revol68
what, fucking what?
I can't argue. Country isn't the most important thing.
However for whats its worth, I think Britain is a country and should remain so.
I think it should be wiped off the face of the earth with all other nationalisms.
Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?
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I think it should be wiped off the face of the earth with all other nationalisms.
All very well, but then how are you going to engage with those people who don't agree with you on this? Those who do want to defend British industry etc.
Again, that's what this thread is about.
Well you may be right.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Yes and of course you have to make your agument as to why defending 'british industry' is about tying you to the interests of your bosses and pitting you against workers around the world.
How would defend british industry go down in Northern Ireland?
Me? It's not my argument. I'm playing devil's advocate here to a certain extent. I just think you're out of touch with the real world if you think such political rhetoric about nationalism is going to change the minds of those who disagree with you.
As I've said this thread is about engaging with 'the working class' (whoever they might be) and on the evidence so far I don't think you're doing a very good job of it.
revol68
what, fucking what?
I was referring to myself in the you.
I don't think i'm out of touch with the real world I think I've got a critique of the ideology of nationalism. What would have livening in the real world meant for a Belfast Anarchist group, not criticisng the nationalism or unionism whilst they tore the working class apart?
Again, such as?
revol68
what, fucking what?
sorry I missed your question int he midst of the nationalism one.
Well for a start I think many young people already have a hate for work and do all they can to avoid it, whilst much of the left demands more jobs not doel, these young people are seeking to work the system in manner to get by without having to work 40 hrs a week in a minimum wage job.
I also think alot of people feel a deep lose of meaning to their lives and resent the monotany of the 9 to5 working week etc. Infact this was one of the forces that has driven temp agencies, it wasn't a simple matter of capital imposing it but rather of capital reacting to recapturing many peoples desire for more change and variety, of not being tied to a job for life. This isn't something that can be met with more job security or higher wages, let alone Tommy fucking Sheridans hilarious £7 an hour call centre socialist utopia.
Other areas are that thousands of young people go out and mix in Belfast every night with no care for the national question in any great sense, it is irelevant to them and yet muh of the irish left is still wanking on about ending british imperialism in ireland.
I'm sure if I sat down and gave it proper structured thought I could bring up many exampels from everday life that show the redundancy of much of the lefts rhetoric and political programme.
You're not being very coherent there, especially that last sentence. (Are you pissed?
) By 'out of touch with the real world' I mean you discuss things in a way that is not relevant/meaningful to most people, I mean, 'a critique of the ideology of nationalism' is not really language that is going to make the average man in the street sit up and listen. And that a lot of the issues you raise aren't going to grab his attention either.
Do you really think 'the working class' give a fuck about nationalism or any other -ism you might care to name? Most people I've met, of whatever class, are aspirational, they want the best for themselves and their families. They don't seem in the slightest bit interested in any ideology (as they see it), they just want to get on with their lives. Many of those who could be identified as 'working class' (if you want to define them in any way, which I don't btw) would be offended by the term.
So, how would you engage with them? Hint: 'Hello I'm from Belfast Anarchist Group' probably wouldn't be a good start. A turn-off straight away I would imagine.
I'm off to bed now, but i'd be interested to hear how you would go about engaging with such people - but without reference to any political theory, -isms, or Marx, Kropotkin or anyone else. Because I don't think many people, in the real world, actually give a toss about such stuff, in Britain at least.
1.3 million people voted Green (8.7%) versus 943,598 voting BNP (6.2%)
(not sure how we can settle the 'class' of these voters, but in London for example the GP gets a lot of support in inner London boroughs like Lambeth, Southwark, Lewisham, Camden, Islington and Hackney)
goosegrease
Cheap fish products here
There is no simple answer. Ever heard the term "employment racist"?. I guy who I was discussing issues around immigrant workers used the phrase to me.
Arguing for a program of nationalisation and increased funding in education to bring about an economy where people can expect skilled, well paid and stable jobs seems to make sense to me in the long run.
In the here and now though there are people who genuinely feel they are being undermined by cheap immigrant labour. I useualy ask these people what they think deporting forign workers would acheve? If the bosses cant import the labour they will either export the jobs are force benefit claimants to fill roles with crap pay and conditions. The logical out come to this argument is that control of the labour market and of wages and working conditions needs to be taken from the bosses and organised by the workers themselves reguardless of their national back ground.
But then there is no organisation to give expression to this.
revol68
what, fucking what?
You're not being very coherent there, especially that last sentence. (Are you pissed?
By 'out of touch with the real world' I mean you discuss things in a way that is not relevant/meaningful to most people, I mean, 'a critique of the ideology of nationalism' is not really language that is going to make the average man in the street sit up and listen. And that a lot of the issues you raise aren't going to grab his attention either.
Do you really think 'the working class' give a fuck about nationalism or any other -ism you might care to name? Most people I've met, of whatever class, are aspirational, they want the best for themselves and their families. They don't seem in the slightest bit interested in any ideology (as they see it), they just want to get on with their lives. Many of those who could be identified as 'working class' (if you want to define them in any way, which I don't btw) would be offended by the term.
So, how would you engage with them? Hint: 'Hello I'm from Belfast Anarchist Group' probably wouldn't be a good start. A turn-off straight away I would imagine.
I'm off to bed now, but i'd be interested to hear how you would go about engaging with such people - but without reference to any political theory, -isms, or Marx, Kropotkin or anyone else. Because I don't think many people, in the real world, actually give a toss about such stuff, in Britain at least.
so basically your point is that the mass of working class people aren't explicitly interested in politics or political theory as discussed on here?
that's something that every political party, group and ideology is up against at the moment but it isn't some natural or eternal state of affairs. As to what we can do about it, well i'd suggeest very little, history doesn't work on the whim of this or that group. What we can do though is to atleast not fall into watering down our politics in an attempt to appeal to populism and instead be rigourous in our criticisms and self criticisms so that when or if conditions to change there will atleast be something there.
of course your use of the 'real world' is a fucking joke, because in the real world the bosses don't give a fuck about nationhood, only in so much as they can blind the proles with it.
A couple of points before I go:
I agree that many people resent the monotony of 9 to 5, but at the same time, many of those people also have a strong work ethic, they don't like the idea of others not working as hard as them (whether that's bosses or young people trying to avoid work) and don't actually object to the idea of work, just that the benefits are so unfairly distributed.
You'd know more about the people of Belfast than me, but I don't believe nationalism is irrelevant to them. Sure, the issue of British imperialism maybe a dead duck, but for many I would imagine that they have a sense of patriotism and national pride. Certainly, any Irish event/festival (e.g., rugby matches) here in London brings out a lot of Irish patriotism. So I don't think you can dismiss this so easily.
And finally, why do you feel the need to show the 'redundancy of much of the lefts rhetoric and political programme'? That's very typical politics imo, slagging off the opposition. What's your alternative? That seems to be the question the electorate is asking - the BNP seemed to offer people answers (whether you agree with what they say or not), whereas the other parties just engaged in sniping and finger pointing at the opposition. If you want to engage with people, you need to move away from that surely?
In a nutshell, yes, does that surprise you? Some may be interested, but I suspect the majority aren't. Those who aren't, ime, wouldn't label themselves as 'working class' anyway. It's irrelevant to them. The world has moved on from that. People are aspirational, it's almost human nature.
Even if staying faithful to your politics makes you irrelevant to the majority of people?
Yes, true, but at the same time you have to accept that the 'bosses' accept the idea of nationhood/nationalism/whatever. I forget where I read it (No Logo?), but I recently read something about how some of the really successful corporations are not the multinationals who have a one-size-fits-all attitude to their presence in foreign countries, but the transnationals who tailor their presence to the local conditions (e.g., HSBC - 'the world's local bank' or something). Of course, some are generic around the globe (e.g., Nike, McDonalds) but these tend to be the ones who have strong aspirational brands.
It does suggest that nationalism is not as dead in the water as you may think - maybe it's something you need to consider if you're to engage with those you would seek to influence.
revol68
what, fucking what?
So if you don't think class struggle politics will ever be relevant to people why are you asking how various groups intend to make it so they are?
Taking a marxist approach to the issue I'd suggest that in the inevitbale struggle people will be forced to become politicised and that a rise in class struggle will lead to a rise in interest in wider politics, that people will look to connect the dots and begin to see themselves not as 'atomised individuals' but as part of a colllective, otherwise it will be the barbarism of all against all, either in the mundane everyday calousness of fucking each other over or in the more spectacular forms of nationalism, war or even race.
The Vistion workers in Belfast were certainly not all sitting round discussing Capital, but their fight did give them an education in solidairty and connecting their struggle to those outside their 'immediate interest'. They also learnt a vital lesson in not playing your hand too early, as the ones in England left their factories whne they should have stayed in like the Belfast ones and fundamentally it was this that shafted them.
chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
More 'Jobs for me and my friends. A job where I'm not exploited, endangered and insecure and where the boss doesn't get a million times what I do. A job with a pension. And I'm quite happy for foreigners and immigrants to have the same as long as it's as well as me, not instead'.
BNP don't bother with the last bit because it is secondary. Adding it to the promises wouldn't help them and would alienate their core, tiny, racist loony vote.
I have A level politics so clearly you should listen to me. And I have had fights with the BNP.
They won though.
revol68
what, fucking what?
I don't see the point of being relevant to people if to do so I become irrelvant to my original goal.
no nationalism is not dead in the water, it is just another commodity on the market, which is exactly how HSBC and the like treat it. The fact is though that it's a nationalism sold in the service of capital and little more, HSBC don't give a shit about anything other than profit.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Sorry capitalism doesn't work like that.
chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
I didn't say it did.
The question was about concerns of the working class, and the thread has gone a bit BNPish.
Left wing politics and extreme right politics are about changing things.
So, given that 'capitalism doesn't work like that' which is obvious to anyone, it is fair to expect anyone with a concern like that I described to look to the left or extreme right to get changes towards meeting those concerns.
'Capitalism doesn't work like that' = 'support groups who offer change' if you don't like what capitalism is delivering.
Anyway, I'm off to bed. This teetotal shite is ruining my posting.
The question was about concerns of the working class, and the thread has gone a bit BNPish.
Left wing politics and extreme right politics are about changing things.
So, given that 'capitalism doesn't work like that' which is obvious to anyone, it is fair to expect anyone with a concern like that I described to look to the left or extreme right to get changes towards meeting those concerns.
'Capitalism doesn't work like that' = 'support groups who offer change' if you don't like what capitalism is delivering.
Anyway, I'm off to bed. This teetotal shite is ruining my posting.
Oh please. You may as well postulate they should find an alternative to William Hill. Apart from the fact that William Hill actually exists, whereas the neo-liberal capitalist system is an imaginary left wing bogeyman.EddyBlack said:
Precisely.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
Eh?
The media have for years been getting the BNP members with their preaching of hatred and division. It is only because of the media that the working class is hostile to those on benefit - until, as Treelover says - they found out what that's actually like themselves.
left policies like the NHS, workers rights, nationalisation ARE popular, despite the media's attempts to make them not so.
one point someone made which is entirely correct is much of the left talks in riddles , showing off how many big words they can use and references to people and events from many years ago that the working class has never heard of while the BNP just says "we hate anyone different - vote for us"
The left needs to stand up and say "against greedy bosses, for workers rights, for the NHS , against privatisation, against job cuts"
The left needs to stand up and say "against greedy bosses, for workers rights, for the NHS , against privatisation, against job cuts"
The media is sickly sycophantic about all those things. The BBC is especially keen on nationalisation for obvious reasons. The tabloids constantly bang on about brave underpaid nurses. Show us something specific.trevhagl said:
Carousel said:
Seriously. It’s as if the defenders of the left are actually promoting nice versus naughty rather than a matter of actual collective action. The administrative and commercial strata gets food and fuel into the country, what do the left do? Whine into a load speaker about how unfair it all is. Big deal.Donna Ferentes said:
Maybe. But it also seems to be those most in favour of immigration occupying a strata of society in which the effects are felt the least outside of a wider selection of restaurants to patronise along with being able to buy cous-cous in the local shop.
The British people have been lied to about immigration. Its as simple as that. Just look at the 'predicitons' that the Government came out with prior to Poland coming into the EU. That was a straight forward deliberate lie.
Now I am in favour of immigration and thinking allowing unlimited access to the British jobs markets for the Poles was a step of sheer genius for all sorts of reasons but its not my job under pressure nor my kids having to accomadate non-English speakers into their classroom. People are entitled to oppose immigration and entitled to express those views. Those on the left seem intent on demonising anybody who does so and then throw their hands up in mock horror when people turn to parties such as the BNP.
Maybe if the left really listened to peoples concerns rather than trying to impose on them a political belief system that seems more based on a desire to experience a wider selection of food stuffs than economic realities they might not find themselves increasingly isolated from what is happening in Britain today.
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