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Do you agree that the NHS should be privatised? - the Big Urban75 Poll

Do you think the NHS should be privatised?

  • Yes, that sounds great

    Votes: 9 3.8%

  • No, that really doesn't sound great

    Votes: 221 93.2%

  • I need more information before making a decision

    Votes: 7 3.0%

  • I like some of the proposals but not all (specify)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    237
I don't have any strong idealogical axe to grind, it is probably logical that the NHS is state run but I have a slight uneasyness which is that the private sector has an inbuilt cost reduction motivator which is the profit motive. The lower the costs are in the private sector the higher the profits. So the private sector has a built in mechanism which tries to reduce costs. What mechanism does a nationalised NHS have to keep costs down?
 
Basically compared to what a lot of other countries have the NHS is a beacon, even in it's current sorry state.
 
weltweit said:
I don't have any strong idealogical axe to grind, it is probably logical that the NHS is state run but I have a slight uneasyness which is that the private sector has an inbuilt cost reduction motivator which is the profit motive. The lower the costs are in the private sector the higher the profits. So the private sector has a built in mechanism which tries to reduce costs. What mechanism does a nationalised NHS have to keep costs down?
Click to expand...

Constant political pressure for the whole of its existence? Maybe that's why it provides good value for money compared to many other healthcare systems.

The profit motive doesn't just increase efficiency either does it? It also cuts corners, reduces wages and working conditions, offloads unprofitable work to other people, treats people like cattle to be milked, corrupts government with its lobbying, and despite all its talk of risk, when it fails, it is usually the customers (or patients, in this case) who pay, not the people in charge.
 
weltweit said:
I don't have any strong idealogical axe to grind, it is probably logical that the NHS is state run but I have a slight uneasyness which is that the private sector has an inbuilt cost reduction motivator which is the profit motive. The lower the costs are in the private sector the higher the profits. So the private sector has a built in mechanism which tries to reduce costs. What mechanism does a nationalised NHS have to keep costs down?
Click to expand...

No, the amount of money is the same - it's just that part of it is taken out of the system under a profit driven system. if yoy think the market is automatically efficient, and if you define efficient as driving down costs then apet from begging thew question you're actually empirically wrong. Costs are profit. That's what profit is.
 
weltweit said:
I don't have any strong idealogical axe to grind, it is probably logical that the NHS is state run but I have a slight uneasyness which is that the private sector has an inbuilt cost reduction motivator which is the profit motive. The lower the costs are in the private sector the higher the profits. So the private sector has a built in mechanism which tries to reduce costs. What mechanism does a nationalised NHS have to keep costs down?
Click to expand...

What Butchers said and also take a look at how much is actually spent on the NHS compared to other systems.. at home I've got a huge dataset bookmarked that I'll post a link up to later..
USA spends slightly more than 2x per person on healthcare as the UK.. also, state spending per person (as an absolute figure) is higher despite the fact that in the UK public spending accounts for around 90% of health spending, but in the USA it's around 40%.

Marketisation actually drives costs up.. went to a talk a week or so ago by someone from Keep the NHS Public who said that prior to the internal market, admin cost in the nhs were around 3-4%, whereas now they are about 14%.. in the USA they are about 30%..

One mechanism to keep costs down was NICE, which decided whether a medicine (or treatment?) was cost-effective, so the NHS would spend the money it has efficiently in terms of patient care.
 
Brainaddict said:
Anyone got any thoughts on the lack of national-level organising against the end of the NHS? One reason seems to be that the health sector unions, who you would think would be the natural leaders of the resistance, don't seem to want to kick up a fuss about it. I'm not sure why that is, apart from shit bureacratised unions. Anyone know?
Click to expand...
Keep Our NHS Public are the main bunch - very cottage-industry, but it does depend on people like you and me to be involved
 
Anybody who wants to privatise the NHS in whole or part should be given a fucking good kicking until they are almost dead. They should then be deposited on the steps of a Private A&E Hospital.

Err...sorry. The private sector don't do A&E.

:D
 
This is the data set I mentioned early that I haven't got round to mining for interesting bits of info.. OECD comparison of costs of healthcare with 10 years of data for however many countries are in the OECD..

I think that since in the US public spending accounts for around 40% of health spending, but costs more per person this means that privatising the NHS along the lines the USA does would actually cost the taxpayer more, for less of a service.

Also, in addition to what BrainAddict said, it's worth noting that cross infections happen when there are people close together.. the best way to reduce cross infections is to have beds widely spaced apart, or a low occupancy rate. But the most profitable way to run a hospital is with as many beds as possible and as high an occupancy rate as possible - this is just one of what I'm sure are many, many examples of the profit motive being directly opposed to clinical care. So even if the profit motive would reduce costs, you'd be doing it at the cost of patient care, and is that really a trade off you feel happy making?
 
BigTom said:
This is the data setI think that since in the US public spending accounts for around 40% of health spending, but costs more per person this means that privatising the NHS along the lines the USA does would actually cost the taxpayer more, for less of a service.
Click to expand...
Yup, that would seem logical. This is exactly what happened to rail privatization. :mad:
 
hmm the british intelligensia have spoken idris 2002 what exactly are you trying to say besides being a bigot and a xenophobic prick. What it really is a shame all us fucking Irish over here fucking your women no doubt ...well someone has to give them an orgasm eh !
 
Anyone see the BBC news just now? One story about how shit 3 NHS hospitals were found to be after an investigation, then 10 mins later a glowing report about a shiny new hospital run by a "health entrepreneur". Now, call me cynical...
 
Steel☼Icarus said:
Anyone see the BBC news just now? One story about how shit 3 NHS hospitals were found to be after an investigation, then 10 mins later a glowing report about a shiny new hospital run by a "health entrepreneur". Now, call me cynical...
Click to expand...

I have wondered why the torygraph and the mail have been printing stories putting down the nhs for months it's a softening up process
 
There was a big splash story on Today either yesterday or Tuesday about the NHS mistreatment of elderly patients.

Suspicious timing IMO.
 
Steel☼Icarus said:
Anyone see the BBC news just now? One story about how shit 3 NHS hospitals were found to be after an investigation, then 10 mins later a glowing report about a shiny new hospital run by a "health entrepreneur". Now, call me cynical...
Click to expand...

Yes.... but also, on the other hand, it does no help to pretend there aren't things that could be improved (but won't be, inevitably, as the whole service has got to be run down and then rescued by being privatised)
 
while there will always be horrible selfish cunts who would LOVE to see the NHS privatised , what really worries me are the 4 who "need more information" before they make their minds up !!!

i mean do you want lower wages/worse conditions for the staff and a poorer service for users , or do you want it to stay as it is?

not really complicated!
 
_angel_ said:
Yes.... but also, on the other hand, it does no help to pretend there aren't things that could be improved (but won't be, inevitably, as the whole service has got to be run down and then rescued by being privatised)
Click to expand...

True, but it's the VERY quick glossing-over of the fact that 3 of 12 hospitals looked at had serious problems, with upset relatives etc, and then a glowing report on some new private hospital as if it were a successful, long-established place with no problems, past, present or future that got on my tits. They don't run many news stories about how the NHS is improving and "customer" satisfaction is high.
 
Steel☼Icarus said:
True, but it's the VERY quick glossing-over of the fact that 3 of 12 hospitals looked at had serious problems, with upset relatives etc, and then a glowing report on some new private hospital as if it were a successful, long-established place with no problems, past, present or future that got on my tits. They don't run many news stories about how the NHS is improving and "customer" satisfaction is high.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, of course, you're not going to hear anything good about the NHS esp on the BBC.
 
slainte said:
hmm the british intelligensia have spoken idris 2002 what exactly are you trying to say besides being a bigot and a xenophobic prick. What it really is a shame all us fucking Irish over here fucking your women no doubt ...well someone has to give them an orgasm eh !
Click to expand...

You sad fuck. He's a bog-trotter, the same as you! :p
 
_angel_ said:
Yes.... but also, on the other hand, it does no help to pretend there aren't things that could be improved (but won't be, inevitably, as the whole service has got to be run down and then rescued by being privatised)
Click to expand...

Even at the apex of it's existence, there were always things that could be improved about the NHS. It's the nature of large, bureau-centric organisations that they're not exactly fast at innovation. That said, the baseline of NHS healthcare has always been solid, whereas these private institutions may promise a similar baseline of healthcare, but can they deliver, once they've taken their profit from the money budgeted for our healthcare?
 
ViolentPanda said:
You sad fuck. He's a bog-trotter, the same as you! :p
Click to expand...

Top o' the morning to ye.

leprechaun01.gif


Begorrah.
 
:) quam tristis vos quod equus vos rode in in is locus ...idris 2002 and others why you almost sound educated...:0

What I would say is that personally I have had utter shit experiences with the NHS which have left long term conditions for myself which could have been sorted by proper health care. Leaving aside my aunt married husband whom caught and died from MRSA at the Royal Free Hospital for a routine operation...there is always good and bad and frankly I don't think that a lottery on your health care by borough is acceptable nor is it acceptable that only someone with only 2 weeks training can put on casts etc. for fractures ..on the OLDE NHS..a fact ! therefore its not standardised is it ?
I am for healthcare for all but some of us european "foreigners" have another reference point to refer to and old blightly has been failing for a long time on the PATIENTS whom entrust their care.
Do I have an answer for the situation nope.. but frankly maintaining the status quo is a case of diminishing and risking peoples lives just by where they life and therefore quality of individuals is a situation I resent paying for if you don't like it ...then fuck you Im entitled to my opinion.
Non tory voter ...slainte (Begorrah and all that ! :)
 
I wonder if you took the whole NHS budget, how much of it would be spent with Drugs firms on medicines and treatments.
 
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