fascist infiltration of the left

[flimsier]

Fimsier:"Also pc: searchlight being 'supported by' the SWP needs clarifying - as while they are not as critical of them as they should be, they hardly enjoy what could be described as even a fraternal relationship. Just to give the correct impression. I thought they just weren't critical enough but have absolutely nothing to do with them (except when warned that their events might be attacked)."

I'm not sure what you mean here.
The searchlight/swp relationship is a strange one. This is hardly surprising as searchlight is pro-israel and the swp is pro-palestine.
Howevever, the SWP take searchlight seriously as an 'anti-fascist' organsation, but searchlight treat the swp as useful idiots and are always happy to 'help' the latter out by looking at their membership lists. Funny they never noticed Joe and Diane...
By the way, Gerry Gable was doing exactly the same stuff in the early 1960s.

I interviewed a guy, let's call him bob who was an anti-fascist in about 1962 and was involved with Gable in a group at the time. The guy I knew was in the CP as was Gable, but when they did a raid on the fash and picked up thousands of documents and left them in a lock up, the next day bob went back to pick the stuff up to meet gable and it had gone. Only him and gable had the keys. Gable never answered his phone calls
What the BNP and Gable have in common is that they are both nationalists; BNP are British nationalists and Gable is an Israeli nationalist.
Leave Searchlight well alone.

I agree with the stuff about searchlight. I was just suggesting that saying that the swp 'support' searchlight isn't actually accurate. I wasn't saying I was about to do anything but leave them well alone.

 

[flimsier]

Fanciful - pm me if you like - how do you know 'they' visited the two?

Given credentials (there's a few SWP members who must know you I presume - a word will do) and an assurance it stays between us, I'll pm you why I know 'they' didn't.

Otherwise I will continue to describe you as a complete and utter liar. Because I know you made it up - it's not about 'not believing' you.

 

[joeowens]

wankers

Thanks very much Joe and Diane for your excellent work.You will be hearing more of their exploits soon.

 

[rednblack]

Fanciful - pm me if you like - how do you know 'they' visited the two?

Given credentials (there's a few SWP members who must know you I presume - a word will do) and an assurance it stays between us, I'll pm you why I know 'they' didn't.

Otherwise I will continue to describe you as a complete and utter liar. Because I know you made it up - it's not about 'not believing' you.

tbh flim, i wouldnt trust manc swp as far as i can throw them especially after this - i would operate on the assumption they are lying to you.

joeowens - uh oh, better go and check i didnt leave anything on display in my car...

 

[layabout]

In terms of what urbanrevolt was saying I think it’s worth expanding on.

While the BNP may have changed tactics to appear more respectable do people think this means they are no longer a fascist outfit? Various fascist outfits in history have made turns in terms of having a respectable/thug image. The Nazis did it. Sometimes the boot boys were let loose, sometimes they stressed they were a parliamentary party. As said they definitely didn’t gain power on the back of saying we’re gonna gas seven million dues and destroy the trade union movement.

It would be silly to compare the BNP to 1930s Nazis of Germany. Sorry but it just is. While some of them are out and out Nazis, there is a big battle going on between various factions, from moderate to extreme.

One things for sure is that if the BNP ever got into a position of prominence their methods of violence would be unleashed. Their membership is riddled from thugs from the top down.

Yes there is violent people within the BNP, but it's really hard to persuade them to kick out such people, if there are many people out there who believe in using physical violence against them.

Just because Griffin is not at this very moment saying we need “well directed fists and boots” do people really think that means he’s changed his mind on the matter?

Dunno what the man thinks. He's got a lot on his mind at the moment. He's walking on a tight rope. He's trying to reform the party and one easy way of doing it, is to tell them that the party is being forced into such a position.

Every under cover documentary there has been has uncovered their violent, racist, fascist, holocaust denying views. Or do they just save these views for the cameras?

It would be foolish to think that the majority of the BNP membership thinks the same way. Also a reporter would be looking for extreme views. Already someone on this thread commenting about BNP infiltration of the SWP has said "Yeah I bet they got some Swappies in a pub having a laugh"

The reason the BNP have to be no platformed is because of what they are. Their self professed aim is to remove every black and Asian person from the country, and that’s when they’re in a position of weakness!

If you really believe, that the BNP could actually deport every black or asian person unlikely event of getting into power, then you need to sit down and have a good think. Griffin has even admitted himself, that blacks and asians being deported by force, ain't gonna happen. There are even BNP members that would no let that happen. It's an impossibility. There is a BIG difference, in going to bed and dreaming about a Britain without ethnic minorities and activally campaigning and kicking them out - it won't happen, no matter who gets into power.

There have been attacks on the Asian community around Manchester where the BNP are standing,

I suggest the police roll their sleeves up and get people in court for racist attacks.

and I don’t think it’s hard to put two and two together.

And get 3?

And do people have any doubt that the BNP would smash up the workers movement

You mean the unions? That's a valid political objective as disgusting as you find it.

and the left given half the chance.

How would they smash the left?

One of the main reasons why I joined the BNP (I'm an ex member by the way) is one of the same reasons why I tried drugs. I was told I can't have it!!!

If the BNP got into power tomorrow and they outlawed the SWP, I would be the next person to join the SWP.

Even their organiser on an undercover documentary said we don’t want street battles “at the moment”.

Chill, he's an organiser. He can't autocratically decide BNP policy, nor does he know the BNPs long term policy. He's making the same mistake as you are. He's believing, that a BNP that's much bigger than the size it is now, can actually achieve it's objectives by force. It never can, because the party can't attract that many more extremists. Imagine your worst fears came true and the BNP attracted 5000 members year on year, for the next 5 years. Do you really think all those new members would hold the same extremist views that you cite? If the BNP changed it's policies or tactics back to a more extreme one, they would lose most of those members.

I think the tactic of no platform has to be looked at tactically and should be used in mass action, like the Le Pen demo.

It's been discussed many times before. All it would do is get people more entrenched and politics suddenly becomes dangerous for everyone.

But it’s something that needs to be defended to the core. It’s not about mindlessly bashing people as layabout seems to suggest but recognising that the fascists will use violence to smash the workers movement and black and Asian communities.

If it's not about bashing people or using physical force then what are you suggesting?

Now leaving aside Diane’s ridiculous assertion that this is not personal, it also means that the left has to defend itself and it has to start when the BNP are small. That’s why Diane and Joe and to face a mass campaign to try and drive them off campus.

If that is done, then they will look the victims. It's also a receipe for violence. Like it or not, they have the right to attend that university. You have to win the moral argument not make peoples lives hell. Before you ask me about victims of racists having their lives made hell, you have to understand, that the number of people in the BNP who support racist violence isn't actually that large.

They represent an organisation that wants to drive every black and Asian person out of the country and smash the worker’s movement given half the chance.

Again. I disagree with that notion. What people want and what they can realistically get, even in power are two completly different things.

Why wait until they can do it to stop them and not stop them now? Would people on here really give a shit if the Nazis had been smashed by physcial means when they were small?

They can't be broken by physical means. They won't go away and violence won't change their views. Would I be successful in changing your views by introducing your head to a crow bar? I doubt it.

Would anyone have given a shit about their rights to free speech if you could have stopped the carrying out the holocaust and smashing the German workers movement?

You can't mess with democracy or the intelligence of the electorate. If you do, such people have a bigger chance of getting into power.

And do people have any doubt that people in the higher echelons wouldn’t smash democracy and anyone in their path given the opportunity?

Again, I repeat, you are insulting the intelligence of voters in this country. The BNP will never get into power with the leadership they have. Griffin might be able to think on his feet, but take it from an ex BNP member.....the rest of them are hopeless. Don't worry, they haven't got a chance if they have free speech. They are only humans and like every other politician I have observed they get too comfortable and let their guard down, they fuck up.

Also being thinking about Diane/Joe being duped or not know what the BNP is really about. Do people seriously think that people who have gone undercover in the SWP for a whole year aren’t hardcore activists? Of course they are……

Hard core activists...yep...but I don't know what their views are, nor am I too interested in knowing what Dianes view is. But that is different than trying to take away her right to hold views.

Also can I stress my sympathy for the people in the SWP and others over what has happened. I do hope the SWP learns some lessons from this though.

I hope they learn, that the only way to engage the BNP is through debate without lying. When I was a BNP member, I had to deal with a media outlet and they completly lied about everything I had told them. Shame really, I could have given them some juicy stuff, but my trust was betrayed. If people were to pack in the lies etc about the BNP, then perhaps it would be easy to win the debate with them. Having said that though, I have caught out BNP activists and senior members lying myself. Thats another reason why I'm not a member.

Now.......if I was to have spent the last 18 months or so, huddled with other BNP members defending myself physically against people like you. I would be more entrenched in the organisation. I'm one of the lucky ones. I've never had to deal with violence because of my BNP membership.

Remember.....I left the BNP......because someone up the top......made the mistake of thinking that I hate, to coin a phrase from him "Those fucking niggers".

You have to get into the mindset of why people would vote and support the BNP. If you think it's because BNP members hate blacks & asians....you'll fail.

Your aim is to deprive the BNP of members. Your mistake, is looking to much at the views of the hardcore extremists of the party. Don't make that mistake, because if you do, you'll have no chance of getting people out of the BNP. Their members are people. People don't like being threatened or intimidated. People in this day and age, won't stop supporting a party, just because you are going to try and make their lives hell. The other thing about people is they don't like being lied to.........

Psstt....the trick is not to make YOURSELF the enemy of the BNP membership...but to make the BNP leadership the enemy of the BNP membership. Thats they only way you're gonna keep em small.

 

[davgraham]

[QUOTE When I was a BNP member, SNIP [/QUOTE]


Layabout

Can you explain why you first joined the BNP. I've had a look at the programme and it has a sort of populist radicalism about it, but definitely not anti-capitalist.


. . . and others please do not derail this thread. I genuinely want to know how and why the BNP appeals to people because I' fairly certain it's not for the reasons the Left says.


Gra

 

[layabout]

[QUOTE When I was a BNP member, SNIP

Layabout

Can you explain why you first joined the BNP. I've had a look at the programme and it has a sort of populist radicalism about it, but definitely not anti-capitalist.


. . . and others please do not derail this thread. I genuinely want to know how and why the BNP appeals to people because I' fairly certain it's not for the reasons the Left says.


Gra[/QUOTE]

My motives were mainly to register my displeasure about the immigration + asylum. The final straw for me was when the Tories annouced that 40,000 asylum seekers a year is not a problem.

The figure should be in the hundreds, not thousands.

You have to remember, that there is a lot of people on the right, that don't trust Michael Howard when it comes to asylum seekers + immigration.

It's the culture of Britains commitments to the world being more important than the electorate that really turns my stomach.

If there is people being displaced by wars etc, then I would rather we just closed the doors, tear up the 1951 agreement that was made at the UN. Go back to the UN, roll our sleves up and sort out the worlds refugee problem.

I just get the feeling that dictators around the world, can just chuck out who they deem undersirable, for them to end up here or anywhere else for that matter.

Look at the mindset of a BNP radical. He's gonna say, "Well if it's OK for a dictator around the other side of the globe to chuck out his 'rubbish' by force, only for the likes of frog face Cherie to defend their rights to high heaven without her husband giving 2 shits about the electorate, then it's OK to eject them here by force.........after all there will be a bleeding heart on the other side of the world to take them........not"

I'm not justifying the BNP. I'm justifying why people are so pissed off with the 3 main parties.

I've read the immigration thread. Yeah sure, it's all very well saying lets have open borders.......other countries don't and there are countless reasons for that....social security, the welfare state and health services to name a few.

If I had my own way, each economic migrant that comes here, would have to lay down a business case for coming to this country. Fuck em. Really, honestly, I don't care what colour they are, fuck em as hard as we can, it's OUR interests, you know, the 60 million people who are already here an have a vote. Yeah sure you can come here, work, we'll tax you and at the end of it all you can fuck off to where you came from. Sounds harsh, but in this day an d age this country needs to look after it's own interests. Get em in, work em, tax em, fuck em off out. That way we don't have to pay em a pension. They should make their own provisions anyway.

Say you wanted to go to Japan, and they said, sure you can work here, earn your money at the end of it, you have to go home, you have a choice, you don't have to take it and it's their right. Why should we not have the same right?

Globalisation is here to stay. That means each country has to ruthlessly protect it's own interests. It's no use being fair, trying to make the world a better place without any other countries co-operation. We need money for our infrastructure etc, not for trying to help rid the world of it's ills......that's a global problem and I'm sorry, if a country is run by a dictator that is displacing people, we should be cutting off all foreign aid apart from food and using economic sanctions AND military force. If the UN doesn't like it, we should just shrug our shoulders and tell them we ain't taking in any more asylum seekers - end of.

Then there's the European Union.................

 

[Gumbert]

classic petite bourgoisie ....

gra

 

[steve_c]

I'm one of the founders of Manchester Against Racism - and I'm still trying to figure out what the BNP think they've achieved by playing 'Secret Squirrel'. Those two probably did more to harm the BNP than they did to help them whilst they were with us - hopefully they'll have learned something about being a decent human being at the same time. However, if they've stolen personal information then they have probably committed an offence under the Data Drotection Act and should be prosecuted for it.

 

[belboid]

However, if they've stolen personal information then they have probably committed an offence under the Data Drotection Act and should be prosecuted for it.

aye that'll show 'em'!

Wonder how many times the SWP could be similarly prosecuted?

 

[layabout]

I'm one of the founders of Manchester Against Racism - and I'm still trying to figure out what the BNP think they've achieved by playing 'Secret Squirrel'. Those two probably did more to harm the BNP than they did to help them whilst they were with us - hopefully they'll have learned something about being a decent human being at the same time. However, if they've stolen personal information then they have probably committed an offence under the Data Drotection Act and should be prosecuted for it.

All very well, but what about Sykes and the BNP?

If memory serves me correctly, personal information about BNP members has been passed on to unions thanks to Sykes. Are you up for the Sykes being prosecuted under the same data protection laws?

Do you argree, that unions should take action against BNP members, as a result of membership information being passed to them?

 

[todash]

I wonder how many other infiltrators they have placed in the SWP/Respect etc. I dare say they only revealed themselves because the BNP or worse still C18 now have others in place.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Perhaps Joe and Dianne are well aware of the problems they are going to face when they get back to Uni...there will be political capital and publicity a pleanty to be made out of any attack on them.

It might feel easier to see them as simple dupes, who on being cast aside by the BNP will come to their senses, but they could well be up to the necks even more than people on these boards have so far imagined...the game could be a lot longer than merely embarassing (and putting the wind up) Manchester SWP.

Louis Mac

Yes BNP would love them to be attacked IMO. I think Di and Joe should be very carefull. I wouldnt put it past the BNP to do the job themselves.

AFA issue. I think an X WP member raised at a [MAR] UAF org meeting that UAF should organise a section along AFA lines. The meeting rejected it, he left UAF for "political and personal reasons".

RMP3

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I wonder how many other infiltrators they have placed in the SWP/Respect etc. I dare say they only revealed themselves because the BNP or worse still C18 now have others in place.

That way lies paranoia.

Frankly I doubt they have that much to gain from it on an ongoing basis compared to having activists doing actual overt BNP work.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Yes BNP would love them to be attacked IMO. I think Di and Joe should be very carefull. I wouldnt put it past the BNP to do the job themselves.

AFA issue. I think an X WP member raised at a [MAR] UAF org meeting that UAF should organise a section along AFA lines. The meeting rejected it, he left UAF for "political and personal reasons".

RMP3

Let's be honest, it's reasonably likely someone will have a pop at them. I couldn't care less about that. Obviously it would be disastrous for anyone on the left to even think about orchestrating such an attack. But IMHO it would equally be a disaster for the swp in Manchester uni not to be doing everything in their power starting yesterday to build as big a political campaign as possible to make these two scumbags feel unwelcome on campus come termtime.

 

[layabout]

Let's be honest, it's reasonably likely someone will have a pop at them. I couldn't care less about that. Obviously it would be disastrous for anyone on the left to even think about orchestrating such an attack. But IMHO it would equally be a disaster for the swp in Manchester uni not to be doing everything in their power starting yesterday to build as big a political campaign as possible to make these two scumbags feel unwelcome on campus come termtime.

Really? I don't think political activity should be allowed on campus myself personally. As disgusting as you find those 2 characters, there is nothing they have done to warrent such treatment. They should be left alone. People should be studying, not settling petty scores.

 

[Gumbert]

Really? I don't think political activity should be allowed on campus myself personally.

S/hes right you know, keep it all pro business studies like...

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Really? I don't think political activity should be allowed on campus myself personally. As disgusting as you find those 2 characters, there is nothing they have done to warrent such treatment. They should be left alone. People should be studying, not settling petty scores.

I was aiming my remarks at fellow socialists first and foremost, can't be bothered trying to convince you that being a fascist is a bad thing. Why you even bothering to talk to me anyhows, I'm one of those economic immigrants you want to 'Get em in, work em, tax em, fuck em off out.'

 

[layabout]

S/hes right you know, keep it all pro business studies like...

Please. Perhaps I should have worded my post a bit better. Perhaps ALL politcal activism should be banned from universities. But hey, I must admit, I'm not an expert, but if students are playing games and getting involved in tit for tat revenge then they need expelling..........no matter who they support.

 

[flypanam]

Let's be honest, it's reasonably likely someone will have a pop at them. I couldn't care less about that. Obviously it would be disastrous for anyone on the left to even think about orchestrating such an attack. But IMHO it would equally be a disaster for the swp in Manchester uni not to be doing everything in their power starting yesterday to build as big a political campaign as possible to make these two scumbags feel unwelcome on campus come termtime.

Too right

 

[layabout]

I was aiming my remarks at fellow socialists first and foremost, can't be bothered trying to convince you that being a fascist is a bad thing. Why you even bothering to talk to me anyhows, I'm one of those economic immigrants you want to 'Get em in, work em, tax em, fuck em off out.'

What, you find it so offensive that this country looks after itself. I've worked in other countries myself, I would not be offended at all, if such a country looked after it's own interests.

For instance do you know that the Dutch are sick and tired of British druggies? There is a proposed system of repatriation even within the EU for people who can't support themselves down to drugs. I'm not offended by someone drafting such legislation, heck it might even be implemented already.

Of course I'm not saying you're an undisrable. I'm not even calling for any of our current populace to be deported. I'm all for future migrants to put forward a business case to work here, if thats what they are coming here. I want it to be made clear before they come here, that they can't come here for the full duration. Take it or leave it. They won't be offended, why should they be? There is nothing facist about that. It's putting the interests of the country first.

Back to the main topic. There are many ways for people to be "bad" - it's subjective. You don't take the law into your own hands and harass people. If these 2 individuals have broken the law, report them to the police. Other than that, leave the fuckers alone, otherwise you are no better than a Combat18 thug IMHO.

 

[JHE]

Not exploits, but antics

Thanks very much Joe and Diane for your excellent work.You will be hearing more of their exploits soon.

LOL! Can't wait!

What exploits will these be? The times they sat bravely in the student union bar with a bunch of harmlessly pissed and stoned student Trots gibbering about who they'd 'put up against the wall'? The times they superhumanly did really early stints trying to sell Social Worker - sometimes even before noon? The times they and their comrades heroically stuffed unsold copies of Social Worker under their beds? The times they made really crap speeches at poorly-attended public meetings - using the phrase "fucking Tony Blair" several times because the Social Workers think it sounds really angry and working-class? Maybe the intrepid infiltrators' greatest exploits were persuading Galloway, German and Bennett to pose for photos with them.

Exploits, my arse! Wasting a year with a bunch of Toytown revolutionaries ain't exactly Indiana Jones!

 

[layabout]

When I worked in Holland, there was the odd arsehole about that made it perfectly clear that there are too many Brits there.

One told me in no uncertain terms that he wished I would just fuck off home and it's his country.

I just shrugged my shoulders and said "Your fucking problem mate".

He didn't ruin my day, I didn't feel the urge to glass him one.

 

[General Ludd]

What, you find it so offensive that this country looks after itself.

Cause I've got much much more in common with a working class guy in Ireland than I ever will have with a British CEO. I don't give a shit about 'British interests', cause in practice that always means the interests of British bosses, politicans and all those shits. What I care about is what is in the interest of my class, and class doesn't stop at national borders.

 

[layabout]

Cause I've got much much more in common with a working class guy in Ireland than I ever will have with a British CEO. I don't give a shit about 'British interests', cause in practice that always means the interests of British bosses, politicans and all those shits. What I care about is what is in the interest of my class, and class doesn't stop at national borders.

All you have done is explain your politics. Nothing more. I can quite easily take you up on your argument.

Please explain how open borders, letting in people who are working class but foreign, helps working class people in this country. As a matter of fact, I believe working class people in this country would lose out most to open borders.

 

[cockneyrebel]

layabout while the BNP are not the same as the nazis in every way they are both under the bracket of fascists.

People have mocked other fascist groups in the past and said there's no way they'd carry out ethnic cleansing or there's no way they'd get in power etc And history in some circumstances sadly proved them wrong.

Do you think that every member of the Nazis party as they were growing wanted the holocaust? Of course not, but that didn't change the agenda of the Nazis party as an organisation.

The BNPs stated aim, even in a position of weakness, is to remove every black and Asian person from the country. Why couldn't this happen? It's happened in other countries, what's your evidence that the UK is qualitively different from every other country where it has happened? Indeed the Nazis were in a capitalist democracy when coming to power. If there was a massive economic downturn the BNP could well become a major threat.

The means the BNP will use will be means of violence when needed if they get any real strength. Their leadership says this, as do their organisers, except now they only say it behind closed doors.

Knowing that the BNP is fascist and will use physical violence the left and the workers movement have every right to defend itself, whether the BNP are small or not. As for stopping the BNP through no platform, it's been very successful in the past. How it should be used is a tactical question, but the self-defence against fascism from present or future violence is totally valid.

Dunno what the man thinks. He's got a lot on his mind at the moment. He's walking on a tight rope. He's trying to reform the party and one easy way of doing it, is to tell them that the party is being forced into such a position.

Do you really believe that Griffin, with his past history, wants to turn the BNP into peaceful right-wing party? In that case why doesn't he join the UKIP? Of course he doesn't. As said loads of past fascist leaders have played the democratic/thug cards at different times as and when necessary.

Layabout all the evidence of what the BNP is about is there to see. If they are reforming themselves so much why do the "comedians" at the RWB "family" festival openly make jokes about the holocaust and leaders make comment about "white dread locked slags".....

Also what are butchers, nigels, past carings views on what should be done in Manchester and the two individuals involved?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Also what are butchers, nigels, past carings views on what should be done in Manchester and the two individuals involved?

Good question mate, I'd like to hear that as well although I'd be inclined to give Nigel the benefit of the doubt on this one.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Of course I'm not saying you're an undisrable. I'm not even calling for any of our current populace to be deported.

I feel much better now, thanks for that.

As a matter of fact you were, you said 'we'll tax you and at the end of it all you can fuck off to where you came from' so let's not play games here, you do want to deport people. The fact you won't want to do it to me till I'm pension age don't make me feel any better disposed towards you pal.

 

[Pickman's model]

what should be done in manchester - and nationally - is that the swp should decide which way they want to go. they gather a ton of information on people via their various fronts and their endless petitions: how much information, like membership lists, names and addresses of those foolish enough to sign petitions &c has fallen into the hands of the bnp? imo the swp can either chalk this up to experience and ignore the consequences of potential future infiltration - which has proved so easy it's ridiculous - or they can do something sensible, like having candidate or probationary membership status.

these two infiltrators seem to have been involved in the organisation of the uaf launch in manchester. the bnp turned up to that (as you'd know if you read the sun but not if you read social worker) - did the infiltrators pass information to their handlers, as seems likely?

there needs to be a rethink in the swp and its fronts about whether they are playing at being radicals, in which case they may as well continue as before, or whether they are actually serious, in which case security needs to be stepped up and some sort of democracy needs to be constructed. it's no good having people "elected" to responsible positions on the say-so of some senior member of the swp, as such appointments undermines any degree of accountability the office-holders should have.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Also layabout you seem to see “us” as being a nation. I see “us” as my class. The rulings classes fuck over the working classes internationally. Do you really think the British ruling classes give a fuck about the British working class through patriotism? That would be why they’ve fucked their own working classes over since day dot.

Any struggle of the working class is inevitably linked to international issues, all the more so with globalisation. Also as for you “fuck em” attitude does that also go for the nearly third of doctors and 40% of nurses who are immigrants? Or are foreigners just there to be used for the British?