I don't think you are very coherent there. I don't know what you are saying in response to my post.
Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?
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I don't think you are very coherent there. I don't know what you are saying in response to my post.
The working class don't understand what they themselves want. Indeed, the applicability of what a class or group "wants" is called into question by contemporary political science.
About 20% of them might. A question of personality. It's not as if those three things even mean the same thing within the niche that aspires to 'em.
revol68
what, fucking what?
I'm saying that we can't try and get anywhere by raising this or that seemingly reasonable demand as to how capitalism should be managed, but instead be driving home the point that unless we aim our politics beyond the horizon of what is possible in capitalism (whilst of course struggling within it) we will always be lead into sectionalism, either between employed and unemployed, race, nationality and so on.
Also the other point was that we need to move beyond rhetoric of jobs not dole, as many yoing people, infact the most rebellious hate work and do everything to skiv from it and avoid it. As such issues around benefits and unemployment are as important.
I agree with you there.
This is where I am not sure what you mean. Your first paragraph doesn't really follow to the second one. The first one is the key surely? The second one is a symptom of the neo-liberal (modern capitalist) system. Which is supported by all the main parties.
Why is that do you think?
revol68
what, fucking what?
No the second point is connected to the fact that plenty of the left raise slogans like 'Jobs not Dole', y'know seeking to have capital managed in such a way as create jobs rather than simply accepting unemployment and fighting over benefits. This tied to the first point in that 'jobs not dole', 'protect british jobs' etc imply that capitalism can be managed in such a way as to deliver this. Don't get me wrong though, I support workers fighting against lossing their jobs, I just think reality shows that demands based on staying in work need to be expanded upon, with laid off workers making social and political demands on the state to provide a standard of living, rather than lining up behind demands to protect 'british industry'.
revol68
what, fucking what?
because work is shit and the ideological muck of the work ethic is being more and more eroded as jobs become more and more removed from the production of real tangiable things or servies of use to people rather than simply in expanding capital.
Essentially the nature of capital as expanding for it's own sake regardless of human needs is becoming increasingly clear.
Sorry, what is the context? If it's a defence of the left, one can only wonder on what grounds. Perhaps it's the core principles which are themselves doomed as far as the working class is concerned, because the working class are in political advance of their supposed liberators.
revol68
what, fucking what?
are you referring to me?
I do think there are tendencies and developments within the working class that whilst at the moment are not articulated or explicit are certainly way ahead of the left, especially those groups that call for jobs not dole, or who talk about defending British Industry.
The context?
The British people would do better to recognise that they are being ripped off by the current neo-liberal capitalist system and find an alternative. Which none of the current parties will do.
revol68
what, fucking what?
People who live in Britain like me. I should have said the UK people though.
revol68
what, fucking what?
and all these people share a same interest do they, against neo liberalism?
Those who aren't rich and powerful.
revol68
what, fucking what?
and is this interest different for people in France, Ireland, USA, Japan, India, China etc?
No.
revol68
what, fucking what?
and is the interest of the ruling rich and powerful in the UK fundamentally differrent from those of the US, China, Iran, France etc?
Connect the dots and what you get is the interests of the proletariat against those of capital or rather it's administrators and the various other stratas with an interest in maintaining it.
British doesn't come into it, it's just reactionary shit.
goosegrease
Cheap fish products here
I gave up on the organised left a while ago, partly because I could never understand how they related to the concerns of ordinary people. I was in the S.P for nearly 10 years and flirted with anarchism in my teens, cards on the table.
When the left talk of "the working class" it always seems to be from the point of view of looking down from above. As if the Marxist/Revolutionary knows the truth and the working class has to be taught from experience and education of their potential power. Or persuaded to fight to put Marxists in power. Other, more life style or middle class strands just seem to dismiss class out of hand and go about making a nucence of them selves and call it protest.
I've started attending some local demos again, but standing on the outside and looking at them as the average person does. It frankly looks stupid, a bunch of self rightous loonies making a noise about something or other. Most folk just get on with their shopping and forget about it once the roads re open.
The BNP have been building up their profile for years, yet hardly anyone who agrees with their leaflets and expresses support/votes for them actually know what they stand for. Most folk I've spoke to just feel they've been undermined or put out of a job by cheap immigrant labour, and/or remember all the anti Muslim hysteria and feel angry that an aggressive, outside force is threatening them. Do they know that non-whites are barred? Do they know the criminal records of many of their members? Do they know the history of that organisation? On the whole no but the BNP are telling many white working class folk what they want hear. Patient and sympathetic discussion is needed in relation to the BNP.
Critical mass bike rides or standing outside the town hall waving "assylum seekers welcome here" banners does nothing to help the left (nor assylum seekers either for that matter).
When the left talk of "the working class" it always seems to be from the point of view of looking down from above. As if the Marxist/Revolutionary knows the truth and the working class has to be taught from experience and education of their potential power. Or persuaded to fight to put Marxists in power. Other, more life style or middle class strands just seem to dismiss class out of hand and go about making a nucence of them selves and call it protest.
I've started attending some local demos again, but standing on the outside and looking at them as the average person does. It frankly looks stupid, a bunch of self rightous loonies making a noise about something or other. Most folk just get on with their shopping and forget about it once the roads re open.
The BNP have been building up their profile for years, yet hardly anyone who agrees with their leaflets and expresses support/votes for them actually know what they stand for. Most folk I've spoke to just feel they've been undermined or put out of a job by cheap immigrant labour, and/or remember all the anti Muslim hysteria and feel angry that an aggressive, outside force is threatening them. Do they know that non-whites are barred? Do they know the criminal records of many of their members? Do they know the history of that organisation? On the whole no but the BNP are telling many white working class folk what they want hear. Patient and sympathetic discussion is needed in relation to the BNP.
Critical mass bike rides or standing outside the town hall waving "assylum seekers welcome here" banners does nothing to help the left (nor assylum seekers either for that matter).
except that, back in the real world, it does come into it for a substantial number of British people.
It does come into it though. You might as well say there isn't such thing as Britain.
Now thats self defeating.
such as?
revol68
what, fucking what?
It comes into in so much as nationalism is deeply ideolgoical engrained, as such it comes into it in the sense it needs crticised.
There isn;t such a thing as Britain, there is a political entity but there is no organic unity of the people within it's sphere.
Northern Ireland shows the futility of nationalism.
While that may be true, it doesn't address the fact that many British people do identify themselves as such and do recognise Britain as an entity. If you dismiss this so lightly, then there's little chance of engaging with such people. Which after all is what this thread is asking.
I can't argue. Country isn't the most important thing.
However I think Britain is a country and should remain so.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Well I'm one of those people who believes in honesty, so I'm not going to hold back and pretend nationalism is fine and i'm certainly not going to support reactionary shit like the No2EU wank with it's defend british industry and sovereignity shit.
And not ot be rude but nationalism is a bit more of a big deal in northern ireland and yet I don't feel the need to patronise people by avoiding criticising it as a pile of shite. Then again we have two competing nationalism so the choice is choose one or dismiss both. Can you guess which one is more useful for working class struggle?
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