Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[8ball]

Starch is the ideal long-term energy source and the one the body can most efficiently make use of.

I like the bulk of your post, but I'm not sure about this bit. Or about the word 'ideal', anyway. The proportion of fat and sugars your body is using for energy at any one time can vary based on a few factors.

I'm not entirely convinced about the Atkins diet being quite down to the motives you state either, but I don't know enough to argue the point. I agree about the 'metabolic back alleys' though.

edit: must admit i was thinking of the keto pathway there - i do remember people on the Atkins diet talking about it back in the day but if it's not necessarily part of it I might have just conflated them accidentally

 

[Horus Snacks]

I seriously doubt that anyone having a full English-style veggie/vegan breakfast would end up any more/less hungry than someone who eat a meaty one of equivalent size.

depends what is in it and what it's made of, i'v eno idea what an english style veggie/vegan breakfast is, or how meat substitute products, if included, are made.

 

[Horus Snacks]

I like the bulk of your post, but I'm not sure about this bit. Or about the word 'ideal', anyway. The proportion of fat and sugars your body is using for energy at any one time can vary based on a few factors.

I'm not entirely convinced about the Atkins diet being quite down to the motives you state either, but I don't know enough to argue the point. I agree about the 'metabolic back alleys' though.

Atkins has been around since at least the 70's. It's only infamous because the likes of the Mail decided that it was something to moan about when Jennifer Aniston stopped eating bread or something.

what metabolic back alleys are you referring to and why is that, if true, a problem?

 

[8ball]

I seriously doubt that anyone having a full English-style veggie/vegan breakfast would end up any more/less hungry than someone who eat a meaty one of equivalent size.

I just looked one up and it does look pretty hearty.
I couldn't say with certainty which is more satiating but it does look like a decent breakfast that could well pass the hangover test.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Recommended reading : https://www.amazon.co.uk/Proteinaholic-Obsession-Meat-Killing-About/dp/0062279300

Relevant excerpt...
-------------------
From Real Food to Macronutrients

I'm fascinated by the concept of unintended consequences. We try to accomplish something, and the blowback from our efforts ends up sabotaging our goals in ways we didn't foresee. In this case, the McGovern Committee had wanted to help us avoid heart disease. Instead, the major effect—a highly problematic one—was to change the way we talk about food. And that change in language has contributed to our galloping epidemic of heart disease and other killers.

Before the committee, nutritionists, doctors, and policy-makers spoke of whole foods: fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, meats, fish, butter, eggs. After the committee publicized its guidelines, we stopped talking about food and instead referred to the macronutrient components of food: fats, carbohydrates, and of course, protein.

"Carbs" in general weren’t the problem, of course. The problem was that people were eating processed, refined carbs instead of fresh whole fruits and vegetables, beans, and whole grains. After all, green leafy vegetables are carbs, and so are broccoli, cucumbers, red peppers, and onions, and those are some of the healthiest foods on earth. But because of our focus on macronutrients, we aren’t really thinking about those specific foods. We say “carbs”—and think starch.

Even to think about starchy carbs as a separate category distorts the picture. There’s a world of difference between a bowl of steel-cut oatmeal and a sugar-sweetened cereal made from refined flour; between some boiled garbanzos or black beans and a fried corn chip or potato chip.

Moreover, some “carbs” are mainly fats. Muffins, for example, are anywhere from 40 to 50 percent fat by calories, yet they are unfairly lumped in as a carb. Ditto McDonald’s french fries—over 43 percent of their calories come from the oil in which they are fried.

Some diet gurus even began to demonize fruit, conflating the natural sugars that occur in fruit with dead, processed, white sugar. This despite the fact that fresh, whole fruit is one of the healthiest foods there is, full of fiber, vitamins, and phytochemicals. If there is one food that could be said to be created specifically for human consumption, it would be fruit.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Aren't starches basically chemical mirror-images of sugars?

No. Starch is basically a very long chain of sugar moecules.

 

[8ball]

Atkins has been around since at least the 70's. It's only infamous because the likes of the Mail decided that it was something to moan about when Jennifer Aniston stopped eating bread or something.

what metabolic back alleys are you referring to and why is that, if true, a problem?

See edit above.

 

[SpookyFrank]

No human has ever needed carbs. It's the one macro you do not need.

Glucose is a 'carb' ie carbohydrate, and this is the only fuel that your brain is able to use.

So yeah, what you've said here is horseshit.

e2a: And saying 'macro' like that is another dead giveaway that you don't know what you're on about.

 

[AnnaKarpik]

Funny how vegans don't die of early then really isn't it?

What stuff can't you find in plant based food?

I don't think I've read anything to suggest that vegans are particularly long-lived either; the idea that vegans (or vegetarians for that matter) are healthier because of what they avoid eating is an odd one. Off the top of my head I can think of three groups of people who tend to live longer and healthier lives than the norm (northern Italy, Okinawa, US seventh day adventists). The Italians eat meat, the Okinawans eat meat and fish and the longest lived adventists eat fish. Then there's the Graz study of vegetarians that found they suffer more ill-health than omnivores (nb - the study did not conclude that a vegetarian diet was responsible for this. It seems that scientists, unlike newspapers, know that if a study divides people into meat / non-meat eaters it doesn't necessarily mean that any effects discovered are down to the presence or absence of meat.)

There is evidence galore that eating whole grains, legumes and lots of vegetables and fruit has a beneficial effect on various disease markers as well as the subjective experience of good health, whether you take out the dead things or not.

 

[editor]

depends what is in it and what it's made of, i'v eno idea what an english style veggie/vegan breakfast is, or how meat substitute products, if included, are made.

Here's a picture of one if you're finding it so hard to imagine. This would leave me extremely full, as in unable to eat any more. As in as full as if I'd just eaten a meat one.

 

[mojo pixy]

No. Starch is basically a very long chain of sugar moecules.

OK fair enough, last thing I read about starch and sugar was Asimov's great big New Guide to Science book years ago, and in it he seemed to say starch and sugar were identical molecules but structured oppositely. I evidently misunderstood.

 

[8ball]

Recommended reading : https://www.amazon.co.uk/Proteinaholic-Obsession-Meat-Killing-About/dp/0062279300

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Proteinaholic-Obsession-Meat-Killing-About/dp/0062279300

Good excerpt there.

Except maybe:

If there is one food that could be said to be created specifically for human consumption, it would be fruit.

No, if there was only *one* food created specifically for human consumption it would be human breast milk.

 

[Horus Snacks]

"Carbs" in general weren’t the problem, of course. The problem was that people were eating processed, refined carbs instead of fresh whole fruits and vegetables, beans, and whole grains. After all, green leafy vegetables are carbs, and so are broccoli, cucumbers, red peppers, and onions, and those are some of the healthiest foods on earth. But because of our focus on macronutrients, we aren’t really thinking about those specific foods. We say “carbs”—and think starch.

Even to think about starchy carbs as a separate category distorts the picture. There’s a world of difference between a bowl of steel-cut oatmeal and a sugar-sweetened cereal made from refined flour; between some boiled garbanzos or black beans and a fried corn chip or potato chip.

Moreover, some “carbs” are mainly fats. Muffins, for example, are anywhere from 40 to 50 percent fat by calories, yet they are unfairly lumped in as a carb. Ditto McDonald’s french fries—over 43 percent of their calories come from the oil in which they are fried.

Some diet gurus even began to demonize fruit, conflating the natural sugars that occur in fruit with dead, processed, white sugar. This despite the fact that fresh, whole fruit is one of the healthiest foods there is, full of fiber, vitamins, and phytochemicals. If there is one food that could be said to be created specifically for human consumption, it would be fruit.

This is a terrible quote.

The point about carbs is that they aren't necessary for human health and are a problem for a lot of people, not simply because refined food. People who eat LCHF find that the lower intake does them good. Arguing that carbs are fine because...broccoli is nonsense, there's precious few carbs (not including fibre which isn't digested) in it.

No carbs are fats. That's just nonsense. They are completely different macronutrients and you need fats more than you need carbs.

I don't care what diet gurus 'demonise' this is hyperbole; the point is that fruit is essentially just sugar and that the nutrition that many contain can be found elsewhere. Cooked liver is a far better source than an apple for all round nutrition for example. Now if you enjoy apples, good luck toyou - fillyour boots. Some fruits are fine - avocados are great because they are very low carb so i eat them. But that's the only fruit i eat. You don't need fruit.

Created for human consumption? Sounds like Ray Comfort's "bananas prove god exists" argument to me (despite bananas being man made).

 

[Horus Snacks]

Here's a picture of one if you're finding it so hard to imagine. This would leave me extremely full, as in unable to eat any more. As in as full as if I'd just eaten a meat one.

View attachment 126572

Great, but again -so what? A picture of a meal isn't very imformative is it.

The goal of being full is n't to stuff yourself so you can't eat anymore, it's to feel sated. That's not = i'm stuffed (it is wafer thin!)

 

[8ball]

Created for human consumption? Sounds like Ray Comfort's "bananas prove god exists" argument to me (despite bananas being man made).

My Dad used to work at the banana factory.
He got laid off when the EU decided they had to be straight from now on. One less step in the system

That's why I voted Brexit.

 

[8ball]

Great, but again -so what? A picture of a meal isn't very imformative is it.

It does look good, tbf.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The point about carbs is that they aren't necessary for human health

Again, this is not even slightly close to bearing the merest resemblance to anything remotely akin to something that has at any point even vaguely considered the prospect of being true.

 

[8ball]

Again, this is not even slightly close to bearing the merest resemblance to anything remotely akin to something that has at any point even vaguely considered the prospect of being true.

I think you'd be quite poorly if the only carbs you had were the obligatory glucose required for your brain.
Gut biome buggered, blood lipids would be very wonky, I dread to think what would happen to your bowel movements...

 

[editor]

Great, but again -so what? A picture of a meal isn't very imformative is it.

The goal of being full is n't to stuff yourself so you can't eat anymore, it's to feel sated. That's not = i'm stuffed (it is wafer thin!)

This is the stupidest argument ever.

 

[Horus Snacks]

Glucose is a 'carb' ie carbohydrate, and this is the only fuel that your brain is able to use.

So yeah, what you've said here is horseshit.

e2a: And saying 'macro' like that is another dead giveaway that you don't know what you're on about.

yes our brains use glucose, so what?

the amount of glucose in our bodies is absolutely tiny.

there is no science that demonstrates the necessity to consume carbs and to say glucose is a carb is not strictly being accurate

 

[PaoloSanchez]

This is a terrible quote.

The point about carbs is that they aren't necessary for human health and are a problem for a lot of people, not simply because refined food. People who eat LCHF find that the lower intake does them good. Arguing that carbs are fine because...broccoli is nonsense, there's precious few carbs (not including fibre which isn't digested) in it.

No carbs are fats. That's just nonsense. They are completely different macronutrients and you need fats more than you need carbs.

I don't care what diet gurus 'demonise' this is hyperbole; the point is that fruit is essentially just sugar and that the nutrition that many contain can be found elsewhere. Cooked liver is a far better source than an apple for all round nutrition for example. Now if you enjoy apples, good luck toyou - fillyour boots. Some fruits are fine - avocados are great because they are very low carb so i eat them. But that's the only fruit i eat. You don't need fruit.

Created for human consumption? Sounds like Ray Comfort's "bananas prove god exists" argument to me (despite bananas being man made).

lol, the fact that you are referring to macronutrients rather than whole foods kinda proves the point.
"fruit is essentially just sugar", lol, yeah right. Vague nonsense.
"cooked liver is a better source than an apple for all round nutrition" ???
wow, just wow. So who goes around eating exclusively one type of food? That is a useless comparison. The point is that folks on a VARIETY of whole plant foods, nuts and seeds can and do thrive and appear to be doing rather well for themselves when compared to your regular omnivore punter. If you have evidence to the contrary, bring it forth and share it with us rather than the vague statements you've come up with so far.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I think you'd be quite poorly if the only carbs you had were the obligatory glucose required for your brain.
Gut biome buggered, blood lipids would be very wonky, I dread to think what would happen to your bowel movements...

Without carbohydrates you'd not live long enough to be worried about your bowels.

 

[Horus Snacks]

This is the stupidest argument ever.

how so?

satiety =/= mr creosote

 

[SpookyFrank]

to say glucose is a carb is not strictly being accurate

Where did you study biochemistry again? The University of Shitforbrains?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I suspect Snacks is playing a game of "defend the indefensible".

 

[SpookyFrank]

This is just that weird offal guy with a new username isn't it?

At least he's been able to restrain himself from one-handedly typing out lists of unpleasant animal parts this time.

 

[8ball]

Where did you study biochemistry again? The University of Shitforbrains?

Unless this a *really* obscure biochem-geek ploy to argue it's a ketone.
Whole 'nother can of worms there, though.

 

[Horus Snacks]

lol, the fact that you are referring to macronutrients rather than whole foods kinda proves the point.
"fruit is essentially just sugar", lol, yeah right. Vague nonsense.
"cooked liver is a better source than an apple for all round nutrition" ???
wow, just wow. So who goes around eating exclusively one type of food? That is a useless comparison. The point is that folks on a VARIETY of whole plant foods, nuts and seeds can and do thrive and appear to be doing rather well for themselves when compared to your regular omnivore punter. If you have evidence to the contrary, bring it forth and share it with us rather than the vague statements you've come up with so far.

The whole point? What IS your point, i don't think you've made one yet; can you tell me?
Fruits comprise some good nutrition, which can be better sourced elswhere, and fructose/carbs. That's not a conspiracy my friend.
Organ meats are incredibly nutritious.
I've no idea who goes around eating one type of food, I don't think that was my argument.
I haven't said people can't eat vegan food. I've said that for me, and plenty of others, LC diets are best and that meat is a good (i'd say optimal personally) source of nutrition. Not once have i spoken down to someone because they eat differently than I

 

[SpookyFrank]

This is the stupidest argument ever.

I dunno, if you post a picture of meat on the internet people can eat that. It's only vegan pictures that contain no nutrients.

 

[Horus Snacks]

Without carbohydrates you'd not live long enough to be worried about your bowels.

show me again all those people that died becauise they didn't eat carbs