TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
I dont know. That stuff about the left alienating people, seems to ring a bell.
btw, well done, on another engaging post.
Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?
- Thread starter CyberRose
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I dont know. That stuff about the left alienating people, seems to ring a bell.
btw, well done, on another engaging post.Not completely true, the scale of mass migration has a bearing on public concern as well. I still find leftists supporting what is basically a neo-liberal economic measure somewhat baffling, but again so much of thier ideas are based on the 19th C, before modern communications, transport, etc now means half the globe can move around and capital can shift labour at will.
Well quite. If you’re “enlightened” enough to believe in socialism’s moral appeal, you’re not going to be competing with cheap foreign labour. Game over really. Then, there's a fair number of people who just object to immigration through normal everyday xenophobia. It’s not as if they’re obliged to love their street being turned into “a foreign country” as some of ‘em put it. Having said that, the immigration is really an EU based problem, non-EU immigration is tough enough innit.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/48568...ht-bnp-in-the-european-elections?DCMP=NLC-dai
had it about right
immigration cheap polish plumbers and ethnic restaurants bupa and private schools rah
wearing a union jack your a fascist
had it about right
immigration cheap polish plumbers and ethnic restaurants bupa and private schools rah
wearing a union jack your a fascist
Yeah well. Let’s just say there was an anti-EU, social conservative, economically left wing party that bribes its way into power with an attempt to protect British jobs from foreign competition with nationalisation and cradle-to-grave welfarism. Where would that put us? Back to the 70’s, like some macabre carousel.
ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
An important part of the truth.
We used to have a party on the left that had a mass membership, and a democratic structure that allowed that membership a reasonable input into policy making and overall control of the shape of party policy. Its membership sold it out to a group of activists who wanted to prevent any input that wasn't thoroughly vetted to ensure it was acceptable to the editors of the tabloids.
The rest of the left was already a set of smaller groups closely moulded round a fairly specific ideology or leadership clique. It hasn't changed.
We now have no political party that actually allows ordinary working people to even air their concerns within the policy making structure, at least not openly. The question is whether there is sufficient desire to create or recreate a genuinely democratic party of the left, or whether nobody is willing to deal with any form of politics that might upset Daily Mail readers.
The first thing ALL of us have to accept is that to make anything happen in real politics requires either fanaticism, compromise or complete ruthless amorality. We've got plenty of the first and the last in British politics. Are there enough people on the left prepared to compromise their ideals enough to form a genuinely democratic alternative?
On the contrary. That’s rather the matter to hand. A populist left would really not be the left at all. More a (even more) socially conservative 70’s throwback version of itself.
Seeing as most seem to aspire to be like Posh and Becks, or the Heff, or whatever, it's difficult to see how they could do otherwise and remain of the left to be honest. I imagine most aspire to be untroubled by competition from cheap foreign labour, so in that regard at least they provide a role model. Ha ha.
good point. I say they all give up and support/join the greens, having a load of insignificant parties is a complete waste of time for all concerned.
Yes, of course it is. People on differennt continents, or even within continents, vary in their thinking due to a whole variety of cultural, historical and religious differences
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
NAMBLA?
goosegrease
Cheap fish products here
And that's the root of the left's problems. We're just a bunch of wankers.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Politicians do not/cannot listen to ordinary people - period. I think that the left comes off a lot worse b/c it cannot pay for MORI/GALLUP polls. No one really cares what is happening in the Westminister Village. The assumption is that they (the MPs) are taking care of themselves and climbing up the greasy pole.
The "left" and "liberals" should all be shot. I don't know what the former are on about and I don't care about the latter. I'm a black dude and will throw a punch in the face of __anyone__ that wants to fight <insert> right on cause </insert> on my behalf.
I'd be even more anti-wiberal if I were white! Tell me if I am wrong but I get the feeling that the policies that these wiberals throw around will mystically not apply to their kids in schools.
The "left" and "liberals" should all be shot. I don't know what the former are on about and I don't care about the latter. I'm a black dude and will throw a punch in the face of __anyone__ that wants to fight <insert> right on cause </insert> on my behalf.
I'd be even more anti-wiberal if I were white! Tell me if I am wrong but I get the feeling that the policies that these wiberals throw around will mystically not apply to their kids in schools.
Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns? Nope
They're at full voice as well when the topic turns to welfare reforms or civil liberties. But are these issues the working class actually give two shits about? Actually your very wrong here cyberose.
They're at full voice as well when the topic turns to welfare reforms or civil liberties. But are these issues the working class actually give two shits about? Actually your very wrong here cyberose.
I have to agree and this also my take on things. I respect and understand the POV of old school hardleft posters like Butchers on this issue. All I would say is that IMO there is a massive blurring of idealogical boundries between younger lefties/liberals, which feeds into this idea that 'they are all the same' which is down to the overwhelming middleclass nature of politics these days.
Guardian readers think they are liberal and some probablty think they are lefties however anyone can see how the gaurdian is just as guilty of acting in its own class interests and neo-con economics.I direct those of you who disagree to a recent editorial which basically argued in favour of increased NHS privitisation!
Back to the main point RE the political gulf, this IMO is a result of low social mobility and corperate mid managment arsholes running most unions thesedays, who have sat back while newshamebore did some truely fucked up things. The question of classbased cultural differences, such as the use of language also plays a part in this.
If you compare No2eu and Arthur scargils socialists to the swapys anarchists liberals and even greens, then i think the demographics involved in terms of class, gender, race and age will sadly bear out this increasing gap.
Something to bear in mind about welfare reform. There's about 5 or 6 million out of work (incl disabled benefits) and they don't like being treated like beggars in an Oliver Twist film.
Wonder how many of those voted Labour?
Very very few i would think when you have (or had!) loons like Purnell around.
Wonder how many of those voted Labour?
Very very few i would think when you have (or had!) loons like Purnell around.
I disagree with this whole idea of the working class being hostile to those on benefits espeically as a lot of working class people if we use this term are on benefits anyway ( tax credits etc) , its the idea of people getting things that theyare not ( housing ) which pissess people off and feeds the far right.Anyway the majority of Media output is market orienated towards ABC1S
revol68
what, fucking what?
No they share the same fundamental interest, this of course than see them pitting their respective working class against each others. It's like how all fast food bosses share an interest in keep wages low whilst at the same time they are obviously in competition with each other.
It's not difficult stuff this.
It's actually a lot more difficult than you are prepared to concede. Ultimately, international capital shares the same interests but they are in constant conflict too. Only today Russia has taunted the EU countries about controlling their gas supplies, for example.
As I said, they've even been known to fight wars against each other.
revol68
what, fucking what?
reading backwards I dealt with your point about bosses first, so let me reiterate the point form a proletarian perspective.
Don't workers share a fundamental common interest in higher wages and less hours despite being working in different restraunt chains, having different religions (or none), different groups of friends, tastes and nationality?
Isn't the the most central organisng force in the everyday life of proletarians all around the world, capital, not allah or jesus, their race or nationality and infact these ideologies only serve to pit workers against each other?
These are the very basics of internatioanlism and class struggle politics that need to be reasserted, not watered down or given up in order to appeal to the populism of the time. Without these principles there is fuck all point having influence or being relevant.
revol68
what, fucking what?
How does my answer stand in contradiction to this? Two business owners could hire goons to torch each other sites yet they still share a fundamental interest in lowering wages etc.
The workers of said business should of course reject any attempts to pit them against their fellow workers in the other business as it only serves their respective bosses.
revol68
what, fucking what?
In the case of the EU what you are seeing is a load of independent business owners coming together to increase their strength, this ofcourse doesn't mean they don't have little fallouts or haggle for greater influence within the common enterprise but instead these are meant to happen within the common structures so as to present a united face to rest of the market.
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