also don't think there's any need for you, for example, to know about the results. I object to your stating as fact some theories you have as to what security was compromised. I object to your 'I'd be surprised'.

Then you said 'the wall of silence doesn't inspire confidence' suggesting you want it published or something, by now.

That's not exactly the same as 'fair enough' is it.

So stop looking for points to score.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Do you think that all of the people who put their details on lists these people had access to (whichever lists they may be) need to know?

As for wanting answers immediately, the "wall of silence" remark had nothing to do with impatience. It was in response to Cliffite's instructions to other SWP members to shut up and your claim that you had some knowledge but had been told to keep it to yourself.

Things like whether or not UAF and Respect will be investigating this are not things that can be kept quiet.

 

[flimsier]

I can't believe you have still carried this on.

I don't think everyone who went to Marxism needs to know.

Apart from that, I'm not sure - hence I suggested they (people in manc) speak to others who have better advice.

Now leave it; I'm not coming back to this discussion with you and you ain't listening. I'm most puzzled as to why you are desperate for more info to be published on an open site like this one.

And your edit continues to suggest people should publicly post, on open forums, read by anyone and referred to by fash, what they are doing about it.

Fucking hell

 

[Pilgrim]

Personally, I'm not suggesting that the SWP has to give detailed descriptions of whatever security they may put in place as a result of this minor disaster, but surely those whose details are on whatever membership lists these infiltrators had access to should be informed ASAP that they may be under threat.

This isn't only a matter for the SWP and it's front organisations, it's also a matter of grave concern to those other groups and individuals, such as the Green party for instance, who worked with UAF. I just checked the SWP website and there isn't a dickybird about this little farrago.

Considering security, I was vetted before my application to the Green party was accepted. If I remember correctly, this is party policy now. Surely the SWP and its front groups should consider installing similar procedures, should similar infiltrations be attempted again.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I think that the attempt to hide behind "security" is understandable but it isn't coherent. In fact it reeks of closing the barn doors when the horses are heading for the horizon.

It is perfectly legitimate for the SWP or UAF or Respect or any other body these people infiltrated to want to keep certain things about their response secret. Things like any new procedures they are bringing in to deal with such attempts.

It is not legitimate for them to want to hide such issues as whether or not there is going to be an investigation. Or how that investigation is to be carried out. Or what lists of home addresses these people had access to. Every left wing activist in Manchester has a legitimate interest in knowing if the BNP have their home address and how that situation came to pass. The same goes for people in other parts of the country who may be on other lists that these scumbags had access to. How the hell is anyone supposed to work with them or attend their events otherwise?

Now it may be that the SWP and it auxilliary groupings are not planning to hide such information away. As you point out 24 hours is not a reasonable time to expect a clear response. However the attitude displayed by the likes of Cliffite isn't exactly encouraging in that respect.

 

[Gumbert]

nigel, youv'e made your point..

now shut the fuck up...

 

[layabout]

Brian this asshole layabout had this to say about this issue and you wonder why we might be reticent:"If most people in the SWP, believe that people in the BNP should be intimitated, hounded and boycotted for their beliefs, then fuck ya's. I hope the BNP spread the SWP membership details far and wide so they can be hounded, boycotted and shunned for their political beliefs."Pick the time and place pal.

That's a very big IF.

Ever heard of Devils Advocate?

Have you actually bothered to read all of my posts on this thread?

hmmmm?

I believe EVERYONE including the likes of the BNP should not be hounded for their political beliefs. I don't believe in taking the law into my own hands.

Sorry, if I got your blood racing, but you really do want to stop and think about the consequences of a no platform policy. You damage the reputation of the SWP. Many would never vote for a party that believes in stopping free speech.

Read my posts.

If most members of the BNP were violent and condoned violence, there would be abosolute war out there. There isn't because they don't. If most of them, were into violence, then they would get what they deserve, but like it or not, they ain't.

You are insulting the intelligence of people, by trying to take away their democratic rights by phyiscal force.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Are you taking something for that attitude problem Gumbert? Or are you just feeling betrayed and looking for someone to take it out on?

 

[Sacred Spirit]

Two BNP members join SWP,
and the SWP members can't tell them apart,
they even speak the same 'language'. As members of the SWP
they have 'credentials', supplied by the SWP, how nice of them.
Presume they learned quickly the methods of the SWP and used them.
.
Gluckstein taught them well, the zionist's joined both Stalins party and Hitlers,
they were welcome equally in both.
.
People in other groups coudn't tell them from SWP members either.
Mayhap Trotsky was correct, Stalinism and Fascism ARE two sides of the same coin, made of the same metal.
.
ps. since I mentioned in a previous post the NF in the SWP, has there been any response from the SWP regarding it ?

Like anyone on the Manchester left I knew these two nazi scum infiltrators and they were utterly convincing in their role of activist party hacks, not particularly political of course but how many SWPers are? The SWP enabled their advancement through their encouragement of activity before any understanding, but they weren’t the only ones duped by them. I was taken in by them like everyone else.

And they knew you, and t'others.
---------------------------------------

If you were in a city under seige by fascist's and some org' in the city allowed representatives of the fascist's inside the city and showed them round.

Explained the strengths and weaknesses and introduced them to the other org's in the city, would you call for the fascist reps' to be banned from a university or would you call for the members of the org' that allowed them entry to be stood against a wall and shot as traitors ?
.
.
(Sarajevo)

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Because if you were, you could have saved your ire for when this fuckspud showed up.

 

[Sacred Spirit]

In fact it reeks of closing the barn doors when the horses are heading for the horizon.

It is not legitimate for them to want to hide such issues as whether or not there is going to be an investigation. Or how that investigation is to be carried out.

Or what lists of home addresses these people had access to. Every left wing activist in Manchester has a legitimate interest in knowing if the BNP have their home address and how that situation came to pass.

How the hell is anyone supposed to work with them or attend their events otherwise?

To clear out all the bnp and nf means the swp will lose some members.shall we have a poll on how many ?

ps sarajevo lives. they shot collaborators.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Because if you were, you could have saved your ire for when this fuckspud showed up.

lol!

it was inevitable wasn't it

 

[Sacred Spirit]

Last year the SWP opened the school gates for the BNP so now they both leaflet and have turned shools into political grounds, wasn't there enough ground already ?

Since the 80's when the BNP leafleted schools and were dealt with - no other group has done, so why the SWP ?

Commonly said over 80% of the popiulation were opposed to the invasion of Iraq, so why the need for school kids ?

So now the betrayal of the manchester 'left' !

At what point do people take it seriously ?

Has the SWP now developed a policy to remove the BNP from the schools ?

 

[smashthestate]

fuckin hell, this thread has grown in the past twelve hours

Every left wing activist in Manchester has a legitimate interest in knowing if the BNP have their home address and how that situation came to pass. The same goes for people in other parts of the country who may be on other lists that these scumbags had access to. How the hell is anyone supposed to work with them or attend their events otherwise?
.

I have to agree with Nigel here.

I have had no involvement with the SWP as an organisation (still vaguely in touvh with a few non-active menbers..) for the past 2+ years.

I have moved house and changed phone number numerous times since then, and that us the only reason I am not worried about Diane and Joe and the BNP having my personal details.

I'm practically conviced that my (very out of date) details were on whatever contact lists they were given for ring rounds because when I was in the SWP (I was young and foolish ) we were given lists with ppl's personal info: when they joined, when they stopped paying, address, occupation, trade union, branch, phone no etc etc... and this included people who had left over 2 years ago and people who had just singed petitions 2+ years ago

As I said to Solidarnosc about 6 pages back, anyone who thinks these infiltrators didnt copy these lists is deluding themselves.

IMHO, they will be of very little use to the fash since the majority of ppl on them will merely have signed a petition years ago and no longer be at the same address or even be remotely involved in anything even vaguely lefty.
Basically there is too much data there for them to make any sense of.

BUT, there may be certain ppl on these lists who the fash ARE interested in and I feat for them - not just in terms of their physical well-being, but also their emotional state - fearing what the fash may know about them.....

IMO it is not this huge amount of data that the BNP inevitably now possess that is the main worry. It's more the personal stuff that they know about people who got close to them - thats what would really freak me, your mates know all your weaknesses, how to get to you etc. etc.
It must be really awful right now for Solidarnosc and basicaly anyone who has been invovled with Manc / Salford SWP in the past nine months.

I am amazed that these two vile individuals actually have the front to return to uni in september. Yes, the SWP is not the most threatening of organisations, but on a purely personal level, I know that if I had been "friends" with one of these two and found out they were really fash I would have no hesitiation to kick their heads in (and, believe it or not, I am not a violent person generally).


<sorry if this post doesn't make sense / is full of typos / repetitive etc, but I have been in the pub for the past 12 hours, so go easy on me....)

 

[888]

Past caring's right, there's something dodgy about the photos. There's something wrong with her neck, and the way the shadows fall just isn't right...

 

[smashthestate]

888, i see what you mean.......

 

[danno_at_work]

soli

soli
box is full

 

[Streathamite]

Last year the SWP opened the school gates for the BNP so now they both leaflet and have turned shools into political grounds, wasn't there enough ground already ?

Since the 80's when the BNP leafleted schools and were dealt with - no other group has done, so why the SWP ?

Commonly said over 80% of the popiulation were opposed to the invasion of Iraq, so why the need for school kids ?

So now the betrayal of the manchester 'left' !

At what point do people take it seriously ?

Has the SWP now developed a policy to remove the BNP from the schools ?

look, shit-fer-brains, talk some sort of sense or just fuck off, please.

 

[past caring]

Jezza - almost everyone has this fuckwit on ignore.

Can you please refrain from quoting him - as it kind of defeats the object.

 

[Solidarnosc]

soli
box is full

Duly emptied.

 

[cockneyrebel]

In terms of what urbanrevolt was saying I think it’s worth expanding on.

While the BNP may have changed tactics to appear more respectable do people think this means they are no longer a fascist outfit? Various fascist outfits in history have made turns in terms of having a respectable/thug image. The Nazis did it. Sometimes the boot boys were let loose, sometimes they stressed they were a parliamentary party. As said they definitely didn’t gain power on the back of saying we’re gonna gas seven million dues and destroy the trade union movement.

One things for sure is that if the BNP ever got into a position of prominence their methods of violence would be unleashed. Their membership is riddled from thugs from the top down.

Just because Griffin is not at this very moment saying we need “well directed fists and boots” do people really think that means he’s changed his mind on the matter? Every under cover documentary there has been has uncovered their violent, racist, fascist, holocaust denying views. Or do they just save these views for the cameras?

The reason the BNP have to be no platformed is because of what they are. Their self professed aim is to remove every black and Asian person from the country, and that’s when they’re in a position of weakness!

There have been attacks on the Asian community around Manchester where the BNP are standing, and I don’t think it’s hard to put two and two together. And do people have any doubt that the BNP would smash up the workers movement and the left given half the chance. Even their organiser on an undercover documentary said we don’t want street battles “at the moment”.

I think the tactic of no platform has to be looked at tactically and should be used in mass action, like the Le Pen demo. But it’s something that needs to be defended to the core. It’s not about mindlessly bashing people as layabout seems to suggest but recognising that the fascists will use violence to smash the workers movement and black and Asian communities. Now leaving aside Diane’s ridiculous assertion that this is not personal, it also means that the left has to defend itself and it has to start when the BNP are small. That’s why Diane and Joe and to face a mass campaign to try and drive them off campus. They represent an organisation that wants to drive every black and Asian person out of the country and smash the worker’s movement given half the chance. Why wait until they can do it to stop them and not stop them now? Would people on here really give a shit if the Nazis had been smashed by physcial means when they were small? Would anyone have given a shit about their rights to free speech if you could have stopped the carrying out the holocaust and smashing the German workers movement? And do people have any doubt that people in the higher echelons wouldn’t smash democracy and anyone in their path given the opportunity?

Also being thinking about Diane/Joe being duped or not know what the BNP is really about. Do people seriously think that people who have gone undercover in the SWP for a whole year aren’t hardcore activists? Of course they are……

Also can I stress my sympathy for the people in the SWP and others over what has happened. I do hope the SWP learns some lessons from this though.

PS What do butchers and Nigel think should be done in terms of Joe and Diane?

PPS I wonder what Diane thinks of the totally sexist views of the BNP?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Good post cr!

 

[fanciful]

they are a pair of hapless individuals but no more forgiveable for all that. i knew them pretty well. obviously they were hard core if stupid and naieve, just considering the manner of the announcement, it's bizarre photos and commentary tells you plenty about them and the fact that they think they can carry on living their lives as if it was a minor disagreement over which football team you support. that cannot happen. and i'm absolutely confident will not.
as for an enquiry - well its perfectly obvious why it happened - the swp's open door policy - its promotion of mindless activism - their usefulness as voting fodder for the leadership - the key test of a revolutionary - do you understand and can you apply the ideas of your organisation in the class struggle was never asked of them - cause all they had to do was what they were told by the organiser - the fact that this was valued above all else by the leadership of the swp meant it was a piece of piss to do and will happen again - if the culture and political degeneration of the swp continues - which it will.
a salutory lesson for the anti-fa nonetheless and in a way a good thing insofar as it makes us wake up and take the enemy seriously.
but don't get me wrong they're scum and we're going to have to do all the things everyone's suggested to sort this problem out.

 

[blamblam]

Past caring's right, there's something dodgy about the photos. There's something wrong with her neck, and the way the shadows fall just isn't right...

lol - you photoshopped that right? Put griffin's head on her body?

Surely she can't be that ugly?

 

[flypanam]

Surely she can't be that ugly?

with pure bred inbreading any monstrosity can appear.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I think these two infiltrators would be ideal recruiting material for the Intelligence services, so that they can do similar work in the BNP They could probably be attracted by appealing to their distorted sense of so called 'patriotism'.

MI5 could usefully have some more agents in the BNP, agents who have established their credentials within the unsuspecting BNP by their work in the SWP.

Back to the main topic. If it transpires that the BNP does use the information about names and addresses to carry out acts of violence, on individuals then I hope there is enough evidence to point the finger at the infiltrators so that they can be charged as accessories.

Hocus Eye

 

[Sayjann]

I think these two infiltrators would be ideal recruiting material for the Intelligence services, so that they can do similar work in the BNP They could probably be attracted by appealing to their distorted sense of so called 'patriotism'.

MI5 could usefully have some more agents in the BNP, agents who have established their credentials within the unsuspecting BNP by their work in the SWP.

Back to the main topic. If it transpires that the BNP does use the information about names and addresses to carry out acts of violence, on individuals then I hope there is enough evidence to point the finger at the infiltrators so that they can be charged as accessories.

Hocus Eye

I think the BNP will be very very wary of those two now. There's a real chance that they could be double agents so to speak.

Diane was held in high regard for her work with RESPECT, somethings just dont ring true. Incidentally she was involved in the Anti Nazi League as it then was well before she started courting Colett......

Maybe he will be left with egg on his face, eh

Sayjann

 

[butchersapron]

David Copeland held joint membership of the BNP and the NSM. He killed a few only five years ago I believe.

No he didn't. If you knew anything about right-wing politics you'd know why as well.

 

[Pickman's model]

perhaps the manc swp could profitably look again at the events of the evening the uaf were launched in manchester.