Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[lazythursday]

It's really tricky trying to explain to the anti-MSM crowd that just because most media has biases, and can reflect the interests of its owners, and at times does print outright lies, it doesn't mean it can be completely dismissed as a source of information. But I think the best argument (and this goes for most conspiracies) is just the sheer number of people involved - whatever the instructions from the top of a media organisation, there is no way that all of those newsrooms of journalists would suppress a story as big as Covid being fake, even if they wanted to.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

It actually annoys me greatly that the loons seem to think that just because I read the guardian and BBC news, I've been duped by the MSM. They seem to think I read them and believe everything they say which is bollocks. I know they have an agenda and I don't necessarily believe everything they write. Even BBC weather should be taken with a pinch of salt FFS.

One thing they seem unable to grasp IME is the difference between whether an outlet puts a particular slant on something or chooses what to report at all according to particular values (which they all do) and whether something is just made up entirely (which for all their faults I don't believe the Guardian and BBC news for example are in the habit of doing).

To pick an example from this weeks news the bombardment of 'woe is us, show some respect' type stories about Prince Philip we've had this week shows a lot about the assumptions and values that the mainstream media operates under. But the basic facts that have been reported are true aren't they - he's a real person who has died of the complications coming about from being nearly 100 years old, he's not not-actually-dead, never-existed or actually-assassinated-by-Mossad. And I haven't checked but some of these people are so far gone I wouldn't be shocked to see that sort of stuff.

Not that it's a subtle distinction but too hard for some I think.

 

[lazythursday]

I think also, that these people think of various institutions - media organisations, arms of the state, health bodies, academia - as distant, monolithic things controlled by a small cabal of people - not living organisations, made up of hundreds of thousands of people, not all of them wealthy, many of them right now sat in bedrooms of ordinary houses doing their work. Who might all work within the culture and expectations of their organisations but can't be easily controlled and manipulated on the kind of scale that would be necessary for (most) conspiracies to be true.

 

[souljacker]

I think also, that these people think of various institutions - media organisations, arms of the state, health bodies, academia - as distant, monolithic things controlled by a small cabal of people - not living organisations, made up of hundreds of thousands of people, not all of them wealthy, many of them right now sat in bedrooms of ordinary houses doing their work. Who might all work within the culture and expectations of their organisations but can't be easily controlled and manipulated on the kind of scale that would be necessary for (most) conspiracies to be true.

I often ask the loons how many people are 'in on it' because it must be millions of people including members of my family, work colleagues and pretty much every politician throughout the world. It's just not plausible.

 

[LDC]

Yeah, totally, it's (among other things) the ability to have or get any nuance that's partly missing with the conspiracy people.

Things and sources are either wholly correct and completely trustworthy, or totally incorrect and just a pack of lies. It's a bit like how little kids have a tantrum when you take something like a toy away, you go from being the lovely best person ever to the worst nastiest person ever. I'm sure someone could speculate about developmental stages that they've missed or something.

 

[Johnny Doe]

Yeah, totally, it's (among other things) the ability to have or get any nuance that's partly missing with the conspiracy people.

Things and sources are either wholly correct and completely trustworthy, or totally incorrect and just a pack of lies. It's a bit like how little kids have a tantrum when you take something like a toy away, you go from being the lovely best person ever to the worst nastiest person ever. I'm sure someone could speculate about developmental stages that they've missed or something.

Indeed. Clearly the media has biases, vested interests, but quite what happens to someone's brain to say 'I now don't trust these sources, but I completely trust Infowrars ropey video claiming Michelle Obama is a man', is a mystery.

 

[pbsmooth]

I often ask the loons how many people are 'in on it' because it must be millions of people including members of my family, work colleagues and pretty much every politician throughout the world. It's just not plausible.

exactly.

one slightly susceptible friend now thinks the govt must have been pleased that the weather is bad because they don't want people out and things to open up!? how does that fit with eat out to help out and the idea that they originally favoured places reopening for the sake of the economy. the mind gymnastics is scary.

 

[William of Walworth]

I often ask the loons how many people are 'in on it' because it must be millions of people including members of my family, work colleagues and pretty much every politician throughout the world. It's just not plausible.

Agreeing

I've posted this before in conspiraloon threads, but I definitely agree that most rabbit-hole-headers** tend gullibly to think that such Great Big Conspiracies are not being spotted, depite the numbers of conspiracists that just HAVE to be involved .... and withiout being noiticed??!!??!!11!1!1!!1!!1!! ...

Dream on!

*And 'Headers' has a certain meaning it these areas of South Wales ..... "you fuckin' header!"

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

My next door neighbour has just outed herself as an anti-vaxxer. Can't say I'm that shocked, she moved in on 23rd December, who moves house on 23rd December ffs??? And she's a hoarder that would make Mr Trebus blush, her garage is full to the brim with crap, and a load of old bedframes dumped in front of the garage, her side passage is filled with UPVC window frames. Anyway, I told her I'd been jabbed up, she is 20 years older than me but is still weighing it up. I said that I understood, there'd been a lot of conflicting reports out there, but not dying of Covid is quite a benefit even if there are some issues with it, and so on. Then she says it, those two words, Bill Gates.

"He's manufactured the whole pandemic to sell vaccines."

"He sells computer software, not vaccines?"

"Yes, but when he talks about it you can tell from the way he grins." - as if there is a type of grin that says 'I created a global pandemic in order to sell vaccines that I don't sell'

Too.Far.Gone.

 

[BigMoaner]

My next door neighbour has just outed herself as an anti-vaxxer. Can't say I'm that shocked, she moved in on 23rd December, who moves house on 23rd December ffs??? And she's a hoarder that would make Mr Trebus blush, her garage is full to the brim with crap, and a load of old bedframes dumped in front of the garage, her side passage is filled with UPVC window frames. Anyway, I told her I'd been jabbed up, she is 20 years older than me but is still weighing it up. I told her I understood, there'd been a lot of conflicting reports out there, but not dying of Covid is quite a benefit even if there some issues with it, and so on. Then she says it, those two words, Bill Gates.

"He's manufactured the whole pandemic to sell vaccines."

"He sell computer software, no vaccines?"

"Yes, but when he talks about it you can tell from the way he grins." - as if there is a type of grin that says 'I created a global pandemic in order to sell vaccines that I don't sell'

Too.Far.Gone.

Lost cause. Total write off.

 

[BigMoaner]

I would say the bill Gates narrative is one of the most popular and fixed threads of belief in loon camps. Go to any YouTube video with gates and see the comments.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I would say the bill Gates narrative is one of the most popular and fixed threads of belief in loon camps. Go to any YouTube video with gates and see the comments.

If only Billy-boy would convert to Judaism, it would be a full house for these morons.

 

[magneze]

I've been listening to an interesting podcast that goes into why this might be happening. This episode is particularly relevant:

Down the Rabbit Hole by Design. Guest: Guillaume Chaslot

Guillaume Chaslot, AI expert, helped write YouTube’s recommendation engine and reveals how those priorities spin up outrage, conspiracy theories and extremism.

www.humanetech.com

When we press play on a YouTube video, we set in motion an algorithm that taps all available data to find the next video that keeps us glued to the screen. Because of its advertising-based business model, YouTube’s top priority is not to help us learn to play the accordion, tie a bow tie, heal an injury, or see a new city — it’s to keep us staring at the screen for as long as possible, regardless of the content. This episode’s guest, AI expert Guillaume Chaslot, helped write YouTube’s recommendation engine and explains how those priorities spin up outrage, conspiracy theories and extremism. After leaving YouTube, Guillaume’s mission became shedding light on those hidden patterns on his website, AlgoTransparency.org, which tracks and publicizes YouTube recommendations for controversial content channels. Through his work, he encourages YouTube to take responsibility for the videos it promotes and aims to give viewers more control.

We're all affected by this when we use these services, as much as we like to think we're not.

In short, give the victims a break, there are others at fault here.

 

[Cloo]

Good Lord the dingbats replying 'More bollocks', 'Right on cue', 'Of course so they can have another lockdown' etc to Sky news report of surge testing in my area:

 

[William of Walworth]

I've been listening to an interesting podcast that goes into why this might be happening. This episode is particularly relevant:

Down the Rabbit Hole by Design. Guest: Guillaume Chaslot

Guillaume Chaslot, AI expert, helped write YouTube’s recommendation engine and reveals how those priorities spin up outrage, conspiracy theories and extremism.

www.humanetech.com

We're all affected by this when we use these services, as much as we like to think we're not.

In short, give the victims a break, there are others at fault here.

I'm too bloody impatient with dingbat conspiraloon twazzocks to have much (OR ANY!!!!) patience for all that 'they're victoms and need our sympathy' bollocks

Lots of them are victims mainly of their own utter stupidity in my pints-based opinion

 

[BigMoaner]

I've been listening to an interesting podcast that goes into why this might be happening. This episode is particularly relevant:

Down the Rabbit Hole by Design. Guest: Guillaume Chaslot

Guillaume Chaslot, AI expert, helped write YouTube’s recommendation engine and reveals how those priorities spin up outrage, conspiracy theories and extremism.

www.humanetech.com

We're all affected by this when we use these services, as much as we like to think we're not.

In short, give the victims a break, there are others at fault here.

Not sure they need sympathy - it doesn't seem to be linked, from my anecdotal observation, with class, many, perhaps most, seem to have nice, successful lives. I think what they are most in need of is critical thinking skills. And to read things like books, long form, explorative work. And to understand, even whilst taking into account bias and agenda, how truth is arrived at by many institutions and media outlets. It's the severe lack of trust and paranoia that is at the root of it, combined with an incredible irony of trusting randoms on the Internet.

The loon camp is of course a side dish to the real and worrying structural problems in society. But what makes me uneasy about it, even more so than far right groups, is a) it seems to have spread and if a) is true, how far will it spread? What is the general resilience to this stuff? The capital riot was just loon meme warfare IRL for the lols?

 

[cupid_stunt]

This makes for an interesting read.

Our analysis of traffic to the top 100 global English-language news sites reveals that while news consumption soared overall in 2020, untrustworthy news sites saw bigger surges in readership.

Our analysis used website visit metrics from SimilarWeb and data from journalism technology company NewsGuard which separates sites producing reliable journalism from those peddling false or misleading information. It found that total visits in 2020 to sites that NewsGuard considered untrustworthy (i.e. put in their “red” category) were up 70% compared to 2019. The number of visits to generally trustworthy (“green”) sites was 47% higher than in 2019.

Covid-19 and the rise of misinformation and misunderstanding

Press Gazette finds traffic to news sites surged in 2020 due to Covid-19 and the US election but sources pushing misinformation saw bigger increases.

www.pressgazette.co.uk

 

[BigMoaner]

I think all political discourse in the future will have to account for a large loon narrative. I think the genee is out of the bottle. And you will get bottom feeding grifters like fox, farage etc who will feed off of them, if only occasionally. Money can be made out of this stuff. It's paying folks mortgages somewhere.

The friend I saw go from posting about football and hiking to democrats harvesting children's bloods within the space of a year I don't think will ever go back to his "normal" media consuming ways. I guess once the paranoia is so deep and believed, yoir sources become more and more extreme.

 

[BigMoaner]

Another hope I guess is to reduce it to psychology - in the sense that the vast majority of people have psychological immunity to this stuff, whether they are on the right or left. That what we see in the denier loon worlds is not a problem that needs much attention because we know, much like we know that bungee jumping tickets will not increase by 600%, that it will max out to a large but insubstantial circle of gullable, paranoid folk.

 

[magneze]

Nice dismissal chaps. Let's just ignore the problem, call them all twazzocks and loons and not wonder why the problem might be increasing.

Did you engage your superior "critical thinking skills" in coming up with those responses?

 

[BigMoaner]

Nice dismissal chaps. Let's just ignore the problem, call them all twazzocks and loons and not wonder why the problem might be increasing.

Did you engage your superior "critical thinking skills" in coming up with those responses?

Your first words were "give them a break" plus a link to the obvious reasons why YouTube is bad for spreading stuff. I'm not sure giving them a break/space/hug etc will work though.

Concern for this stuffs spread is everywhere, including this thread.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I don't know if I or anyone else has brought this up before (and it's kinda off topic, though probably still linked to covid deniers/anti-lockdowners etc), but I've noticed the Great Reset conspiracy theories doing the rounds in left-wing/anarchist circles online. And this is not helped by the fact that people such as Russell Brand appear to be taking it seriously.

 

[BigMoaner]

And if you don't think that someone who believes thay Bill Gates wants to kill us all and Obama drinks babies blood could do with better critical thinking skills and instead needs a break, then you're doing them a disservice.

 

[BigMoaner]

I don't if I or anyone else has brought this up before (and it's kinda off topic, though probably still linked to covid deniers/anti-lockdowners etc), but I've noticed the Great Reset conspiracy theories doing the rounds in left-wing/anarchist circles online. And this is not helped by the fact that people such as Naomi Klein and Russell Brand appear to be taking it seriously.

Yes brand is tip toeing into this stuff all the time.

 

[BigMoaner]

Give him a break though, he's just a victim of the algrithym.

 

[BigMoaner]

I don't know if I or anyone else has brought this up before (and it's kinda off topic, though probably still linked to covid deniers/anti-lockdowners etc), but I've noticed the Great Reset conspiracy theories doing the rounds in left-wing/anarchist circles online. And this is not helped by the fact that people such as Naomi Klein and Russell Brand appear to be taking it seriously.

As said, he needs the views. To stay relevant and rack in this views. The whole model is dangerous.

 

[LDC]

I don't know if I or anyone else has brought this up before (and it's kinda off topic, though probably still linked to covid deniers/anti-lockdowners etc), but I've noticed the Great Reset conspiracy theories doing the rounds in left-wing/anarchist circles online. And this is not helped by the fact that people such as Naomi Klein and Russell Brand appear to be taking it seriously.

There's no surprise with him, slightly more surprised with her. Have you got a example ref for this?

TBH I'm not shocked that some people in left wing/activist type circles go with this stuff, some of the views are pretty wacky anyway, I know more than a couple of people I thought were sensible refusing to have the Pfizer vaccine due to the nanotech in it. Not many steps from that to tracking conspiracy stuff.

Watching the films of conspiracy people walking around supermarkets shouting about mask wearing reminded me of the stuff activists used to do in supermarkets about GM etc, pretty similar in some ways.

 

[IC3D]

It's the natural desire to see patterns in things to create reason. It has viral properties ironicly like early Christianity or Islam. They will try out a lot of loony ideas and the more plausible ones stick.
And as far as religion goes there are far more vaxx avoiders citing God business than Bill Gates I'm sure.

 

[rubbershoes]

"He's manufactured the whole pandemic to sell vaccines."

"He sells computer software, not vaccines?"

A man who has given $50 billion to charity doesn't give a shit about selling vaccines

 

[AmateurAgitator]

There's no surprise with him, slightly more surprised with her. Have you got a example ref for this?

Maybe I'm wrong about Klein as I have found an article by her calling it a conspiracy theory. However, I did see a Russell Brand video about it quoting her.