fascist infiltration of the left

[silentNate]

I'll be really pissed if those racist shits have my phone number or address though it's Sol I feel sorry for seeing that he thought they were genuine

 

[General Ludd]

Any group that has no background checks on new members is going to get completely fucked over if it ever starts to threaten the state*. There's a good bit on infilitration of the Black Panthers here.

*Not that the SWP is ever going to be a threat to anyone.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I do think there is a distinction between the political question of how open the doors should be and the security one of how many checks you should do before someone gets access to national positions and all that entails in terms of lists etc. Even in the days before the doors were thrown open in recruitment terms it was always a bit frightening how quickly anyone who showed enthuasiasm would be invited into the national office to do Marxism mailings etc with ready access to membership details. This at the same time as we were also being asked to come and sleep in the centre over night because the nazis had threatened to attack it! Although ultimately how much can a socialist group do to defend itself against someone determined and talented enough?

 

[General Ludd]

Although ultimately how much can a socialist group do to defend itself against someone determined and talented enough?

If you don't think your forms of organisation are robust enough to resist one individual, let alone the entire state, then maybe you should do some serious thinking about how effective your forms of organisation are.

I do think there is a distinction between the political question of how open the doors should be and the security one of how many checks you should do before someone gets access to national positions and all that entails in terms of lists etc.

That creates 2 categories of member though, if you don't trust someone enough to give them your home address then you shouldn't be letting them join in the first place.

 

[levien]

As soom one named in the article perhaps people will listerned to me on this one. I'm going to say very little as its our internal issue and frankly non off your business. I'm also going to ask SWP members not to post on this issue yet for obvious reasons.

I am on the same course as the "lad" and was active in the same branch. His politics and attitude to others were not great and he was not always popular in our branch. his willingness to take time consuming jobs on meant he often got them (as no one else wanted them) he never had much influence a mild spanner in the works at best.

Both were incredibly active and helped build many campaigns the BNP would despise. I am personally wounded at this if true, but it is not a big issue politically. The SWP unlike the BNP is an open party with nothing to hide. We wear our politics openly and there is nothing an "infiltrator" can find out that any of you couldn't by turning up to the odd forum STWC meeting. We are proud of our open recruitment policy and the fact that we aim to get new members as involved as possible. The fact the BNP have chosen to do this shows that they are not the force they were. This is a trick of the open far right and not of a party that months ago was looking at MEps.

If anyone in either branch is worried contact the party

 

[butchersapron]

As soom one named in the article perhaps people will listerned to me on this one. I'm going to say very little as its our internal issue and frankly non off your business. I'm also going to ask SWP members not to post on this issue yet for obvious reasons.

I am on the same course as the "lad" and was active in the same branch. His politics and attitude to others were not great and he was not always popular in our branch. his willingness to take time consuming jobs on meant he often got them (as no one else wanted them) he never had much influence a mild spanner in the works at best.

Both were incredibly active and helped build many campaigns the BNP would despise. I am personally wounded at this if true, but it is not a big issue politically. The SWP unlike the BNP is an open party with nothing to hide. We wear our politics openly and there is nothing an "infiltrator" can find out that any of you couldn't by turning up to the odd forum STWC meeting. We are proud of our open recruitment policy and the fact that we aim to get new members as involved as possible. The fact the BNP have chosen to do this shows that they are not the force they were. This is a trick of the open far right and not of a party that months ago was looking at MEps.

If anyone in either branch is worried contact the party

The arrogance and naivity in that post is not going to help things - if you cannot see just why this concerns people beyond the swp i suggest that you ask BB or belboid or someone else who was a long term member to fill you in.

If he was so peripheral and unifluential why was he put forward as a 'leading member'? Why was he invited onto leading bodies etc.

(And i have no doubt that you'll dissmiss these questions and other posters points as sectarian gloating)

 

[Joe Reilly]

The article also claims they were involved in AFA - Do you know anything about this smash?

QUOTE]

No it dosen't. The AFA reference is about Searchlight trying to set up some sort flag of convenience (son of AFA) off the back of the publication of 'No Retreat' book. The authors had both been expelled form AFA over a decade previously.

 

[kropotkin]

Not stopped being a party-hack moron then Cliffite. At least Sol and RMP3 have some bloody sense and independent thought...

Fucking hell.

Your refusal to even countenance that your stupid policy of letting anyone have access to members' information might be a problem is astounding

 

[levien]

Remember that your evidence is a BNP article mine is that he's in my laboratory and my course for the last two years. This is an internal matter and non of your business. There are definatley no lists for people beyond the two branches involved so it is of no concern beyond the SWP.

 

[butchersapron]

I do think there is a distinction between the political question of how open the doors should be and the security one of how many checks you should do before someone gets access to national positions and all that entails in terms of lists etc. Even in the days before the doors were thrown open in recruitment terms it was always a bit frightening how quickly anyone who showed enthuasiasm would be invited into the national office to do Marxism mailings etc with ready access to membership details. This at the same time as we were also being asked to come and sleep in the centre over night because the nazis had threatened to attack it! Although ultimately how much can a socialist group do to defend itself against someone determined and talented enough?

The last point is a fair question - but surely the answer in this case is more - more than was done to check out these characters - which on the face of it seems to be nothing, zilch. The fact that it's probably impossible to 100% get rid of this activity shouldn't really be used as an excuse to fail to follow min standards in specfic cases (i don't think you were actually trying to do that mind - i can see others picking up the argument though...).

 

[levien]

The article also claims they were involved in AFA - Do you know anything about this smash?

QUOTE]

No it dosen't. The AFA reference is about Searchlight trying to set up some sort flag of convenience (son of AFA) off the back of the publication of 'No Retreat' book. The authors had both been expelled form AFA over a decade previously.

No it doesn't. It refers to something else. Most of the article is either misreported or out right fiction. I would ignore any specific refs tbh.

 

[butchersapron]

The article also claims they were involved in AFA - Do you know anything about this smash?

QUOTE]

No it dosen't. The AFA reference is about Searchlight trying to set up some sort flag of convenience (son of AFA) off the back of the publication of 'No Retreat' book. The authors had both been expelled form AFA over a decade previously.

There also seems to be some confusion over claimed activities in No Retreat and future activities of this proposed group.

 

[butchersapron]

"If anyone in either branch is worried contact the party"

Who's gonna answer the phone?

 

[silentNate]

Does anyone know what type of checks they use if you try to join the BNp?

 

[levien]

Using this as a way of attacking the SWP is low butchers. Esp when several posters here knew them personally.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Whilst this does raise legitimate questions about security has anyone got any hard evidence whatsoever that any of this is true? I've also met the accused two may a time and worked with them on antifash stuff and am convinced it's an absolute lie. it seems to me that it's just the BNP playing a shit game of throwing mud to cause paranoia and confusion. However, it is as well to take issues of security extrremely seriously and of course any allegation should be treated seriously and indeed we whould be extremely careful about giving personal details to anyone when involved in antifash work.

However, until proven otherwise we should absolutely not indulge in rumour mongering or viscious gossip. I'm sure it's totally unfounded- if anyone has any evidence then come forward otherwise stop spreading their crap, I would say.

 

[butchersapron]

Worth a Hmm...?

 

[cockneyrebel]

Um..access to membrship listscfor one - all kinds of other info. I cannot believe that you are being so naive over this.

This is what is worrying. Levien seems to suggest this doesn’t really matter, but to the people who have had their personal details revealed to fascists I should think it would be very worrying.

enthusiasm is often valued over and above political nouse.

This is also what should be worrying for the SWP. While it is very important not to get paranoid about this kinda thing the SWP recruitment policy (I once saw someone signed up for being “angry”!!) leaves them open for this. Firstly there is the issue of democracy in terms of why should someone have a vote/say on the way forward in the SWP if they know fuck all about the SWPs politics and what they’re about. Do SWPers think that is right? Secondly while it would be very hard to stop fascists (and even more so the state) infiltrating an organisation, do SWPers not find it a madness that these people were promoted and given personal information so quickly? I can’t imagine contacts or members being very pleased.

My experience in the SWP (I was in it for two and a half years) was like bolshiebhoys in terms of I found it worrying how easily personal info was accessed and how easily someone got “promoted” to positions of prominence. In a wannabe revolutionary party enthusiasm should not be the most important thing, political knowledge should be IMO, although obviously enthusiasm is important. That alone would make fascist infiltration much harder.

Lastly I have every sympathy with soli and the others in Manchester. People I know in Manchester are shocked. It’s a madness that it went on for a year. However I hope the SWP can learn some lessons from this….

I think the tone of some of the people on here is totally out of order……

 

[butchersapron]

Using this as a way of attacking the SWP is low butchers. Esp when several posters here knew them personally.

As i said:

(And i have no doubt that you'll dissmiss these questions and other posters points as sectarian gloating)

Which is why i've done nothing of the sort.

 

[redsquirrel]

As soom one named in the article perhaps people will listerned to me on this one. I'm going to say very little as its our internal issue and frankly non off your business. I'm also going to ask SWP members not to post on this issue yet for obvious reasons.

What a load of bollocks of course this concerns other people -ex members, people who might be thinking of joining, people who work with the SWP etc, not to mention the fack it raises the general issue of infiltration of groups by far right groups or the state.

 

[cockneyrebel]

In terms of whether it is true or not I haven't accessed the BNP site (won't from here) but apparently there are pictures there. That should be the proof it that's true....

 

[General Ludd]

As soom one named in the article perhaps people will listerned to me on this one. I'm going to say very little as its our internal issue and frankly non off your business.

That's bollocks. It's of concern to anyone who might work with the SWP, has worked with the SWP, was/is/could be a member and just about anyone else vaguelly interested in the left.

 

[HST]

Can't say I've read the whole thread but I've met a few people who've been on fascist hit lists for years - they're all still walking around. It's not like the brownshirts will turn up tomorrow to do you. British fash are at most going to do low level harassment - shit through your letterbox, bricking your windows or something. It's not nice to be targetted - but you can survive it. What they want is for you to stop being an active anti-fascist (obvious I know). What'll really screw them is if you become twice the anti-fascist you were before. Solidarity forever.

 

[oisleep]

In terms of whether it is true or not I haven't accessed the BNP site (won't from here) but apparently there are pictures there. That should be the proof it that's true....

yeah, one with the two of them in the middle of GG and LG, then another with the pair of them in the middle of Nick Griffin and Tony Wentworth

 

[urbanrevolt]

yeah, but I haven't seen this. I apreciate it can't be linked up here but can someone PM me the link? On the level of threat if a groupm was infiltrated I think we can't be too careful. Of course, a lot of the fash are into intimidation pure and simple- I've been on their web site and I've never been hit BUT I know people who have- mainly Asians with windows bricked in, cars smashed up, physical attacks and a firebombing of a house. None of that's to say we should be intimidated but neither should we be blase.

 

[blamblam]

For proof without seeing the BNP site, see this former page of manc uni SWSS

http://www.uniservity.net/club_homepage.asp?clubid=5334

edited to add and of course it concerns everyone you plonker - lots of us bought tickets to marxism with home addresses etc. on. Not that it's that big a deal at the mo cos British fascists are pathetic wusses but still...

 

[our-streets]

fuckin hell!

... "it was political not personal"

 

[flimsier]

fuckin hell!

... "it was political not personal"

I read that.

I was almost livid for the people it was aimed at. She must have not been able to hate them all.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Shit- that does seem pretty conclusive! Fuck, well it's just makes all the points about security worth reiterating and implementing if it hasn't been done so already.

 

[cockneyrebel]

putting xxx at the end was a fucking piss take.....

It will be a madness on campus next year I should think.....

They look like a couple of social misfits to me.....what the fuck is that shirt and tie!

PS If the BNP did get 1,800 people to their RWB festival that is very worrying.....