Do you agree that the NHS should be privatised? - the Big Urban75 Poll
- Thread starter Brainaddict
- Start date
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
lots of bigamy in your family?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Liquidate the shitheads and re-educate the idiots?
Refused as fuck
"ethnic pakistani tosser"
If they need to think about it they're too far gone, frankly.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Fair enough. The lime-pits it is, then.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
If you need proof that this is the issue that could split/break the coalition, this story brought a smile to my face: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1391960/This-isnt-time-OR-place-row-NHS-Nick.html
Meanwhile Lansley has fucked up - again: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/may/28/andrew-lansley-u-turn-public-health-cuts
What this means is that we have to increase the pressure in every way possible on the NHS stuff - who knows what might be the straw to break Clegg's back...
Meanwhile Lansley has fucked up - again: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/may/28/andrew-lansley-u-turn-public-health-cuts
What this means is that we have to increase the pressure in every way possible on the NHS stuff - who knows what might be the straw to break Clegg's back...
hmm nice im a shithead then cause in my experience personal experience which formed my opinion that the NHS is failing and current system should be replaced. I might state to another good friend whose partner lost her baby also at said Royal Free hospital where she was stating I think there is something wrong but all the intelligensia were saying everything is fine IM SURE without checking just in case that she lost her baby as it strangled on its own chord as "C sections are more dangerous for baby and mother" rather than being routine request in all other european countries nothing to do with a standard birth costing NHS £750 pounds but a C section costs £2500 on average for then..cost obtained from one of your national newspapers. If you had asked me 10 years ago before I really needed some health issues and had several issues personally which made me re-access this then I would also be bleating on about keeping current system in place. But frankly as stated its fucked and its playing a lottery with your help I suppose I should had also stated red squirrel the term uncle in law denoting the no DNA but marital status of said uncle to my blood related aunt.
Then again Im only a paddy of course if I not trying to sell you some carpet Im knocking up a bit of tarmac I suppose or some such thing.
Liquidated ..eh I bet you couldn't even find your way of a paper bag you prick but when I well again feel free to PM to arrange a meet up to try..fucker
You know us Irish if we are not drunk all the time we are fighting etc. etc. Oh dear me I have formed my own experience based on personal tragedy and issues contrary to the herd...oh well I will survive Im sure it could be worse I could be some of the dickheads commenting to the others on this thread.
Life is good..bye
Then again Im only a paddy of course if I not trying to sell you some carpet Im knocking up a bit of tarmac I suppose or some such thing.
Liquidated ..eh I bet you couldn't even find your way of a paper bag you prick but when I well again feel free to PM to arrange a meet up to try..fucker
You know us Irish if we are not drunk all the time we are fighting etc. etc. Oh dear me I have formed my own experience based on personal tragedy and issues contrary to the herd...oh well I will survive Im sure it could be worse I could be some of the dickheads commenting to the others on this thread.
Life is good..bye
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You appear to have been conspicuously unfortunate in your experiences, slainte. But of course, the plural of anecdote is not data 
Condemn the NHS on data from its overall performance by all means, and the data is out there, but 'The NHS killed my mate's baby' doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.
Also, these issues are more complicated than you make out. For instance, you berate the NHS for not giving your friend a caesarian. But did you know that having had a caesarian in the past is itself a significant risk factor in stillbirths? Caesarians are far from risk-free procedures.
Condemn the NHS on data from its overall performance by all means, and the data is out there, but 'The NHS killed my mate's baby' doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.Also, these issues are more complicated than you make out. For instance, you berate the NHS for not giving your friend a caesarian. But did you know that having had a caesarian in the past is itself a significant risk factor in stillbirths? Caesarians are far from risk-free procedures.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
What the fuck are you on about?
Steel Icarus
we move
BigTom
Well-Known Member
You appear to have been conspicuously unfortunate in your experiences, slainte. But of course, the plural of anecdote is not data
I was about to say the same thing.. but I've got some data!
WHO Health rankings 2000 - UK = 18th, USA = 37th ..
Commonwealth Fund - ranked 7 countires, UK placed 2nd (behind Netherlands).. USA was 7th.. and costing more than twice as much..
I posted a detailed data set of health costs earlier in the thread. I'd also note that there was a large amount of investment (and fucking pfi scams) in the NHS post 2000 - It'd be nice to see a newer WHO comparison, I've no idea if one exists.
In any case, the question on this thread is not "can the NHS improve" because the answer to that is obviously yes. The question is "should it be privatised" and so if you say you want better healthcare the question to ask here is "will we get better healthcare with a privatised system".. and if we look to the USA, which is afaik the most privatised system of major western countries, then we find that outcomes are worse and costs (including cost to the taxpayer, and not just about costs to individuals) are higher..
Slainte, this is the kind of information you need to look at to judge the NHS.. there will always be bad experiences but regardless the NHS is one of the better systems in the world for patient outcomes, especially when compared to the amount of money spent on it.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Privatisation won't make the system any better, only proper funding from taxes will do that. Privatisation would mean far more babies dying.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I like that.
Me too. Not originally coined by me, unfortunately.
Hmm will consider your views but I have unfortunately formed my own from bad experience. With regard to c sections sorry but nearly all european countries offer this if wanted by the mother. The case in point was actually my own son regarding C section,my partner was in labour for nearly a week and a half no sleep that entire week plus and was so tired and her contractions not regular even when they gave her a drug to make it so it still wasnt a regular contraction rate...which didn't fit their one glove fits all approach so that they finally did the C section after trying the forceps etc. Many blunders but thankfully he is well and so is my partner. There is inherent risk with pregnancy full stop and a C section done in a modern hospital is no less safe than other birthing procedures which is why it is offered in Germany and other EU countries on request. Unfortunately for friends it wont bring back their child. I also have a permanent damaged muscle skeleton system due to incorrect fracture treatment here done by the NHS and nearly lost a finger ffs which was reset by a specialist in Berlin on a visit 2 weeks after it was "set" by Blighty NHS. Will have to look into checking current fracture and possible removal of screws and plates when time comes as its not "removed as standard" by the NHS.
My uncle in law is dead and wont be coming back anytime soon. I do know that the Torys fucked up the system with privatised cleaning companies in the 90's so again I don't believe that issues will go away just by privatisation my own view is the ridiculous amount of middle management and health driven only by cost factor rather than what is best for the patient. Like C section costing them typically £2500 rather than standard births costing £750....fine but if there is complications just do it and get on with it for the patient end of .
Quite willing to pay more tax if this was actually done etc. but it won't so I would in light of this would like to be given the means of lowering my NI contributions so I can divert and spend it on cover I source myself frankly. I know many people whom have had botched operations or treatments by the NHS and causing them long term ongoing issues and complications that in this age should be unacceptable its not free you are paying for it via your NI simple !
My uncle in law is dead and wont be coming back anytime soon. I do know that the Torys fucked up the system with privatised cleaning companies in the 90's so again I don't believe that issues will go away just by privatisation my own view is the ridiculous amount of middle management and health driven only by cost factor rather than what is best for the patient. Like C section costing them typically £2500 rather than standard births costing £750....fine but if there is complications just do it and get on with it for the patient end of .
Quite willing to pay more tax if this was actually done etc. but it won't so I would in light of this would like to be given the means of lowering my NI contributions so I can divert and spend it on cover I source myself frankly. I know many people whom have had botched operations or treatments by the NHS and causing them long term ongoing issues and complications that in this age should be unacceptable its not free you are paying for it via your NI simple !
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
Well privatisation has been hailed as the solution for the care of people with severe learning disabilities.
....oh, wait.............
....oh, wait.............
BigTom
Well-Known Member
Slainte, did you take a look at the rankings data I posted earlier? I wonder if you have thought about them at all.. both the US and Germany rank below the UK in both the WHO study from 2000 and the commonwealth study, as do many EU countries.. the WHO data being 10 or 11 years out of date is not so great as the commonwealth one, but both show that overall the NHS does a good job - better than Germany..
Are you able to step outside of your own experience to judge a system on how it performs as a whole?
If you are asking the question of how to improve the NHS so that your experiences are not repeated, can you consider that privatisation might not be the way to do it?
You mention that you want a system based on patient care not cost, but with private healthcare it is a system based on profit not patient care..
I don't think you could ever have a socialised health system without some degree of rationing involved, there has to be a judgement of where it is best to spend the money that is available. As you spend more money you reduce those decisions of course but they will still likely be there at some point.
I'd rather have a system where the limitations were on cost, judged by something like NICE as to the clinical outcomes against the cost of provision, rather than by a private company seeking profit.
Are you able to step outside of your own experience to judge a system on how it performs as a whole?
If you are asking the question of how to improve the NHS so that your experiences are not repeated, can you consider that privatisation might not be the way to do it?
You mention that you want a system based on patient care not cost, but with private healthcare it is a system based on profit not patient care..
I don't think you could ever have a socialised health system without some degree of rationing involved, there has to be a judgement of where it is best to spend the money that is available. As you spend more money you reduce those decisions of course but they will still likely be there at some point.
I'd rather have a system where the limitations were on cost, judged by something like NICE as to the clinical outcomes against the cost of provision, rather than by a private company seeking profit.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
C-section on demand - pioneered in the US for the sake of convenience.
In the EU some of the members (including the UK) are looking at minimising or even banning elective c-sections, partly because of the correlation to poor parent-child bonding, partly because of the physical damage it can cause.
All medical treatment, whether carried out by the NHS or not, has the possibility of "long term ongoing issues and complications". That's life.
_angel_
.
Are people still peddling this crap?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Are people still peddling this crap?
There appears to be a correlation in some cases, but it seems to be a minor issue. Horrible for the mother and child, but minor. That doesn't, of course, mean that health policy-makers won't use it as a lever to fulfil their own agendas, though.
_angel_
.
It doesn't make it the cause tho. It's like when this gets wheeled out as an argument against bottle feeding, even though you're still holding the baby just as closely as you would if you were breast feeding. Also implying that dads can never bond with their babies in the same way as mums.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The issue is not with c-sections on demand, but with the poor quality of support for normal birth, which leads to far more intervention than is necessary. The dramatic increase in c-sections with no correlated improvement in outcomes for the mothers or babies merely reflects the poor and worsening birth experience of most women in the UK.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
Obvious answer - never being given enough money to do the job in the first place, and with ministers constantly screaming at them to cut costs
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
From that:
This image should be staple-gunned to Cameron and Osborne's eyeballs. I know they still wouldn't give a fuck but it would be fun.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
Good article by Richard Blogger on False Economy
Some more sourced facts in the article about productivity:
The effect is that a good healthcare system means less sick days and therefore helps the private sector by providing a healthier workforce.
So don't take any of it if people tell you that productivity in the NHS is declining. In terms of cost vs output directly in the NHS it is - slowly, but the real productivity is rising. Also the fall in productivity directly is because of rising costs, and improving outputs (ie: patient health outcomes) have not got better as quickly, but have improved..
Some more sourced facts in the article about productivity:
The effect is that a good healthcare system means less sick days and therefore helps the private sector by providing a healthier workforce.
So don't take any of it if people tell you that productivity in the NHS is declining. In terms of cost vs output directly in the NHS it is - slowly, but the real productivity is rising. Also the fall in productivity directly is because of rising costs, and improving outputs (ie: patient health outcomes) have not got better as quickly, but have improved..
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
I couldn't see anything on survey size. Shame.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Apart from the methodology appendix that specifically covers this.
Similar threads
- Poll
