fascist infiltration of the left

[danno_at_work]

what should be done in manchester - and nationally - is that the swp should decide which way they want to go. they gather a ton of information on people via their various fronts and their endless petitions: how much information, like membership lists, names and addresses of those foolish enough to sign petitions &c has fallen into the hands of the bnp? imo the swp can either chalk this up to experience and ignore the consequences of potential future infiltration - which has proved so easy it's ridiculous - or they can do something sensible, like having candidate or probationary membership status.

how would probationary membership status have stopped these two?
two levels of membership doesn't seem very....horizontal>

 

[cockneyrebel]

pickmans I agree, but what do you and the others I mentioned think should be done in terms of the response to the two individuals involved (both by the SWP and others).....

 

[Pickman's model]

how would probationary membership status have stopped these two?
two levels of membership doesn't seem very....horizontal>

shouldn't matter to the swp.

and why is probationary membership not "horizontal"? should all groups let anyone who asks in immediately, without knowing anything about them? see what it's done for manc swp!

 

[Pickman's model]

pickmans I agree, but what do you and the others I mentioned think should be done in terms of the response to the two individuals involved (both by the SWP and others).....

nechaev's actions leap unbidden to mind when discussing this sort of thing. not that i'd ever advise anyone to imitate him. or not to imitate him, for that matter.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Not really an answer to cockney's question was it pickman? I am amused by the notion of anarchists advocating candidate membership of an organisation.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

nechaev's actions leap unbidden to mind when discussing this sort of thing. not that i'd ever advise anyone to imitate him. or not to imitate him, for that matter.

Now that's toy-town politics

 

[Pickman's model]

Now that's toy-town politics

i'm not sure what to make of that, coming as it does from an swper. allegedly.

 

[flimsier]

Not really an answer to cockney's question was it pickman? I am amused by the notion of anarchists advocating candidate membership of an organisation.

Me too.

The only organisation that I know of who claim to be on the left who did this were the RCP.

Strange that CR agrees as well. Do WP have candidate membership?

 

[Pickman's model]

Not really an answer to cockney's question was it pickman? I am amused by the notion of anarchists advocating candidate membership of an organisation.

what i mean by candidate, or probationary, membership of an organisation is the sort of thing class war do, where people who want to become involved are first met, and for the first three months of their membership is probationary, so people can get the measure of them and see what they're like. at the end of three months, the group takes a decision on their membership at which point they become "full" members. or not.

it's just an obvious security thing, something the swp are clearly not bothered about.

 

[danno_at_work]

what i mean by candidate, or probationary, membership of an organisation is the sort of thing class war do, where people who want to become involved are first met, and for the first three months of their membership is probationary, so people can get the measure of them and see what they're like. at the end of three months, the group takes a decision on their membership at which point they become "full" members. or not.

it's just an obvious security thing, something the swp are clearly not bothered about.

i don't understand how that would stop people who are on a long term infiltration mission

 

[bolshiebhoy]

i'm not sure what to make of that, coming as it does from an swper. allegedly.

Hang on, you have an unbidden thought that comes to mind, but you won't advocate it and that's serious politics and a reasoned answer to cockney. Uh uh, toy town anarchism.

 

[Pickman's model]

i don't understand how that would stop people who are on a long term infiltration mission

if someone really wanted to infiltrate any group on the left, they probably could. most of the fash are so cack handed, though, that they swiftly become obvious. look at kim philby and anthony blunt, though - they infiltrated somewhere which had considerable security precautions, so nothing's perfect. no point leaving the keys under the mat, though, and hoping yr infiltrator won't look there, which appears to be the limit of swp security.

 

[Pickman's model]

Hang on, you have an unbidden thought that comes to mind, but you won't advocate it and that's serious politics and a reasoned answer to cockney. Uh uh, toy town anarchism.

fuck off with yr arsery! the swp's answer to their recent embarrassment seems to be to pretend it never happened, or to whimper into their cocoa. if you want to know what i think i believe i've given a fairly good indication of what previous infiltrated groups have done to the infiltrator. if you know nothing of the laws of incitement, i do - so i'll leave it there.

 

[danno_at_work]

if someone really wanted to infiltrate any group on the left, they probably could. most of the fash are so cack handed, though, that they swiftly become obvious. look at kim philby and anthony blunt, though - they infiltrated somewhere which had considerable security precautions, so nothing's perfect. no point leaving the keys under the mat, though, and hoping yr infiltrator won't look there, which appears to be the limit of swp security.

but these two in manchester didn't become obvious
so class war have two levels of membership is this consistent with your views picky

 

[bolshiebhoy]

fuck off with yr arsery! the swp's answer to their recent embarrassment seems to be to pretend it never happened, or to whimper into their cocoa. if you want to know what i think i believe i've given a fairly good indication of what previous infiltrated groups have done to the infiltrator. if you know nothing of the laws of incitement, i do - so i'll leave it there.

Temper temper. So your political response is that the swp should do them over. Brilliant and asuming they survive this attack and go back to uni as open bnpers and have bnp stalls etc should the left at Manchester do anything to prevent this or is your advice gonna be yet more things that go bump in the night stuff oh student of Bakunin.

 

[layabout]

layabout while the BNP are not the same as the nazis in every way they are both under the bracket of fascists.

People have mocked other fascist groups in the past and said there's no way they'd carry out ethnic cleansing or there's no way they'd get in power etc And history in some circumstances sadly proved them wrong.

Do you think that every member of the Nazis party as they were growing wanted the holocaust? Of course not, but that didn't change the agenda of the Nazis party as an organisation.

I already addressed that issue further up this thread.

The BNPs stated aim, even in a position of weakness, is to remove every black and Asian person from the country. Why couldn't this happen? It's happened in other countries, what's your evidence that the UK is qualitively different from every other country where it has happened? Indeed the Nazis were in a capitalist democracy when coming to power. If there was a massive economic downturn the BNP could well become a major threat.

Wrong! They would not become a major threat just on a major economic downturn. It's impossible for the BNP to be a threat.
[/quote]

The means the BNP will use will be means of violence when needed if they get any real strength. Their leadership says this, as do their organisers, except now they only say it behind closed doors.

For goodness sakes. Some people around here must have the same old arguments written down somewhere. Read up further on this thread. Please don't repeat peoples points, but actually challenge my answers to those points. They can't use violence AND grow. It doesn't work like that.

Knowing that the BNP is fascist and will use physical violence the left and the workers movement have every right to defend itself, whether the BNP are small or not. As for stopping the BNP through no platform, it's been very successful in the past. How it should be used is a tactical question, but the self-defence against fascism from present or future violence is totally valid.

It's not succesful. It didn't stop people like me from joining, it actually encourages people like me to join. I despise any organisation which has any policy to stop free speech. You are insulting my intelligence, if you come along and tell me that I'm not to be trusted with the consumption of BNP politics.

Do you really believe that Griffin, with his past history, wants to turn the BNP into peaceful right-wing party? In that case why doesn't he join the UKIP? Of course he doesn't. As said loads of past fascist leaders have played the democratic/thug cards at different times as and when necessary.

It doesn't matter what I believe, what Griffin believes or any other individual believes. He can't turn the party back to violence because he would lose support. I explained why further up this thread.

Layabout all the evidence of what the BNP is about is there to see. If they are reforming themselves so much why do the "comedians" at the RWB "family" festival openly make jokes about the holocaust and leaders make comment about "white dread locked slags".....

But that's politics mate. If I was to have gone along to this years RWB festival and found it do be a den of racists from the security, to the leaders, to even the ladies serving the tea, I would simply just walk away. You know it yourself, that the majority of people in this country hate racism. It doesn't mean however, that we should stop people from hanging themselves with their own rope if they are indeed racist.

The main jist of my argument is, that no party can lie to its members and get away from it forever. The membership will just walk away. There are not that many violent extremists out there waiting to join the BNP, such people have already played their cards and have joined up to whichever organisation takes their fancy. Most of the new membership the BNP hope to attract, are going to be moderates, most of whom are pissed off with the main 3 parties and would resent racism. Such people have to find out the hard way and are best not being intimidated. I've already said. If you want to damage the BNP, you don't make any enemy out of the BNP members, you need to turn the BNP membership against the leadership, to do that, ya have to treat BNP members with the same kind of respect you would of a customer. You can't turn a BNP member, unless you are friendly with them. The idea is to make yourself look democratic. In their eyes, you'll never be democratic, if you try to abuse their democratic rights.

 

[Paul Marsh]

i don't understand how that would stop people who are on a long term infiltration mission

It gives you three months, if you are suspicious, to look into that person's background, and to check anything that does not add up.

It also makes it clear to potential infiltrators that at the very least you are going to have to expend three months worth of expenses/time/trouble before you even get membership of the group.

The SWP could take the following immediate steps to improve their security:

1. Stop leaving blank membership cards lying around at Marxism (as has happened often in the past)
2. Require all new members to be proposed and seconded by an existing member only after they have been active in their local branch for three months
3. Develop a membership based in the community rather than the transitory bedsit land of studentville
4. Do not add anyone to e mail or phone lists unless they have a home address that has been checked
5. Avoid a political culture where loyalty to a party official, or fulltimer, is more important than politcal integrity or loyalty to your beliefs
5. Quit working with Searchlight. Given the number of moles Searchlight has in the BNP, it is very likely Searchlight knew about this operation - if so the SWP need to be asking why they let it run.
6. The SWP are a pretty weedy bunch. They need to beef themselves up a bit, so any infiltrators at least feel slightly wary of taking them on. Lets face it, being threatened by Manchester SWSS is a bit like being threatened by Pike from Dad's army.

One of the things that must be most disturbing to the SWP is how comfortably people with vastly opposing politics were able to pass themselves off as committed SWPers. I would suspect that is because SWP politics are actually very easy to imitate - just take a liberal position on every single issue, shout "Ra, Ra, Ra" and bob's your uncle.

 

[past caring]

Are you now working for Searchlight, layabout?

 

[cockneyrebel]

Strange that CR agrees as well. Do WP have candidate membership?

Yeah we do, what’s funny about that? It’s not like it’s a test or something, but if someone has just joined a group surely they need time to see if the group is right for them, they’re not gonna know straight away. Also a branch should be able to work out whether that person is ok. And it’s only for a few months. In terms of people joining WP we ask them to read the manifesto and see if they agree with it before joining. But what do the SWP do on this matter? Ask people to join on the basis of a few paragraphs on “where we stand”?

I don’t think any of these things we stop infiltration and I don’t think people should be paranoid. But even from a point of view of democracy the SWP is wrong. Why should someone be able to join no questions asked and have a vote/say in the direction on the group? And the SWP does sign people up literally without knowing anything about them. As said before I was asked to sign people up in Nice even if I couldn’t understand them and pointing to a paragraph in whatever language I thought they spoke!!!

I don’t think a group could ever totally stop agents of the state as they are too clever and have too many resources, although I shouldn’t think MI5 is too bothered by the English left! However fascist are probably easier to stop, but obviously you can’t do anything 100%

Valuing political knowledge at least as much as activism, having candidate memberships, not promoting people to positions of responsibility as soon as you’ve met them etc will all help. And the SWP falls down on all of these things. They sign people up on no political basis whatsoever and promote them on activism within months.

In terms of why the BNP did this I still can’t quite work it out. It seems they found out fuck all and surely this can’t be worth a year out for two of their good activists?!

 

[flypanam]

Yeah we do, what’s funny about that? It’s not like it’s a test or something, but if someone has just joined a group surely they need time to see if the group is right for them, they’re not gonna know straight away. Also a branch should be able to work out whether that person is ok. And it’s only for a few months. In terms of people joining WP we ask them to read the manifesto and see if they agree with it before joining. But what do the SWP do on this matter? Ask people to join on the basis of a few paragraphs on “where we stand”?

Sorry but when you have a probationary period it is never to see if the group is right fot them. Its about whether they are right for the group.

at least pickemans was honest.

 

[danno_at_work]

It gives you three months, if you are suspicious, to look into that person's background, and to check anything that does not add up.

It also makes it clear to potential infiltrators that at the very least you are going to have to expend three months worth of expenses/time/trouble before you even get membership of the group.

The SWP could take the following immediate steps to improve their security:

1. Stop leaving blank membership cards lying around at Marxism (as has happened often in the past)
2. Require all new members to be proposed and seconded by an existing member only after they have been active in their local branch for three months
3. Develop a membership based in the community rather than the transitory bedsit land of studentville
4. Do not add anyone to e mail or phone lists unless they have a home address that has been checked
5. Avoid a political culture where loyalty to a party official, or fulltimer, is more important than politcal integrity or loyalty to your beliefs
5. Quit working with Searchlight. Given the number of moles Searchlight has in the BNP, it is very likely Searchlight knew about this operation - if so the SWP need to be asking why they let it run.
6. The SWP are a pretty weedy bunch. They need to beef themselves up a bit, so any infiltrators at least feel slightly wary of taking them on. Lets face it, being threatened by Manchester SWSS is a bit like being threatened by Pike from Dad's army.

One of the things that must be most disturbing to the SWP is how comfortably people with vastly opposing politics were able to pass themselves off as committed SWPers. I would suspect that is because SWP politics are actually very easy to imitate - just take a liberal position on every single issue, shout "Ra, Ra, Ra" and bob's your uncle.

1. i have never in 12 years in and out of the swp been asked for my membership card
2. turns it into a clique i want to be part of an open party not some dirty little club
3. students obviously cant agree with political ideas and even if they do we should ignore them because they move house more.
4. i dont have a home address that could be checked, (checked by who is another thing you lot? what about squats etc..)
5.agreed
5.yeah it is intersesting they didn't tell us.
6. you can only join our group if your hard very non hierachical

i'll ignore the rest of it

 

[belboid]

Sorry but when you have a probationary period it is never to see if the group is right fot them. Its about whether they are right for the group.

at least pickemans was honest.

I was offerred a candidate membership of WP last year, I think CRs telling is quite right actually (or at least it would have fitted with my experience). For me, I had had many of the arguments about why I wouldn't join in advance with members, particularly about points of their programme that i would find it very difficult to argue (I doubt that state cap really comes up that often in normal conversation, but there were obviously more relevant points too). The reply I was given was 'yeah, well we can understand that, but why not try rather than sitting on your arse being a smartaleck. If after a couple of months, you still feel the same way, then don;'t take up membership, and no hard feelings'. I think it would also work the same way with someone who had wanted to join because they'd met them (or the SWP or whoever) and seen them as 'really good fighters' that they wanted to get involved with, but hadn't really known about much more of their politics. For them a candidate membership would allow them to learn about the group more generally and see if it really was for them. It would then be much easier, I think, for that person after threee months or whatever, to go, 'I cant join because I'mn not a vanguardist' (or whatever) but still be able to keep working together - rather than trying to disappear and avoid the group for the next umpteen years. Seems perfectly reasonable, honest and practical to me.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Layabout you seem to base all your evidence of what the BNP is and will become on your personal opinion despite open evidence about their festival, leader, organisers etc It just doesn’t stand up. As said other fascist groups that have come to power haven’t stated all their aims from day one and played the democracy/thug cards when needed. As the BNP do now.

You then go on to say the BNP can never get anywhere using violence, despite the fact that all fascist organisations in the past have all come to power in capitalist democracies using violence. As said is the UK qualitively different from these other countries, and in which case why?

If the BNP has dropped fascism as its ideology and wants to be a right-wing party then why hasn’t it just folded and merged with the UKIP?! The BNP has been exposed again and again for its fascist methods, if you wanna ignore that, fair enough….


PS Flypanman that might be your cynical view but it's not mine or WPs. Or do you think that someone will know if a group is ok for them the moment they join?! As for a probationary membership being a clique, have a look at the SWP leadership and the way the SWP promotes people on how much they are willing to feel a clique, that’s a dirty little club!

 

[levien]

BB, flim, fly, rebel PM if you want an idea of whats happening.

 

[belboid]

I'll just stick this post in here, cos altho it is generally irrelevant to the specific discussion, I dont wanna give the nazi's another thread of their own, and most people who are interested are probably reading this one already:

Second Yorkshire Tory quits party and defects to BNP

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/

A YORKSHIRE Conservative stalwart who has been a
senior party official as well as holding public office
is defecting to the far-Right British National Party,
the Yorkshire Post has learned.

Roger Roberts, the former vice-chairman of the
Dewsbury constituency association and a Tory Mirfield
town councillor, said he had become increasingly
disillusioned with the Conservatives and had made the
"very difficult decision" to join the BNP.

He said he had seen the recent BBC documentary
exposing the openly racist behaviour of BNP members in
Bradford and Keighley but it had not dissuaded him.
Coun Roberts, 60, who has been the Tories' chief whip
on Kirklees Council, is the second prominent Yorkshire
Conservative to join the BNP after Calderdale
councillor Geoffrey Wallace crossed the floor last
year.

Last night, he was warned by Conservative local
government spokesman Eric Pickles MP, that he was now
a pariah as far as the party was concerned. And angry
local Conservatives demanded Coun Roberts resign and
fight a by-election for his Hopton ward seat on
Mirfield Town Council – something he is refusing to
do.

Mr Pickles said: "This is a one-way street. There are
no circumstances under which the Conservative Party
would ever consider his re-admittance to the party.

"We regard the BNP as being completely outside the
mainstream of British politics, as a fringe party
which holds vile and abhorrent views to which we are
wholly opposed."

But Coun Roberts, who has resigned from the party and
given up his position as chairman of the Heckmondwike
branch, said he had not taken the decision lightly and
claimed it was not solely due to racial issues. "It's
been a very, very difficult decision because for 45
years I've been a member of the Conservative Party but
I've been considering my position for some time.

"I've always been to the right of the party and I
believe in true Conservative values about helping
people to help themselves but since losing Margaret
Thatcher we've progressively tried to become all
things to all people.

"A large element of my decision has nothing to do with
race. I've no objection whatsoever to anyone who comes
to this country for whatever reason who abides by our
rules, is prepared to work and make a contribution. It
doesn't matter what race, creed or colour they are.
What I don't like is the country being swamped as it
has been."

Asked about the BBC Secret Agent documentary, which
has led to six BNP activists being arrested, Coun
Roberts claimed many of the remarks had been fuelled
by alcohol and it wasn't representative of the party.

"The film had no bearing on me and I don't think it
has had any bearing on the vast majority of BNP
members." Mirfield Town Council has 16 members, one
Labour, 14 Conservatives and Coun Roberts, who sits on
the finance sub-committee.

Dewsbury's prospective Tory parliamentary candidate
Sayeeda Hussain-Warsi said: "I am disappointed and
probably surprised really. After the recent media
publicity surrounding the BNP I really thought anyone
with any sense would see through the party for what
they really are.

"But if Roger feels his views are those of the BNP,
maybe it's the right place for him and the
Conservative Party shouldn't have people like that."

She called on him to stand down and fight a
by-election as he had been elected on a certain basis
which had now changed. Robert Light, the Tory group
leader on Kirklees Council, said he had known his
former colleague had been considering his position for
some time.

He said: "I'm very disappointed. How anybody could
leave a democratic party for the BNP I find bizarre –
I don't think any rational person would want to be
associated with them."

He felt he should take a principled stand and fight a
by-election. The BNP is fighting a by-election for the
Battyeford ward on Mirfield Town Council next
Thursday.

The BNP's Kirklees organiser, Nick Cass, said he
welcomed Coun Roberts and said his experience would be
very useful.

 

[past caring]

Also what are butchers, nigels, past carings views on what should be done in Manchester and the two individuals involved?

Student politics are almost entirely irrelevant - unless you're a Trot group that couldn't survive without them.

Given that, and the fact that I've been very clear previously about how the BNP can best be countered, I've got to say "not a lot", by way of answer.

 

[flypanam]

I was offerred a candidate membership of WP last year, I think CRs telling is quite right actually (or at least it would have fitted with my experience).

at a knock down price i take it. Btw you were in the sparts(?) you'd be used that already no?

and cockknee cynical, well i don't really think so. i do think that if someone joins they will be able to make their own minds about whether the group is right for them. It is the process to find that out, for you it took two years before you decided to leave the swp. now you may argue the swp is shit, i'll disagree but it was an experince that led you to WP.

I do have a problem when a probabionary period is offered and the 'Candidate' is stuck doing a petition out on a street stall and not allowed to sell the paper a la sparts.

 

[belboid]

at a knock down price i take it. Btw you were in the sparts(?) you'd be used that already no?

yes, well i was only trying to forge a merger so that i could sell Workers PowerHammer!

 

[flypanam]

yes, well i was only trying to forge a merger so that i could sell Workers PowerHammer!

 

[layabout]

Layabout you seem to base all your evidence of what the BNP is and will become on your personal opinion despite open evidence about their festival, leader, organisers etc It just doesn’t stand up. As said other fascist groups that have come to power haven’t stated all their aims from day one and played the democracy/thug cards when needed. As the BNP do now.

It doesn't matter what any other entity has done in the past. Comparing facist groups in the past of other countries is like comparing muslims in this country with muslims in Northern Nigeria.......pointless and irrelivant.

What I say about the BNP doesn't even need to stand up, especially, when all that matters, is whether you want to see their membership go up or down. Furthermore, what I think of the BNP doesn't really matter either. The simple fact of the matter is that you can't fuck about with peoples rights to speech - end of. Over and above that there is no fucking way quite a few people in the BNP and the vast majority of any future membership would put up with the true violent facism you talk of.........then there is the rest of the country. ...

You then go on to say the BNP can never get anywhere using violence, despite the fact that all fascist organisations in the past have all come to power in capitalist democracies using violence.

Oh please. They would never have enough people to do such a thing. The extremists have already stood up and been counted. Any future membership of the BNP are likely to be moderates and not violent. So if you don't want BNP membership to swell, the best way to attack them is though open debate. You may say the leadership would lie, fine fair enough.....but the vast majority of their membership won't suffer it and there would be a huge amount of infighting.

As said is the UK qualitively different from these other countries, and in which case why?

The same way as the vast majority of UK muslims are different from muslims from most other countries. Like it or not, this country has it's own culture and way of doing things and it rubs off on all of us.

If the BNP has dropped fascism as its ideology and wants to be a right-wing party then why hasn’t it just folded and merged with the UKIP?!

1.) At this stage UKIP would do themselves no favours or their objective. The far left would just say the whole organisation is racist, because the usual suspects are still members.

2.) It's not in Griffins interests - end of discussion.

The BNP has been exposed again and again for its fascist methods, if you wanna ignore that, fair enough….

It's not a question of ignoring it. If individuals from the normal members up to NG break the law, we have the authorities to protect us. I didn't ignore extremists, if I did, I would be still in the BNP and I wouldn't be having this conversation with you. It's democracy remember. If people don't like the BNPs message, they won't vote for them. If you try to muffle what the BNP has to say, the electorate would see you as very undemocratic individual indeed.