Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[cupid_stunt]

I get the hardening attitudes but it's not so simple. There's a variety of reasons people hold this mess of beliefs/ideas, and some of them are much less bonkers than others, and I think separating them out into different categories and then treating them differently is more productive probably, also depending on the context of where and how you encounter them. Like Piers Corbyn and his ilk just need fucking shooting, whereas Bob Fucknuts who's lost his job and is angry and is ranting about lockdowns being wrong needs a more sympathetic approach.

I agree, my 'fuck them' attitude only extends to the complete loons, those that are just a bit sceptical can often be worth engaging with.

 

[BigMoaner]

I must say that my attitude towards the idiots has hardened. It has gone from concern for them, because they have been persuaded that something that is good is something harmful, to 'Oh well, if you die or suffer long term adverse effect, it is your own fucking fault'. Not terribly charitable but 'idiot overload' has kicked in.

If they weren't so sure of themselves I would have more empathy. A great deal of them are narcissistic arseholes, so sure of themselves that they have consistantly put others at risks.

 

[BigMoaner]

I agree, my 'fuck them' attitude only extends to the complete loons, those that are just a bit sceptical can often be worth engaging with.

Yes, although I disagree with it entirely, the "end lock down sooner" mob are not on the same level as the deniers. Two different camps. The former, no matter how misguided, are at least trying to use arguments based in reality.

 

[BigMoaner]

The Facebook group I was monitoring as been taken down.

Already stated that they've gone full tin hat about the census. It's going to be grim but facinsting to see what they do if/when things return to normal. Admit that they were wrong being the least likely outcome. Also how are they going to feel with a vacinnated nation and them blowing in the wind, open to ol' corona? Scared? Oh dear what a shame boo hoo.

 

[existentialist]

I get the hardening attitudes but it's not so simple. There's a variety of reasons people hold this mess of beliefs/ideas, and some of them are much less bonkers than others, and I think separating them out into different categories and then treating them differently is more productive probably, also depending on the context of where and how you encounter them. Like Piers Corbyn and his ilk just need fucking shooting, whereas Bob Fucknuts who's lost his job and is angry and is ranting about lockdowns being wrong needs a more sympathetic approach.

Ah, you've met Bob Fucknuts, too...

 

[emanymton]

The Facebook group I was monitoring as been taken down.

Already stated that they've gone full tin hat about the census. It's going to be grim but facinsting to see what they do if/when things return to normal. Admit that they were wrong being the least likely outcome. Also how are they going to feel with a vacinnated nation and them blowing in the wind, open to ol' corona? Scared? Oh dear what a shame boo hoo.

I love that these nuts go made about the census but have no problem using Facebook, YouTube etc. Part of me wonders if this is a result of right wing libertarian thinking. But most of me thinks that's giving them too much credit and they are just thick as pig shit.

 

[andysays]

Where can I sign up to be a nihilist?

"Say what you like about the tenets of anti-vax conspiraloonerie, Dude, but at least it's an ethos..."

But seriously, fuck them, TBH

 

[existentialist]

I love that these nuts go made about the census but have no problem using Facebook, YouTube etc. Part of me wonders if this is a result of right wing libertarian thinking. But most of me thinks that's giving them too much credit and they are just thick as pig shit.

A lot of the gullible people who are falling into this shit whom I know aren't thick. Far from it. It's not just about intelligence, it's also about having some sort of critical thinking ability.

 

[two sheds]

A lot of the gullible people who are falling into this shit whom I know aren't thick. Far from it. It's not just about intelligence, it's also about having some sort of critical thinking ability.

I agree, but as a former cult member "lack of critical thinking ability" and "thick as pigshit" can be very difficult to tell apart

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

My brother has always tended to this sort of thing a bit and his current approach is based around stuff he's read from some slightly qualified bloke who has some sort of vaccine background. It's not that vaccines are all bad, apparently, it's just that this particular one is. His reasoning for it is actually quite dense, detailed and complicated to follow, way more so than a lot of the really mad stuff (which his girlfriend is into) - it's certainly more than I can be bothered to get into refuting. He's not stupid and he's put a lot of time into understanding it but he can't see certain gaping holes in the basic premise.

It's very frustrating tbh.

 

[what]

Anyone tried feeding them their own lines rather than the usual methods of discussion?
You know after a load of crap, tell them they are shepple and they should do their own research etc, not just believe whats on the internet as its run by (insert your choice here)?

 

[existentialist]

If they weren't so sure of themselves I would have more empathy. A great deal of them are narcissistic arseholes, so sure of themselves that they have consistantly put others at risks.

There is a case to argue that narcissistic arseholes are anything but sure of themselves, and are in fact very insecure, with the narcissistic behaviours being compensatory ways of giving them a sense of mattering/belonging/control.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I'm a great believer in enquiring 'cui bono' in any situation.

Why would it benefit Gates to know where you are? Is he going to track 8Bn people?

I can just imagine my tracking report.

Mon - Didn't leave house.
Tue - Didn't leave house.
Wed - Didn't leave house.

You get the picture.

 

[emanymton]

A lot of the gullible people who are falling into this shit whom I know aren't thick. Far from it. It's not just about intelligence, it's also about having some sort of critical thinking ability.

Critical thinking is roughly how I would define intelligence. As much as it can be defined in any meaningful way.

 

[existentialist]

Critical thinking is roughly how I would define intelligence. As much as it can be defined in any meaningful way.

Well, I know that any definition of intelligence is somewhat subjective, but there is no shortage of high performing types who also get drawn into this nonsense. I suspect that it's a lot more about education...

 

[pbsmooth]

My brother has always tended to this sort of thing a bit and his current approach is based around stuff he's read from some slightly qualified bloke who has some sort of vaccine background. It's not that vaccines are all bad, apparently, it's just that this particular one is. His reasoning for it is actually quite dense, detailed and complicated to follow, way more so than a lot of the really mad stuff (which his girlfriend is into) - it's certainly more than I can be bothered to get into refuting. He's not stupid and he's put a lot of time into understanding it but he can't see certain gaping holes in the basic premise.

It's very frustrating tbh.

that's part of the scam, isn't it - making it so complicated and giving the appearance of great amounts of research and data. often it's dodgy sources, out right bollox, but serves their purpose.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

that's part of the scam, isn't it - making it so complicated and giving the appearance of great amounts of research and data. often it's dodgy sources, out right bollox, but serves their purpose.

Oh yeah absolutely. It's the sheer quantity of it - if you got into trying to refute each specific point you'd be bogged down for days and you'd only get just as much coming up behind it.

I think it's just one type though, as I say his girlfriend is way off down the properly barking rabbit hole and she wouldn't put the effort in, it's just one random bit of nonsense after another.

 

[emanymton]

Well, I know that any definition of intelligence is somewhat subjective, but there is no shortage of high performing types who also get drawn into this nonsense. I suspect that it's a lot more about education...

Think I remember reading about an alternative IQ test that working class people tened to score higher in. It was based on being able to detect bullshit.

 

[BigMoaner]

STILL there's people who think the chip gives 5G coverage automatically rather than having it sync within mask range. Idiots.

 

[bimble]

Had a long and difficult conversation with my mum today, whose lunatic young herbalist mate has told her that she shouldn't have the vaccine cos They (big pharma or something) are repressing the Truth.
My mum's 74. She's just finally got her first vaccine invite (not UK). It's so hard this stuff, i didn't do great on the phone cos it's almost impossible as far as i can see to find a way of doing this that isn't basically 'your friend, who you really like, is a dangerous idiot'.
I'm so tired of it, has been really damaging to our relationship this whole covid conspiraloon thing, in its many variations ending hopefully with this the vaccine fight.

 

[Doodler]

There is definitely a rejection of mainstream scientific authority which might partly stem from earlier orchestrated campaigns against climate change science.

 

[muscovyduck]

If you have the patience for it there is definitely something to be gained from trying to empathise with the conspiraloons you come into contact with offline and then pushing back.

I just can't any more. I've taken a mental note of who they are and I stay the fuck away from them. I kept a closer eye on the ones I know for a while, and it turns out this isn't the only way they're dangerous idiots. But I wouldn't have spotted the wider pattern if I hadn't gone looking for it. It's scarily easy to forget these people aren't benign to me and the environments we share.

 

[BigMoaner]

If you have the patience for it there is definitely something to be gained from trying to empathise with the conspiraloons you come into contact with offline and then pushing back.

I just can't any more. I've taken a mental note of who they are and I stay the fuck away from them. I kept a closer eye on the ones I know for a while, and it turns out this isn't the only way they're dangerous idiots. But I wouldn't have spotted the wider pattern if I hadn't gone looking for it. It's scarily easy to forget these people aren't benign to me and the environments we share.

I'm sure a discussion can be had about ASPD,/sociopathy and the wilder ones. To me "I'm right, you're all wrong, and I'll do what I damn want" is pathological when it means the disregard for other safety time and time over. I'm sure I read a study linking sociopathy eith dangerous driving, to me the two "attitudes" are really not worlds apart.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

There is definitely a rejection of mainstream scientific authority which might partly stem from earlier orchestrated campaigns against climate change science.

I think for most of them 'the mainstream' is essentially a monolith. So mainstream science is basically the same thing as the mainstream media, bankers, structural engineers if you want to get a bit retro, etc. So if you can find any issue anywhere in there (which you can obviously) then you're good to crack on and believe some shit on YouTube instead.

 

[BigMoaner]

I think for most of them 'the mainstream' is essentially a monolith. So mainstream science is basically the same thing as the mainstream media, bankers, structural engineers if you want to get a bit retro, etc. So if you can find any issue anywhere in there (which you can obviously) then you're good to crack on and believe some shit on YouTube instead.

I'll put my neck out here and say that "mainstream" media, although has wrecked huge damage, has also had enormous value for societies across the globe. But with the loons it's just meme warfare to get it all degenerated as quickly as possible. Favouring say Barry Bro the Youtube Grifter making 30k a month on shit videos to The New York Times is the new normal for many people.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I'll put my neck out here and say that "mainstream" media, although has wrecked huge damage, has also had enormous value for societies across the globe. But with the loons it's just meme warfare to get it all degenerated as quickly as possible. Favouring say Barry Brow the Youtube Grifter making 30k a month on shit videos to The New York Times is actually morally disugsting in my view.

And just as there is both value and problems with mainstream media, independent/alternative media is both of value and problematic.

And I think we would be in serious trouble if we only had mainstream media to rely on.

 

[souljacker]

It actually annoys me greatly that the loons seem to think that just because I read the guardian and BBC news, I've been duped by the MSM. They seem to think I read them and believe everything they say which is bollocks. I know they have an agenda and I don't necessarily believe everything they write. Even BBC weather should be taken with a pinch of salt FFS.

 

[BigMoaner]

And just as there is both value and problems with mainstream media, independent/alternative media is both of value and problematic.

And I think we would be in serious trouble if we only had mainstream media to rely on.

totally agree - but you post the balanced view. i think when one is replaced by the other it's problematic!

 

[BigMoaner]

there's a great tweet someone posted a while back on her.e

The tweet went something like this:

"Italian doctors are catching covid whilst on duty" - National Union of Italian Doctors

Someone replied "Can we have this from a non mainstream source, please?"

The original twitter responded: "It's from the National Union of Italian Doctors, FFS, would you prefer it came from Michael on Whatsapp?"

 

[WouldBe]

Even BBC weather should be taken with a pinch of salt FFS.

Only a pinch? You'd be better with some seaweed and a pine cone most if the time.