fascist infiltration of the left

[flimsier]

pc: I think you have to allow him the fact that he's just discovered something about mates of his - rather than twist the knife (probably not your intention, but maybe the effect).

It's also presently based on a bnp article.

 

[flimsier]

sorry, but why does this mark a 'new low'? they seem to have actually revealed, and done, fuck all, apart from make some people feel personally stupid and betrayed. that's pretty fucking minor as consequences of fascism go!

we do it to them, they do it to us. can't rightfully complain about their trying.

I don't think it has any real effect, other than to really piss off some people who felt they became friends with these people.

Hence soly's reply, no?

 

[Solidarnosc]

Well, maybe you're right, but they must have been really good. But on a personal level I do sense a deep level of betrayal. Might sound cheesy but it's the truth. They actually managed to gain a high level of political respect in the SWP, managed to get elected to conference, got senior positions in Respect etc. Personally, like I say, I counted these people as my friends, and the end score is that I've been let down. Badly.

 

[past caring]

flimsier - I made no comment on his feeling "betrayed". That's understandable and fair enough. I commented on the "new low" thing only (which he's since edited out).

 

[butchersapron]

pc: I think you have to allow him the fact that he's just discovered something about mates of his - rather than twist the knife (probably not your intention, but maybe the effect).

It's also presently based on a bnp article.

Sorry flims, but this ain't getting swept under as a human interest story.There's more here...and you know this.

 

[belboid]

Of course you do, Sol. But maybe you should also feel angry about how it was allowed to happen.

 

[flimsier]

BA: I'm genuinely missing it, sorry.

 

[flimsier]

Of course you do, Sol. But maybe you should also feel angry about how it was allowed to happen.

You also have to reflec that it 'could' happen to anyone.

 

[past caring]

There's more here...and you know this.

One avenue to pursue might be to ask solidarnosc how convinving he might feel they are in their "real" role as boot-boys and thugs......

 

[butchersapron]

BA: I'm genuinely missing it, sorry.

Really? I don't know how - but i'll take your word for it. You don't get what this means?

 

[past caring]

You also have to reflec that it 'could' happen to anyone.

Could it?

 

[Solidarnosc]

Of course you do, Sol. But maybe you should also feel angry about how it was allowed to happen.

Well that goes without saying. But what can you do? Should we suspect that everyone who joins the SWP is really a BNP infiltrator? I've advocated for a long time the end to the lassiez-faire attitude the SWP has to recruitment, and that the SWP should establish a political relationship with someone before they recruit them.

Hopefully there will be a full and frank discussion. But, if they were determined enough, then what in reality could the SWP do? Like you say, the 'left' has infiltrated the BNP and they have a fairly rigid membership proceedure.

 

[belboid]

You also have to reflec that it 'could' happen to anyone.

that they could join in with activities? yes, of course that could happen to aanyone. that they gained sorta prominent ppositions? on the basis of the politics in the things posted and that i've found....well, it seems to be very very basic angry shouty stuff that i can imagine them having a right laugh concocting. Strikes me as the old stroy of pushing people simply because they are 'keen', like PC said.

 

[flimsier]

Really? I don't know how - but i'll take your word for it. You don't get what this means?

Maybe I've drank too much.

Can you spell it out. I'm not taking the piss. You think it means the SWP are just too enthusiastic with anyone?

 

[Solidarnosc]

Maybe I've drank too much.

Can you spell it out. I'm not taking the piss. You think it means the SWP are just too enthusiastic with anyone?

Not with the two mentioned. But I'm keeping mum for the moment until it has been brought up inside the SWP.

 

[butchersapron]

Well that goes without saying. But what can you do? Should we suspect that everyone who joins the SWP is really a BNP infiltrator? I've advocated for a long time the end to the lassiez-faire attitude the SWP has to recruitment, and that the SWP should establish a political relationship with someone before they recruit them.

Hopefully there will be a full and frank discussion. But, if they were determined enough, then what in reality could the SWP do? Like you say, the 'left' has infiltrated the BNP and they have a fairly rigid membership proceedure.

So you accept that there could be checks on membership? You could carry out normal checks? There was a political decision not to.

 

[flimsier]

that they could join in with activities? yes, of course that could happen to aanyone. that they gained sorta prominent ppositions? on the basis of the politics in the things posted and that i've found....well, it seems to be very very basic angry shouty stuff that i can imagine them having a right laugh concocting. Strikes me as the old stroy of pushing people simply because they are 'keen', like PC said.

You and I both know that prominent positions are not 'gained' by letters but by activity mainly and secondarily the contributions and influence day to day.

An article/ review/ letter never mattered a jot in my experience.

 

[butchersapron]

Maybe I've drank too much.

Can you spell it out. I'm not taking the piss. You think it means the SWP are just too enthusiastic with anyone?

OK, that will pass for now. Yep, that was what i was saying.

 

[flimsier]

So you accept that there could be checks on membership? You could carry out normal checks? There was a political decision not to.

There's no checks carried out. In terms of the actual situation, it ain't that bad imo.

What difference does it make, other than give the fash a laugh?

 

[flimsier]

OK, that will pass for now. Yep, that was what i was saying.

But I don't think that is a bad thing, necessarily. Do you think there should be a membership test?

 

[Solidarnosc]

So you accept that there could be checks on membership? You could carry out normal checks? There was a political decision not to.

No, what I said was that we should get to know someone first before we ask them to join. I never advocated checks on membership, and it's right that we don't. Not to prevent infiltrators - this is the first case of the SWP being infiltrated that I know of - but, more importantly, to make sure that we are recruiting people who are serious about joining a revolutionary socialist party.

 

[butchersapron]

There's no checks carried out. In terms of the actual situation, it ain't that bad imo.

What difference does it make, other than give the fash a laugh?

Um..access to membrship listscfor one - all kinds of other info. I cannot believe that you are being so naive over this.

 

[belboid]

You and I both know that prominent positions are not 'gained' by letters but by activity mainly and secondarily the contributions and influence day to day.

An article/ review/ letter never mattered a jot in my experience.

no of course not (except they articles and letters are printed from people who they want to 'promote' to an extent), i'm just surmising quite a bit about them from what was written and my experience of how it would be really easy to play the eager new recruit -simply by being active, turning up for meetings and paper sales, saying you'd sold a few papers - and how that would lead on to conference, positions in the campaigning groups etc

 

[butchersapron]

No, what I said was that we should get to know someone first before we ask them to join. I never advocated checks on membership, and it's right that we don't. Not to prevent infiltrators - this is the first case of the SWP being infiltrated that I know of - but, more importantly, to make sure that we are recruiting people who are serious about joining a revolutionary socialist party.

Well, your checks don't fucking work do they? Nothing worked.

So sell me those checks once more.

 

[butchersapron]

But I don't think that is a bad thing, necessarily. Do you think there should be a membership test?

You shoild know fascist twats when they try and join....

 

[belboid]

this is the first case of the SWP being infiltrated that I know of

there have been umpteen! a sun reporter during the miners strike springs to mind. and a bloke from the daily mail tried to join my branch after joy gardener was killed (most of us spotted him, he got a crap story).

For a leninist organisation the SWP is incredibly liberal in its recruitment.

 

[Solidarnosc]

butchersapron - No checks. Period.

Belboid - key phrase - that I know of - and you're right, the recruitment should be tightend.

 

[butchersapron]

No checks. Period. - says it all really.

 

[belboid]

a year is deffo the longest i've ever heard of

 

[past caring]

An article/ review/ letter never mattered a jot in my experience.

This simply isn't true. When I was young and "keen" I was encouraged to take positions within the branch/district - and also encouraged to write letters to the paper. It was those seen as "having a future" that were particularly encouraged.

In my experience, and I'm not saying this to have a pop at the SWP, it's just an honest assessment - "enthusiasm" is often valued over and above political nouse. Because it means that you might be more easily pursuaded to spend hours on the phone hectoring the membership to go on a demo/papersale/ to Marxism without questioning. Political education is something which concentrates almost exclusively on SWP literature, rather than wider theory - even within the Leninist/Trotskyist tradition - and it happens for a reason.

There's no checks carried out. In terms of the actual situation, it ain't that bad imo.

What difference does it make, other than give the fash a laugh?

Well, if the BNP are this bunch of unreconstructed nazi boot-boys/thugs that the SWP and the ANL would have us believe, I'd have thought it makes quite a lot of difference.

These two will certainly have the names and addresses for most of the Manchester region. If they were on the organising team for Marxism it's quite likely they'll have had access to details of quite a few other areas as well. And these won't all be SWP members will they? I'd have thought non-members might feel quite let down by the SWP at the prospect that their details were now with the BNP..........