fascist infiltration of the left
- Thread starter zakawale
- Start date
hiya, I'm new to this website but i think i probably know a number of you. i've been reading all this with great interest as i knew the moles, but not very well. i am a bit concerned about the idea of a big campaign to ostracise these two from the campus, though. If you consider
1. the fact that these people don't seem to have actually achieved anything in their year (!!!) as moles, save for having presumably gotten a huge list of contact details, which is admittedly quite serious
2. the public nature of their coming out, complete with names and photographs
3. the fact that they are probably going to continue their loves at uni etc.
don't you think one should seriously ponder what the bnp were doing all this for? on the face of it, obviously, it simply looks like a primitive, pie-in-your-face act, but considering the fact that the bnp thrive on the idea of themselves as victims (of ethnic invasion, of "left-wing" media, govt. etc.) don't you think they may have been wanting to provoke the sort of ostracising campaign many of you speak of? an earlier entry pointed out the dangers of this for us: wentworth became a celebrity overnight when all that flared up. i honestly believe it would be better to lay off that idea. their lives will be hell at uni in a personal way anyway, without any concerted campaign. i'm worried that this is what they want, and, frankly, they're not worth it.
1. the fact that these people don't seem to have actually achieved anything in their year (!!!) as moles, save for having presumably gotten a huge list of contact details, which is admittedly quite serious
2. the public nature of their coming out, complete with names and photographs
3. the fact that they are probably going to continue their loves at uni etc.
don't you think one should seriously ponder what the bnp were doing all this for? on the face of it, obviously, it simply looks like a primitive, pie-in-your-face act, but considering the fact that the bnp thrive on the idea of themselves as victims (of ethnic invasion, of "left-wing" media, govt. etc.) don't you think they may have been wanting to provoke the sort of ostracising campaign many of you speak of? an earlier entry pointed out the dangers of this for us: wentworth became a celebrity overnight when all that flared up. i honestly believe it would be better to lay off that idea. their lives will be hell at uni in a personal way anyway, without any concerted campaign. i'm worried that this is what they want, and, frankly, they're not worth it.
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Bedonteau said:Also can U75's very own Sid the sexists keep their crap out of this thread. I don't give a monkeys whether Diane is a "big woman", but it certainly isn't something self-identified lefties should be sniggering about like little school kids.
can't disagree with that. or is it that size/physical appearance etc doesn't count until people turn to the dark side?
grow up, chaps.
past caring
The Cathars were right
Can I suggest that, until regulars on here vouch for either "jemima" or "Bedonteau" that posters are a little....er, shall we say "circumspect" when dealing with these two.
First posts - and this is where they come to?.......hmmm
First posts - and this is where they come to?.......hmmm
past caring said:
Typical newbie-phobia characteristic of internet snobs.
If you must know I've been following U75 for a long time and have felt moved enough to begin posting on a thread that has seen some of the outrageous sexism I've ever come across on a lefty discussion forum.
Should I have kept my peace until I've accumulated a couple of thousand posts to my name?
rebel warrior
Soca Warrior
PC - There is a link to U75 on indymedia about this so an influx of new members is to be expected.
Saying that, I think this issue is one for comrades in manchester to discuss about what sort of response on campus for example is needed as they know the pair concerned, so I am not going to say more than simply point out that it is very difficult to get BNP members expelled from University. At Leeds Uni Collett and Beverley, known BNP members, could bring other BNP members onto campus and turn over an ANL stall in front of the Union and intimidate members on it (with about 100 students watching) - and the University's response? A 25 quid fine - the same as if a drunken first year student set off a fire extinguisher.
Basically the University authorities are going to do fuck all if they can help it. That doesn't mean students should not take action against the BNP, to ensure they know they have no place on campus. Wherever BNP members are active, racist abuse, grafitti and even attacks etc will follow. A large anti-racist movement at Manchester Universities will be needed now more than ever.
Saying that, I think this issue is one for comrades in manchester to discuss about what sort of response on campus for example is needed as they know the pair concerned, so I am not going to say more than simply point out that it is very difficult to get BNP members expelled from University. At Leeds Uni Collett and Beverley, known BNP members, could bring other BNP members onto campus and turn over an ANL stall in front of the Union and intimidate members on it (with about 100 students watching) - and the University's response? A 25 quid fine - the same as if a drunken first year student set off a fire extinguisher.
Basically the University authorities are going to do fuck all if they can help it. That doesn't mean students should not take action against the BNP, to ensure they know they have no place on campus. Wherever BNP members are active, racist abuse, grafitti and even attacks etc will follow. A large anti-racist movement at Manchester Universities will be needed now more than ever.
"outrageous sexism"
bloody hell, you must be a laugh a minute if a few people calling an overweight ugly girl an overweight ugly girl get you this upset. And how is that sexist? If you look at the abuse currently being given to OldhamGeezer or whatever the tit (ooh, should have said arse- that is a non-sexualised bit of language) is called, you'll see the ire is quite evenly spread
bloody hell, you must be a laugh a minute if a few people calling an overweight ugly girl an overweight ugly girl get you this upset. And how is that sexist? If you look at the abuse currently being given to OldhamGeezer or whatever the tit (ooh, should have said arse- that is a non-sexualised bit of language) is called, you'll see the ire is quite evenly spread
past caring
The Cathars were right
Bedonteau said:
Don't be a cock. There's nothing snobbish or newbie-phobic (is that another made up "phobia" by the way? you know, like "islamaphobia"....) about my post.
These boards are regularly trolled by fash, as you'd know if you've been following U75 "for a long time".
And this thread, itself, demonstrates;
a) the BNP "infiltrating" the left
b) one of said infiltrators registering and posting on the same thread
Now, most fash that come here give themselves away within a few posts - some last a little longer. But they aren't all idiots. Sooner or later we are bound to get one able to keep their cover.
I notice from another thread that you say you are a member of the Socialist Alliance Democratic Platform. Fine. If that's the case you should understand why some of us might want to exercise caution. You should also know that there's a well known poster here who is also a member. Your group is far from huge. I'm sure he'll vouch for you.
kropotkin said:
If she was a "stunna", would you all be publically pondering her tastiness? I doubt it. Next you'll be saying it's okay to take the piss out of Blunkett because he's blind.
This sexist crap is not necessary and quite frankly I'd expect such bollocks from Ukip and the fash. So please, leave it out.
past caring
The Cathars were right
I object to your use of the word "bollocks" - it's sexist.
What's the matter anyway - is she your girlfriend or something?
What's the matter anyway - is she your girlfriend or something?
This sort of action by the fascists shouldn't be underestimated. It's not just a question of some details of people getting spread amongst the BNP. It's rather a question of the fash going on the offensive by attacking their enemy. This could easily be followed by more open physical violence.
Just to give some ideas on how to react, I'd like to refer to a campaign we did with the party I'm a member of (Belgian sister organisation of the Socialist Party). In 1996 my branch was infiltrated for 1,5 months by a fascist. This guy couldn't do much damage, because we wouldn't let him do much without the necessary political discussions which were quite hard with this guy - he simply didn't get our points fully, we always felt we hadn't been able to fully convince him. So in a way avoiding infiltration is linked to political education and discussions.
But this infiltration came at a moment the fascists were on the offensive, moving to physical violence as well, which wasn't a coincidence of course. This was strenghtened by the fact that the infiltrator - who quickly felt his time had come to leave - had used some rightwing publications type Redwatch to publish details of our leading members in that town.
We perfectly knew what information he had, so we discussed security measures on the issue of avoiding attacks against individual comrades. But we also discussed on how to get offensive about it as well. We produced a poster with this guy's picture on and a slogan saying : "Wanted: Nazi, stupid but dangerous". This poster appeared in the neighboorhood where this nazi lived. We also went campaigning in the neighboorhood and used the example of the infiltration, as this is not a method generally accepted by people. Also not by people who would vote for them as they see no other alternative in elections. The fascists get offensive because they feel strenghtened by the electoral support, but that's not the same as support for physical violence or infiltration methods. Anyway, we finally did a big demo against fascist violence and this demo got more and more support while building it, which led to the fact that the infiltrator got completely isolated and scared. He ended up doing a bomb attack on his own to accuse us. He had to admit this after a while and was in prison for quite some time. Since leaving prison he's not into politics anymore...
The left should react strongly on this issue in Manchester, but in a political way: campaign in their neighboorhood. Get their methods known and build for a big protest against their methods. Silence and saying it's an internal affair is the worst possible reaction. That would only strenghten them. The left has to become offensive on this.
Just to give some ideas on how to react, I'd like to refer to a campaign we did with the party I'm a member of (Belgian sister organisation of the Socialist Party). In 1996 my branch was infiltrated for 1,5 months by a fascist. This guy couldn't do much damage, because we wouldn't let him do much without the necessary political discussions which were quite hard with this guy - he simply didn't get our points fully, we always felt we hadn't been able to fully convince him. So in a way avoiding infiltration is linked to political education and discussions.
But this infiltration came at a moment the fascists were on the offensive, moving to physical violence as well, which wasn't a coincidence of course. This was strenghtened by the fact that the infiltrator - who quickly felt his time had come to leave - had used some rightwing publications type Redwatch to publish details of our leading members in that town.
We perfectly knew what information he had, so we discussed security measures on the issue of avoiding attacks against individual comrades. But we also discussed on how to get offensive about it as well. We produced a poster with this guy's picture on and a slogan saying : "Wanted: Nazi, stupid but dangerous". This poster appeared in the neighboorhood where this nazi lived. We also went campaigning in the neighboorhood and used the example of the infiltration, as this is not a method generally accepted by people. Also not by people who would vote for them as they see no other alternative in elections. The fascists get offensive because they feel strenghtened by the electoral support, but that's not the same as support for physical violence or infiltration methods. Anyway, we finally did a big demo against fascist violence and this demo got more and more support while building it, which led to the fact that the infiltrator got completely isolated and scared. He ended up doing a bomb attack on his own to accuse us. He had to admit this after a while and was in prison for quite some time. Since leaving prison he's not into politics anymore...
The left should react strongly on this issue in Manchester, but in a political way: campaign in their neighboorhood. Get their methods known and build for a big protest against their methods. Silence and saying it's an internal affair is the worst possible reaction. That would only strenghten them. The left has to become offensive on this.
past caring said:
I know this. But treating all newbies as if they've got the plague isn't really on, or is 'innocent until proven guilty' a bourgeois concept unworthy of socialists?
>Now, most fash that come here give themselves away within a few posts - >some last a little longer. But they aren't all idiots. Sooner or later we >are bound to get one able to keep their cover.
>I notice from another thread that you say you are a member of the Socialist >Alliance Democratic Platform. Fine. If that's the case you should understand >why some of us might want to exercise caution.
Yes, watch out for those evil wreckers from the mighty SADP! Today the 'fascists infiltrate the SWP' thread.Tomorrow - the world!
>You should also know that >there's a well known poster here who is also a >member. Your group is far >from huge. I'm sure he'll vouch for you.[/QUOTE]
76 members may not sound alot, but not everyone lives in each other pockets. So the other SADP regular might not know me for monkeys - unless they happen to be the membership secretary, or one of the handful of SADP'ers I regularly correspond with.
Edit: I'll follow Jemima and get some "references". Anyone would think I'm applying for a spooks job at MFI or something.
past caring
The Cathars were right
The problem is, Geert, the BNP is a regular target for infiltration by Searchlight - an organisation supported by the SWP. In fact, they might be said to have "thrown the first stone" - so it would be no use the SWP complaining about the morals or underhand tactics of the fascists in this instance.
More to the point, the SWP and the rest of the left are irrelevant to the majority of working class people. I couldn't imagine them giving a fuck. They might laugh though.
@ Bedonteau - I only suggested "circumspection". It's only a gentle reminder of the way that people engaged in anti-fascist work ought to behave anyway when posting on a board viewable to all and sundry.
More to the point, the SWP and the rest of the left are irrelevant to the majority of working class people. I couldn't imagine them giving a fuck. They might laugh though.
@ Bedonteau - I only suggested "circumspection". It's only a gentle reminder of the way that people engaged in anti-fascist work ought to behave anyway when posting on a board viewable to all and sundry.
that's dead right. it's not up to the manchester swss to decide what happens, these two nazis were promoted by the swp, introduced to leading positions in MAR, Respect and the student union by the swp and the swp have to accept a large element of responsibility for as a result. The entire left have been endandgered by this infiltration. The idea that the swp the very organisation who so evidently failed to fulfil the most minimal security conditions is able to satisfactorily resolve this question is a joke.
and i don't think its acceptable either if they just blame it on some individual. this was clearly a case of systemtic failure related to the entire culture of the organisation. in short its promotion of obediance as a virtue above all others.
otherwise how do you explain how two nazis were promoted over more experienced and capable comrades into such leading positions so quickly?
no. there will be a mass campaign against this pair irrespective of what the swp decide. hopefully the swp will recognise their failings, take some responsibility and participate in it. but given they haven't been able to even issue a statement a whole day after the outing and after I know they have visited the two and had it personally confirmed by them i don't think we can afford to hold our breath.
can't the swp do anything right?
and i don't think its acceptable either if they just blame it on some individual. this was clearly a case of systemtic failure related to the entire culture of the organisation. in short its promotion of obediance as a virtue above all others.
otherwise how do you explain how two nazis were promoted over more experienced and capable comrades into such leading positions so quickly?
no. there will be a mass campaign against this pair irrespective of what the swp decide. hopefully the swp will recognise their failings, take some responsibility and participate in it. but given they haven't been able to even issue a statement a whole day after the outing and after I know they have visited the two and had it personally confirmed by them i don't think we can afford to hold our breath.
can't the swp do anything right?
past caring
The Cathars were right
fanciful said:
Do you "do" anything but Trot-speak? You need to calm down mate - there won't be a "mass" campaign even if the SWP throw their full weight behind it.
I fucking despair sometimes, I really do.
fanciful said:
I happen to know that to be bollocks, so why did you make it up?
This is why I hate the sniping on here.
Also pc: searchlight being 'supported by' the SWP needs clarifying - as while they are not as critical of them as they should be, they hardly enjoy what could be described as even a fraternal relationship. Just to give the correct impression. I thought they just weren't critical enough but have absolutely nothing to do with them (except when warned that their events might be attacked).
past caring
The Cathars were right
flimsier said:
They happily quote Searchlight verbatim when it comes to offering "evidence" of the BNP being violent thugs. There is also the fact that both organisations' "strategies" are based on "exposing" them as such.
past caring said:
That's fine. I'm happy to accept that (though there's an argument to be had on 'exposing' but I'm sure I've done that with you) - I just thought that as you were explaining to someone who may not have known much, they may have taken 'support' to mean in the same sense that the SWP 'support' the ANL or whatever.
past caring
The Cathars were right
flimsier said:
fanciful is clearly a WP member. If that constitutes "not knowing much" in your book, I suggest that's a discussion best left between the two of you.
How many members do the SWP have in Manchester, How large is the 'left', the anti war movement, the anti fascist movement, in comparison to the size of the swp ?
It's what needs to be considered, how great the damage, a "vanguard party", not a political joke anymore is it.
Trotsky developed the Political view that Stalin-ism and Fascism were 2 sides of the same thing, made of the same metal, but don't ask the swp members, they don't want you to know, otherwise you may ask, how did 2 members of the BNP manage to join them ? sometimes the metal coincides in the same party.
You may also ask how many more ? you may ask NF also ?
An organisation of 40-50 years standing that foisted the Anti Nazi league as a way of opposing fascism, the 'Unity against fascism' will be the next to fall flat, who in their right mind can give it any credence anymore ?
How many year of lies regarding the 'teaching of anti fascism' did it take to finally put the ANL to sleep ? as a school of anti fascism all the pupils should sue for their money back for the courses. The teacher, the lectures, the professors of the swp, if they can 'fool' them, can they also fool the other socialist groups and the anarchists ? if so how ? by what means ?
How much longer till 'activists' realise that the SWP is NOT a Trotskyist party But a Stalinist one ? How many more 'anarchist's' will be spouting propaganda for the stalinists of the swp in Opposition to the Real socialists ? how is it that other 'socialist' groups accept the swp as 'socialist' rather than as National socialists' which in real terms are conservatives in practical politics. The world appears to be full of ' believer', interesting how many follow the swp into the religious field.
The 'front' org's, often initiated by the swp, then when sufficient forces have been 'gathered' collapsed and disbanded with large numbers of disillusioned people left behind, is this the action of 'revolutionaries' ? definitely not even the action of lefty liberals. They're already planning for the G8 conference, to collapse opposition.
The 'diaspora'/dispersal of the anti war movement, the application of small shopkeeper economics, turnover the largest amount and reap a small profit on each item, the turn over of students, whom once used can they be used again ?
An insulting attitude, are the students not fit to be socialists, were they tried and found wanting ? is that why the policy of use and abuse.
The anti war movement is said to be non political and religious aligned, so why the constant dominance of the swp in the coalition groups (portrayal of one party state mentality) and now 'respect' ? another 'front' to be abused (seem that there is still uncertainty regarding the SA, is it defunct totally or is it subservient to the respect coalition, do they still have a need for it, are the members of the SA aware that the swp sees them as a subsiduary ? ). Still what we do know is that it has limited life, it will run out just when people have a need for positive change, so as to enforce the conservative.
Not ONE member of the swp in Manchester could tell the difference between a bnp and swp member, that we know, so the lesson we all learn is that the swp is not a socialist party.
Large numbers of people have commented on the similarities in development in both Russia under Stalin and Germany under Hitler (both were fascist [Stalin being the left wing fascist) , they were both reconstructed through the use of state capitalist methods as a way of rebuilding capitalist states, NOT the policy of socialists but state capitalism (nationalisation) is the policy of the swp.
The most constructive way of dealing with it in Manchester Uni, is to isolate the swp, call for it's disbanding, only way is to close the door through which they came.
It's what needs to be considered, how great the damage, a "vanguard party", not a political joke anymore is it.
Trotsky developed the Political view that Stalin-ism and Fascism were 2 sides of the same thing, made of the same metal, but don't ask the swp members, they don't want you to know, otherwise you may ask, how did 2 members of the BNP manage to join them ? sometimes the metal coincides in the same party.
You may also ask how many more ? you may ask NF also ?
An organisation of 40-50 years standing that foisted the Anti Nazi league as a way of opposing fascism, the 'Unity against fascism' will be the next to fall flat, who in their right mind can give it any credence anymore ?
How many year of lies regarding the 'teaching of anti fascism' did it take to finally put the ANL to sleep ? as a school of anti fascism all the pupils should sue for their money back for the courses. The teacher, the lectures, the professors of the swp, if they can 'fool' them, can they also fool the other socialist groups and the anarchists ? if so how ? by what means ?
How much longer till 'activists' realise that the SWP is NOT a Trotskyist party But a Stalinist one ? How many more 'anarchist's' will be spouting propaganda for the stalinists of the swp in Opposition to the Real socialists ? how is it that other 'socialist' groups accept the swp as 'socialist' rather than as National socialists' which in real terms are conservatives in practical politics. The world appears to be full of ' believer', interesting how many follow the swp into the religious field.
The 'front' org's, often initiated by the swp, then when sufficient forces have been 'gathered' collapsed and disbanded with large numbers of disillusioned people left behind, is this the action of 'revolutionaries' ? definitely not even the action of lefty liberals. They're already planning for the G8 conference, to collapse opposition.
The 'diaspora'/dispersal of the anti war movement, the application of small shopkeeper economics, turnover the largest amount and reap a small profit on each item, the turn over of students, whom once used can they be used again ?
An insulting attitude, are the students not fit to be socialists, were they tried and found wanting ? is that why the policy of use and abuse.
The anti war movement is said to be non political and religious aligned, so why the constant dominance of the swp in the coalition groups (portrayal of one party state mentality) and now 'respect' ? another 'front' to be abused (seem that there is still uncertainty regarding the SA, is it defunct totally or is it subservient to the respect coalition, do they still have a need for it, are the members of the SA aware that the swp sees them as a subsiduary ? ). Still what we do know is that it has limited life, it will run out just when people have a need for positive change, so as to enforce the conservative.
Not ONE member of the swp in Manchester could tell the difference between a bnp and swp member, that we know, so the lesson we all learn is that the swp is not a socialist party.
Large numbers of people have commented on the similarities in development in both Russia under Stalin and Germany under Hitler (both were fascist [Stalin being the left wing fascist) , they were both reconstructed through the use of state capitalist methods as a way of rebuilding capitalist states, NOT the policy of socialists but state capitalism (nationalisation) is the policy of the swp.
The most constructive way of dealing with it in Manchester Uni, is to isolate the swp, call for it's disbanding, only way is to close the door through which they came.
Fimsier:"Also pc: searchlight being 'supported by' the SWP needs clarifying - as while they are not as critical of them as they should be, they hardly enjoy what could be described as even a fraternal relationship. Just to give the correct impression. I thought they just weren't critical enough but have absolutely nothing to do with them (except when warned that their events might be attacked)."
I'm not sure what you mean here.
The searchlight/swp relationship is a strange one. This is hardly surprising as searchlight is pro-israel and the swp is pro-palestine.
Howevever, the SWP take searchlight seriously as an 'anti-fascist' organsation, but searchlight treat the swp as useful idiots and are always happy to 'help' the latter out by looking at their membership lists. Funny they never noticed Joe and Diane...
By the way, Gerry Gable was doing exactly the same stuff in the early 1960s.
I interviewed a guy, let's call him bob who was an anti-fascist in about 1962 and was involved with Gable in a group at the time. The guy I knew was in the CP as was Gable, but when they did a raid on the fash and picked up thousands of documents and left them in a lock up, the next day bob went back to pick the stuff up to meet gable and it had gone. Only him and gable had the keys. Gable never answered his phone calls
What the BNP and Gable have in common is that they are both nationalists; BNP are British nationalists and Gable is an Israeli nationalist.
Leave Searchlight well alone.
I'm not sure what you mean here.
The searchlight/swp relationship is a strange one. This is hardly surprising as searchlight is pro-israel and the swp is pro-palestine.
Howevever, the SWP take searchlight seriously as an 'anti-fascist' organsation, but searchlight treat the swp as useful idiots and are always happy to 'help' the latter out by looking at their membership lists. Funny they never noticed Joe and Diane...
By the way, Gerry Gable was doing exactly the same stuff in the early 1960s.
I interviewed a guy, let's call him bob who was an anti-fascist in about 1962 and was involved with Gable in a group at the time. The guy I knew was in the CP as was Gable, but when they did a raid on the fash and picked up thousands of documents and left them in a lock up, the next day bob went back to pick the stuff up to meet gable and it had gone. Only him and gable had the keys. Gable never answered his phone calls
What the BNP and Gable have in common is that they are both nationalists; BNP are British nationalists and Gable is an Israeli nationalist.
Leave Searchlight well alone.
(RW. It's a joke that lives in it's own dream world.)rebel warrior said:
So a hundred students stand by and watch, so the swp have built up an anti fascist force in the uni ? ANL and Unity combined+the swp.
"" A large anti-racist movement at Manchester Universities will be needed now more than ever. "" So at least we know which party will NOT be building it.
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