Do you agree that the NHS should be privatised? - the Big Urban75 Poll

[Streathamite]

I love plastic Oirishness. It's even more horribly kitsch than Bavarians being all folk-Bayerische.

ye gods that created an alarming image of Idris in lederhosen...

 

[slainte]

Hmm well lies damn lies and then statistics...interesting that said survey is over 11 years old..based on Y2k figures and does state that its too complex to maintain comparative figures. Interesting that even then if it was so simple things aren't like your voting systems..nice and simple !
So what can be deemed by that..just like i once read that APPARENTLY TFL run a better service than Berlin Metro in time keeping etc. tells me that the source of statistics gathering is wholly dependant on where you source your information on which vested interest drives it and what they want from the surveys. The fact is that Im sure really that many on here actually know someone also whom had absolute shit service from a service that they either needed or relied on as well as the glowing reports of how brillant it is.
Maybe it gets up peoples nose that a foreigner is critical of "their system" apparently as one Im not meant to comment or be critical no doubt even though I pay tax and NI as I live here work here etc.
In terms of Germany there is both a public and private insurance system in place where most take up some form of PRIVATE insurance system which can then be offset against your equivalent NI contributions.
This then frees physicians and staff to recommend fully treatments to patients rather than having toe the political line.
Such a system existed until recent times in the Irish republic where health system was means tested for a medical card but also one could take out private medical insurance and a demonstrable lifestyle such as healthy BMI etc. factored into lowering your RSI the Irish equivalent of NI contributions.
With regards to comments to ...thats life...Jesus aren't you a sympathetic individual possibly a manager in the NHS driving down costs by "better efficiency" controlling resources and all the other bollix spouted out. I hate that fucking atitude but maybe its some English thing I don't get. with regard to the NHS they often don't treat many "ailments"
Translation IF a condition could clear up by itself then it will not be treated AT ALL irrespective of length of time misery caused etc. which then forces people of limited income to try and get some sort of extra insurance just to fill the gap...which is the situation my partner finds herself in ,a condition I don't want to discuss on this board frankly and also "efficient" use of resources means that a fucking cleaner was taking a friends temperature when he had contracted malaria whilst travelling in Africa ended up in hospital here and said cleaner didn't get it right but LUCKILY he asked for a doctor to double check and found that he was 1/2 a degree from absolute disaster and was immediately placed in a bath where he melted 25Kg of ice in a few minutes and then stabilised. NHS blunder number X
BUT
What a lot of the Camerons etc. forget in their gated community or where ever they live is that when they have issues etc. or need emergency they call the front line staff being the ambulance services etc. and therefore need essential staff ie those whom they dispise frankly!
I have no issues with giving more say to Hospital doctors and nurses and indeed a possible return to a matron in charge of ward to ensure standards of cleanliness are maintained etc. but this "drive to save costs' by outsourcing to 3rd party cleaners and consultants being gagged and not able to overturn even offering advice in the best interests of the patient.AS WELL AS THE GENTLEMENS rule of not ever questioning a consultant cause they are human and can get it wrong and often do..but with no reprocussion or ability of the ordinary individual to seek address of an issue as everyone thinks that things are great etc....
Lets not fool yourself wither you like it or not there is now a two tier health system and this is not fair or just.
I don't have nor does anyone on this thread have the real answers to solving the issues except perhaps a few whom touched on the middle management topic but this is a symptomatic of the UK as I see it.
However,some of us have actually lived in other countries and not necessarily commonwealth countries but other EU ones and there is different models per country so comparison is difficult at best.
I don't think privatisation will solve things if it goes the same shit way as other privatised sectors like the railways for example but give people CHOICE to get the best they can for their family and frankly total strangers.
I really am at a loss to see why you want to maintain the current system but thats life I suppose

 

[SpineyNorman]

Hmm well lies damn lies and then statistics...interesting that said survey is over 11 years old..based on Y2k figures and does state that its too complex to maintain comparative figures. Interesting that even then if it was so simple things aren't like your voting systems..nice and simple !
So what can be deemed by that..just like i once read that APPARENTLY TFL run a better service than Berlin Metro in time keeping etc. tells me that the source of statistics gathering is wholly dependant on where you source your information on which vested interest drives it and what they want from the surveys. The fact is that Im sure really that many on here actually know someone also whom had absolute shit service from a service that they either needed or relied on as well as the glowing reports of how brillant it is.
Maybe it gets up peoples nose that a foreigner is critical of "their system" apparently as one Im not meant to comment or be critical no doubt even though I pay tax and NI as I live here work here etc.
In terms of Germany there is both a public and private insurance system in place where most take up some form of PRIVATE insurance system which can then be offset against your equivalent NI contributions.
This then frees physicians and staff to recommend fully treatments to patients rather than having toe the political line.
Such a system existed until recent times in the Irish republic where health system was means tested for a medical card but also one could take out private medical insurance and a demonstrable lifestyle such as healthy BMI etc. factored into lowering your RSI the Irish equivalent of NI contributions.
With regards to comments to ...thats life...Jesus aren't you a sympathetic individual possibly a manager in the NHS driving down costs by "better efficiency" controlling resources and all the other bollix spouted out. I hate that fucking atitude but maybe its some English thing I don't get. with regard to the NHS they often don't treat many "ailments"
Translation IF a condition could clear up by itself then it will not be treated AT ALL irrespective of length of time misery caused etc. which then forces people of limited income to try and get some sort of extra insurance just to fill the gap...which is the situation my partner finds herself in ,a condition I don't want to discuss on this board frankly and also "efficient" use of resources means that a fucking cleaner was taking a friends temperature when he had contracted malaria whilst travelling in Africa ended up in hospital here and said cleaner didn't get it right but LUCKILY he asked for a doctor to double check and found that he was 1/2 a degree from absolute disaster and was immediately placed in a bath where he melted 25Kg of ice in a few minutes and then stabilised. NHS blunder number X
BUT
What a lot of the Camerons etc. forget in their gated community or where ever they live is that when they have issues etc. or need emergency they call the front line staff being the ambulance services etc. and therefore need essential staff ie those whom they dispise frankly!
I have no issues with giving more say to Hospital doctors and nurses and indeed a possible return to a matron in charge of ward to ensure standards of cleanliness are maintained etc. but this "drive to save costs' by outsourcing to 3rd party cleaners and consultants being gagged and not able to overturn even offering advice in the best interests of the patient.AS WELL AS THE GENTLEMENS rule of not ever questioning a consultant cause they are human and can get it wrong and often do..but with no reprocussion or ability of the ordinary individual to seek address of an issue as everyone thinks that things are great etc....
Lets not fool yourself wither you like it or not there is now a two tier health system and this is not fair or just.
I don't have nor does anyone on this thread have the real answers to solving the issues except perhaps a few whom touched on the middle management topic but this is a symptomatic of the UK as I see it.
However,some of us have actually lived in other countries and not necessarily commonwealth countries but other EU ones and there is different models per country so comparison is difficult at best.
I don't think privatisation will solve things if it goes the same shit way as other privatised sectors like the railways for example but give people CHOICE to get the best they can for their family and frankly total strangers.
I really am at a loss to see why you want to maintain the current system but thats life I suppose

I'm sorry but that's completely unreadable.

 

[London_Calling]

Apart from the methodology appendix that specifically covers this.

Link, or that a bit complicated at this time of the day?

 

[frogwoman]

someone at work was saying the nhs should be privatised because apparently it's the worst in europe, worse than turkey etc.

they were also saying that germany has a system where everyone has compulsory health insurance and the insurance companies are obliged by law to keep the costs low etc.

the nhs can't be the worst health service in europe, and can anyone give me details on how the german system actually works? because he was saying it's totally private but i thought it was a state run system.


how much support is there out there from the public? because i've heard this from a few people, arguements for priviatising the nhs etc, and obviously most people must be in favour of keeping it, but are there any polls to show the level of popular support?

i wanted to argue with him but i was feeling quite shit so i couldn't really be arsed tbh.

 

[butchersapron]

Link, or that a bit complicated at this time of the day?

It's in the link that you're complaining about. Oh that's right, you didn't bother looking at the report that the link is a summary of before complaining that it didn't contain precisely what it did.

 

[London_Calling]

Of course I read the page. I asked about survey size, not that they phoned up old biddies from their base in the USA.

 

[butchersapron]

Of course I read the page. I asked about survey size, not that they phoned up old biddies from their base in the USA.

You will have noticed then - or not - that it sums up the findings of a report by the Commonwealth fund. If you click on the title of that report (Mirror Mirror on the wall) it will take you to the report. These things are called links. They're becoming quite popular on the internet. Within this report you'd find a special section called a methodological appendix. In this it contains the details that you were complaining that it didn't.

 

[Brainaddict]

they were also saying that germany has a system where everyone has compulsory health insurance and the insurance companies are obliged by law to keep the costs low etc.

I don't know the german system and whether that's true but you can bet if this government changed over to that system they would drop the bit in bold. WHy do I think that? Lots of people would say because I'm cynical (not you btw) - when in fact its a matter of judging who has the power in this country. Ordinary people, bugger all, large profit-making companies, quite a lot. It's amazing how quickly people's eyes glaze over if you try to talk about the structural problems that will fuck all attempts at reform though. They're not used to thinking about political structure or in terms of power, so they want to carry on arguing over how to reform the NHS as though it's a mere technical issue. It's not technical, it's political, and I think that's the thing to try and explain to people.

 

[slainte]

Well sorry about that Norman but when one tends to construct a long post it keeps f**king timing out. So re-read add the appropiate semi colon and full colon pause a each sentence Im sure it will make sense then if it doesn't well what can I say...not much tells me all I need to know.
Frog woman I have outlined somewhat the German system but note that the Irish republic system had a similar system. I say similar as I am not living there currently nor have been for some time ...as long as that survey so I cannot comment with authority on the current system back home.

 

[slainte]

Shit ..Im in agreement with Brainaddict's last post...oh dear but.....hick...well said

 

[London_Calling]

You will have noticed then - or not - that it sums up the findings of a report by the Commonwealth fund. If you click on the title of that report (Mirror Mirror on the wall) it will take you to the report. These things are called links. They're becoming quite popular on the internet. Within this report you'd find a special section called a methodological appendix. In this it contains the details that you were complaining that it didn't.

Funny coincidence that because I was just asking this bloke about a link. And here we are, both talking about links. Neither of us seem to have one though.

 

[butchersapron]

Well, one of us does. Why don't you try doing what i suggested above. Tell you what, forget that i'll make it even easier. Here's the page (CLICK ON IT!) on which the link to the report may be found. It's where the link i suggested you click earlier would have taken you if you'd managed it.

 

[slainte]

The German system has both a private and public system. By law everyone should have insurance and the costs are to be kept low..believe me they are and the service is excellent. For those whom cannot get insurance at all ...(mainly to cover black market economy workers there is also the public system ...which strangely offer the same level of service by and large with the exception of things like extended physio or branded medication you get a basic level which covers RECOVERY FULLY , non branded but medical grade medicines etc.
And yes for a fact they offer C sections to mothers whom..say have or are overdue with scans have determined that there babies are either very large and that labour may be too long and endanger both mother and child....unlike here where you have a "right to a vaginal birth" example my partner 2 weeks in labour 2 fucking weeks to weak to push and our son noted being large was simply too big to come out of the birth canal on his own he was 11lbs 9 ...largest on record for the hospital..
I dont have issues with front line staff they are trying to do the best with what they got , I do have issues with consultants whom don't have accountability if a patient doesn't want a certain procedure or witholds a procedure and this puts a life in risk or causes long term issues which ultimately will cost both the state and individual due to politics and short term gain...but lets face it Britain as a COUNTRY IS NOT POOR compared to others yet other POOR COUNTRIES are now doing better at TIMES when they don't have the same funds..

 

[frogwoman]

I don't know the german system and whether that's true but you can bet if this government changed over to that system they would drop the bit in bold. WHy do I think that? Lots of people would say because I'm cynical (not you btw) - when in fact its a matter of judging who has the power in this country. Ordinary people, bugger all, large profit-making companies, quite a lot. It's amazing how quickly people's eyes glaze over if you try to talk about the structural problems that will fuck all attempts at reform though. They're not used to thinking about political structure or in terms of power, so they want to carry on arguing over how to reform the NHS as though it's a mere technical issue. It's not technical, it's political, and I think that's the thing to try and explain to people.

i dont support what this guy was saying.

 

[slainte]

Fair enough but the NHS here is one of the largest employers in the country and is totally political the bit about if the Government changed over to a privatised system they would drop the keep the cost low bit I agree with as this simply seems to be the way of it over here. From class system to creation of a distinction between those that can and those that cannot afford....rather than update and be genuinely fair..

 

[TurnToTheRight]

Start by laying off half the unneeded managers, and charge those who have been in the UK for less than five years, and have not paid any substantial amount into NI funds for their use of the services provided.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Which managers would you lay off? Can you name one? You could reemploy them checking people are eligible for treatment instead, perhaps?

 

[Brainaddict]

i dont support what this guy was saying.

Oh I know, but it sounded like you wanted to know the german system so you could argue it on technical grounds. I may have been wrong

 

[Brainaddict]

Start by laying off half the unneeded managers, and charge those who have been in the UK for less than five years, and have not paid any substantial amount into NI funds for their use of the services provided.

Do you know how many people have reformed NHS management over the years? They must have missed all those obviously unneeded managers
I'm not saying there aren't any unneeded managers, but you do know the NHS has to be managed, right? So you point out to us which are the needed ones and which aren't.

As for the argument that we don't have enough money to fund healthcare for everyone (therefore should cut back and start with the imgrants) - it's factually incorrect. Because it depends which 'we' you use doesn't it? The UK economy has doubled in size over the last 30 years. Where did it all go Turn?

 

[butchersapron]

Start by laying off half the unneeded managers, and charge those who have been in the UK for less than five years, and have not paid any substantial amount into NI funds for their use of the services provided.

Why are you, a libertarian, arguing that 50% of unneeded managers should be retained?

 

[frogwoman]

Oh I know, but it sounded like you wanted to know the german system so you could argue it on technical grounds. I may have been wrong

yes i do want to know about it.

 

[DotCommunist]

Start by laying off half the unneeded managers, and charge those who have been in the UK for less than five years, and have not paid any substantial amount into NI funds for their use of the services provided.

pretty sure this is already in place. Although not in your 5 year plan.

If you have to pay for treatment because you do not meet the residence conditions, this does not count as discrimination. However, you must be given clear information about charges in a way you understand.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_family/health/nhs_charges_for_people_from_abroad.htm

 

[BigTom]

Hmm well lies damn lies and then statistics...interesting that said survey is over 11 years old..based on Y2k figures and does state that its too complex to maintain comparative figures. Interesting that even then if it was so simple things aren't like your voting systems..nice and simple !
So what can be deemed by that..just like i once read that APPARENTLY TFL run a better service than Berlin Metro in time keeping etc. tells me that the source of statistics gathering is wholly dependant on where you source your information on which vested interest drives it and what they want from the surveys. The fact is that Im sure really that many on here actually know someone also whom had absolute shit service from a service that they either needed or relied on as well as the glowing reports of how brillant it is.

So yeah, pickup on what I pointed out - that the more comprehensive WHO survey is 10 or 11 years out of date, and obviously is unreliable for that reason. But ignore the commonwealth fund study done in 2010, which also ranks the UK healthcare system as being better overall than Germany.
But of course it doesn't matter cos it's statistics and that's just lies obviously, lets ignore the data in favour of the anecdotes..

Nobody is saying that the NHS is perfect, as you say, everybody either has or knows someone else who has had appalling service from the NHS but on the question of how you improve things the data available tells us that, in fact, the NHS does pretty well compared to other countries healthcare systems, and that we can learn what not to do from the USA. I'd be more interested to know more about the Netherlands health care system than Germany.
For all the perils of comparing different countries health outcomes, and the difficulty of doing so, it is the best data that I've seen that tells us about whether the privatisation of the NHS would actually be a good thing, and to me the answer is pretty clearly no. Unless you want to pay more for a worse service of course.
To be honest I didn't really understand the specifics of the rest of your post

 

[slainte]

Okay point taken and a good point Big Tom but as I have stated I don't have the answers for the problem, the swipe at statistics are a bit beneath your postings so far but I do have a valid point about vested interests etc. but I also really don't think that the current system can carry on and be what it claims to be.
I would prefer to have the Swedish system of which my partner has had personal experience with even though she is from Berlin but lived in Sweden for 9 years and now 4 years here. I rate her experience as she has lived between all these countries and had services from all of them for one thing or another.

I would say that there is strengths and weaknesses ACROSS the services required from Cancer treatments to orthpedics etc. and this will vary from EU country to EU country but I find it hard that in just ONE country leaving aside the Act of Union aka the UK just concentrating on England that certain LIVE saving drugs for cancer are refused in one borough but are given in another. If you had a relative whom experienced this..luckily on this I haven't would you make them feel any better if there granddad or grandmother could have been able to get a certain drug or treatment but lived on the wrong side of the track paid into an NI fund all there life but wont get the help due to their postcode ?? They couldn't afford to move and well..you get what Im saying.
Come on

 

[BigTom]

Okay point taken and a good point Big Tom but as I have stated I don't have the answers for the problem, the swipe at statistics are a bit beneath your postings so far but I do have a valid point about vested interests etc. but I also really don't think that the current system can carry on and be what it claims to be.

yeah sorry had some frustrating conversations elsewhere on the same topic with someone pretty well going "you can prove anything with facts" and yes you have a perfectly valid point about the source, but then if you think that privatisation is a solution you should be able to find evidence to counter what I have - after all the private healthcare companies have plenty of money and an interest in funding research that shows how privatisation of healthcare would be a good thing, or possible less explicit stuff from right wing think tanks and the like..
Then you can, if you have time and inclination take a detailed look at all the information you can get, examine its weaknesses and strengths and having sought to create a balance of biases in your research you can come to a more balanced conclusion.
I certainly don't have the time, and obviously the information that comes to me is going to be biased to the way that I want to believe, but if you can go out and find stuff that counters the things that I've presented then we can have a serious conversation about what the best way to proceed would be.

I would prefer to have the Swedish system of which my partner has had personal experience with even though she is from Berlin but lived in Sweden for 9 years and now 4 years here. I rate her experience as she has lived between all these countries and had services from all of them for one thing or another.

Can you expand on this and explain how it works?

I would say that there is strengths and weaknesses ACROSS the services required from Cancer treatments to orthpedics etc. and this will vary from EU country to EU country but I find it hard that in just ONE country leaving aside the Act of Union aka the UK just concentrating on England that certain LIVE saving drugs for cancer are refused in one borough but are given in another. If you had a relative whom experienced this..luckily on this I haven't would you make them feel any better if there granddad or grandmother could have been able to get a certain drug or treatment but lived on the wrong side of the track paid into an NI fund all there life but wont get the help due to their postcode ?? They couldn't afford to move and well..you get what Im saying.
Come on

Yep of course.. like I said, no-one is saying the NHS is perfect, but you have to ask the next question (what is the best way to solve this problem) or you end up doing what Humphrey described in Yes Minister..
Something must be done
This is something
Therefore this must be done

 

[BigTom]

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/20...osts-stupid/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto

Paul Krugman talking about US healthcare costs.. the relevance to this thread is the graph showing the rising cost of both medicare and private insurance and how private insurance costs have risen much more quickly.
I'm not sure if the two things are directly comparable, or if you could get the data from the UK to compare changing cost of NHS and private healthcare to see if we get similar graphs..
further reason to doubt the privatisation of the NHS would be a good thing - at least from the point of view of how much it costs us all to get healthcare

 

[ViolentPanda]

H
With regards to comments to ...thats life...Jesus aren't you a sympathetic individual possibly a manager in the NHS driving down costs by "better efficiency" controlling resources and all the other bollix spouted out. I hate that fucking atitude but maybe its some English thing I don't get. with regard to the NHS they often don't treat many "ailments"

You miss the point, perhaps not surprising given your absorption in your own narrative.

The point is that mistakes happen. That is life, and whatever you do to minimise mistakes, inappropriate and incorrect treatment, you're not going to entirely eliminate them. You can't in a system that is bounded by the human ability to make errors.

I'm not saying "Oi, slainte, suck it up", I'm saying "However good your system is, shit will still occasionally happen".

People aren't perfect. Expecting good service is fine, expecting perfection is foolishness. Shit happens, That's life.

Translation IF a condition could clear up by itself then it will not be treated AT ALL irrespective of length of time misery caused etc. which then forces people of limited income to try and get some sort of extra insurance just to fill the gap...which is the situation my partner finds herself in ,a condition I don't want to discuss on this board frankly and also "efficient" use of resources means that a fucking cleaner was taking a friends temperature when he had contracted malaria whilst travelling in Africa ended up in hospital here and said cleaner didn't get it right but LUCKILY he asked for a doctor to double check and found that he was 1/2 a degree from absolute disaster and was immediately placed in a bath where he melted 25Kg of ice in a few minutes and then stabilised. NHS blunder number X
BUT
What a lot of the Camerons etc. forget in their gated community or where ever they live is that when they have issues etc. or need emergency they call the front line staff being the ambulance services etc. and therefore need essential staff ie those whom they dispise frankly!
I have no issues with giving more say to Hospital doctors and nurses and indeed a possible return to a matron in charge of ward to ensure standards of cleanliness are maintained etc. but this "drive to save costs' by outsourcing to 3rd party cleaners and consultants being gagged and not able to overturn even offering advice in the best interests of the patient.AS WELL AS THE GENTLEMENS rule of not ever questioning a consultant cause they are human and can get it wrong and often do..but with no reprocussion or ability of the ordinary individual to seek address of an issue as everyone thinks that things are great etc....
Lets not fool yourself wither you like it or not there is now a two tier health system and this is not fair or just.
I don't have nor does anyone on this thread have the real answers to solving the issues except perhaps a few whom touched on the middle management topic but this is a symptomatic of the UK as I see it.
However,some of us have actually lived in other countries and not necessarily commonwealth countries but other EU ones and there is different models per country so comparison is difficult at best.
I don't think privatisation will solve things if it goes the same shit way as other privatised sectors like the railways for example but give people CHOICE to get the best they can for their family and frankly total strangers.
I really am at a loss to see why you want to maintain the current system but thats life I suppose

A few points:

The resources necessary to transition from the current health system to a German or French system would be phenomenal, and would be made even more expensive by the vested interests in the current system fighting it tooth and nail.

An equivalent to the German Harz 4 minimal provision of healthcare would see some people left out in the cold in much the same way you claim the NHS does.

Choice is only a decent substitute for state provision if the choice is genuine. What we're looking at here is a construct of choice, where in order to get uncle Percy's hip repaired, your GP consortium contracts ACME medical services to provide an orthopaedic surgeon to replace Percy's hip joint. Invariably, the orthopaedic surgeon will either be the nice NHS consultant that Percy saw a few months back, who assessed that Percy needed a hip replacement. So, the actual choice was between "consultant working for Acme medical services on thursday and friday" and "same consultant working for local healthcare trust on monday, tuesday and wednesday". Not really choice in any way beneficial to the patient, but it is choice beneficial to "Acme medical services" and their ilk, who'll cream off some public money for mediating between GP, surgeon and patient.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't know the german system and whether that's true but you can bet if this government changed over to that system they would drop the bit in bold. WHy do I think that? Lots of people would say because I'm cynical (not you btw) - when in fact its a matter of judging who has the power in this country. Ordinary people, bugger all, large profit-making companies, quite a lot. It's amazing how quickly people's eyes glaze over if you try to talk about the structural problems that will fuck all attempts at reform though. They're not used to thinking about political structure or in terms of power, so they want to carry on arguing over how to reform the NHS as though it's a mere technical issue. It's not technical, it's political, and I think that's the thing to try and explain to people.

And bear in mind that the profit-making companies that benefit from the present NHS structure will fight like starving dogs to make sure that no new system a la Germany was introduced, because that would mean different profit-making companies would reap the benefit.